Which Survey Stands

My question involves real estate located in the State of: New Jersey.
I purchased my property in 1992. At time of purchase legal survey was performed. (Hereinafter I will be neighbor #1 with survey "A"). Neighbor #2 had a chain link fence in place in 1992. Survey "A" depicted neighbor #2 fence and presented property line of neighbor #1 as O.O6 in from existing fence. In 1996 Neighbor #1 had own fence installed 12" in from existing chain link fence of neighbor #2. No grievances or disputes with regard to fencing arose until 13 years later - 2009. Neighbor #2 hired surveyor in an attempt to subdivide and sell land. Surveyor claims neighbor # 1 fence is "exactly" 7" on neighbor #2 property. (seven inches - not feet - inches!!) Neighbor #1 recieves letter from attorney with new survey from neighbor #2 and is given 10 days to remove fence that has been in place for 13 years over a supposed 7 inch encroachment. Neighbor #1 replies to attorney with copy of 1992 survey that clearly depicts fence as NOT on neighbor #2 property. No further communication transpires. Neighbor #2 waits until neighbor #1 is not home and chain saws fence down throwing it on neighbor #1 property and installs own fence.

Does neighbor #2 survey automatically override neighbor #1 survey that was adhered to for previous 13 years? If new survey is required, who should pay for it? Can you chain saw someone else's property without first getting court order to establish true property line?

I am shocked, outraged, and perplexed.
PatriciaF

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Does neighbor #2 survey automatically override neighbor #1 survey that was adhered to for previous 13 years?

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no

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If new survey is required, who should pay for it?

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a new survey may not even be required but apparently nobody wanted to take the proper action

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Can you chain saw someone else's property without first getting court order to establish true property line?

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We,, it's obvious they can...after all, they did. I'll bet your question is: can they legally chop the fence down and that would depend on if they were legally in the right.

The problem is; the two of you have conflicting surveys. What you both needed to do is contact your surveyors and notify them of the conflict. They are required to justify their surveys. If they cannot come to a conclusion, then the courts would have decided, if either party had sued to demand a conclusion.

Now, you have retroactive actions and pissed off neighbors.

Call your surveyor and the neighbors surveyor and tell them of the discrepancy. They should seek a remedy between them. If they don't, you can do one of a couple things:

1. accept the neighbors survey

2. disagree with his survey and hire a 3rd survey be done. Take actions based on the result.

3. accept your survey and sue the neighbor for damages. When it gets to court, the court will settle the issue.

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The problem is; the two of you have conflicting surveys. What you both needed to do is contact your surveyors and notify them of the conflict. They are required to justify their surveys. If they cannot come to a conclusion, then the courts would have decided, if either party had sued to demand a conclusion.

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I agree with this approach. But I would take the step of reporting both surveyors to the state board of registration if they cannot resolve the situation conclusively. This will cost you nothing and is worth trying as an intermediate step before proceeding to a lawsuit.

Hello JK,

I have opted, prior to your posting, to pursue your #3 advice. My survey is a legal and binding survey. You mentioned with regard to a new survey that "nobody wanted to take proper action. I can assure you that I followed a reasonable protocol, (obviously presupposing that I was dealing with "reasonable" people), in that I contacted their attorney, sent a copy of my survey, as well as revealing to him the underlying motivation in the threat to remove my fence for a supposed seven inches after 13 years. Neighbor #2 actions were 100% vigilante retaliation for my reporting their six dogs, four of which are pit bulls, to the health department one month earlier. The health department deemed their yard a Public Health Hazard. They had no fence prior to this incident but were very content to use my fence as their own...dog urine included. Prior to their "chain saw masacre" of my fence, I contacted local police and shared the threatening letter from their attorney. The police explained to the neighbor that as long as we both had conflicting surveys, the matter needed to be resolved in court. Clearly I did my best to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. Neighbor #2 disregarded police instructions not to take matters into their own hands and sawed down my fence. I also contacted my surveyor who was clearly disgruntled at having his work from 17 years prior questioned by me. I asked him to verify and he said for $300. he would. I am a single parent raising four children - I do not have "extra" money laying around. Perhaps the court will order him to verify. Either way, we are not savages. We are not to exact vigilante retaliation on others. How can anyone determine the location of a fence now that it has been removed and destroyed? I believe that neighbor #2 is guilty and punishable for taking matters into their own hands.

Hello Land Surveyor,

Thank you for your suggestion. I would welcome the opportunity to report both surveyors. Would you know the proper steps to take in reporting them? My surveyor was very nasty to me on the phone when I asked him to verify. He quite tersely told me that surveys are for building placement not fences. Clearly this was absolutely no help to me. I have his original raised seal survey that clearly depicts my property line using crystal clear measurements from the back of my home, corner markers, and clear measurements from a chain link fence that existed on the neighbors property in 1992 that was later removed with no replacement. My fence was installed professionally using the aforementioned survey. Thank you for your help and input in this matter.

The latest development since my signing a criminal mischief complaint against neighbor #2 is that neighbor #2 signed six complaints against me for harassment and trespassing. Neighbor #2 claims that each time I walked along the back of my property (she omitted the 13 year information in her complaint as well as the seven inches), that I was trespassing on her property. I have put my home on the market. It is beyond my realm of comprehension that individuals can behave this way and the township I live in is providing the platform.

PatriciaF

I agree with Land Surveyor.

Try and contact the surveyor who performed your survey and pass a copy of the conflicting survey of your neighbor to them. Ask your surveyor to try and resolve this issue with the other surveyor.

New Jersey has a 10 year statute of repose for surveyors so you may need to pay your surveyor to update the survey.

If you are having trouble contacting your surveyor you can contact the State Board of Professional Land Surveying to help you track them down.

If the two surveyors can't resolve the issue it might be time to report this matter to the board and/or take legal action.

Good luck and let us know.

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E=PatriciaF;340311]Hello JK,

I have opted, prior to your posting, to pursue your #3 advice. My survey is a legal and binding survey.

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your survey is no more binding than the other survey. You may not be happy with the results but it could go either way as it stands.

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You mentioned with regard to a new survey that "nobody wanted to take proper action. I can assure you that I followed a reasonable protocol,

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the proper action was to have the 2 surveyors be told that there is a conflict with the two surveys.

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The police explained to the neighbor that as long as we both had conflicting surveys, the matter needed to be resolved in court.

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well, there is a step before it gets to court. see above.

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]. I also contacted my surveyor who was clearly disgruntled at having his work from 17 years prior questioned by me

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. too bad so sad for him. His survey is not being questioned by you but by another trained licensed surveyor. He should be more concerned about whose is correct than you telling him there is a problem.

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How can anyone determine the location of a fence now that it has been removed and destroyed?

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all signs of it are gone? Unlikely if it has been there for as long as you state. Even if all signs are gone, a memory lasts for a considerable time. Find landmarks (that will still be around for a bit) and make a drawing showing where the fence was based on those landmarks. This, obviously has no legal force. It is just to be a reminder to you.

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I believe that neighbor #2 is guilty and punishable for taking matters into their own hands.

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actually I have heard of a case where such a person was ticketed for trespass on the neighbors word. I believe that would be stretching things a bit. If there is a dispute, that needs to be resolved before criminal action should ever happen.


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He quite tersely told me that surveys are for building placement not fences.

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there are several different types of surveys and some do not clearly identify a property line. If yours had identified the line, your surveyor is an idiot. A survey is, among a few other things, to identify exactly where the property line is so a person simply knows where that line is, regardless of the reason.

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The latest development since my signing a criminal mischief complaint against neighbor #2 is that neighbor #2 signed six complaints against me for harassment and trespassing. Neighbor #2 claims that each time I walked along the back of my property (she omitted the 13 year information in her complaint as well as the seven inches), that I was trespassing on her property. I have put my home on the market. It is beyond my realm of comprehension that individuals can behave this way and the township I live in is providing the platform.

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If the DA takes this on at the moment, he is a bigger idiot than your surveyor. As I said previously, since there is a dispute, unless the state wants to prove one sides story or the other, they would be best to let this rest until it is decided.

then, since you have a survey showing your side, actually charging you would still be a bit overly aggressive, shall we say, and could put the DA is an awkward position.

Accepting the fact that there are two opposing surveys, and, that each surveyor was in fact notified that there is a discrepency, along with the attorney of neighbor #2 being notified and sent copies of both surveys, I believe the real issue here is that Neighbor #2 was, and is, premature in chain sawing the fence in question. Since the fence was in place for 13 years, what was the big rush in cutting down the fence? Since when do we make ourselves judge and jury? They sawed down the fence 18 days after their surveyor determined my fence on their property by 7 inches. The matter required further investigation. On a purely hypothetical note, lets say for the sake of argument that my fence did veer onto their property by 7 inches, still a reasonable amount of time would be recommended by law to rectify the situation and to determine who is responsible to rectify the situation. Destroying property under the circumstances is criminal. Also, since the fence was installed using the survey from 1992, would the surveyor be responsible to replace my fence if his survey was in fact wrong?

is notice required before taking action?

Honestly, I do not know but look at it this way: if it is my property, why should I be required to give you notice that I want your encroachment removed.

In other words, I would suggest there is no requirement as it would unjustly restrict the rightful owner the enjoyment of their property.

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On a purely hypothetical note, lets say for the sake of argument that my fence did veer onto their property by 7 inches, still a reasonable amount of time would be recommended by law to rectify the situation and to determine who is responsible to rectify the situation.

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it would be the prudent thing to due since an such an action, if incorrect, could result in many thousands of dollars in costs to replace a mistakenly chopped fence. I do not see where the laws would, or even could require a waiting period though. That would amount to a governmental restriction on the use of my property with no justification.

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Destroying property under the circumstances is criminal.

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well, technically, if you are encroaching, you are the criminal. You are trespassing onto their property. If you are in the right, of course it does not apply to you and as such, their actions may be seen as criminal. It will only be decided once the line is determined.

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Also, since the fence was installed using the survey from 1992, would the surveyor be responsible to replace my fence if his survey was in fact wrong?

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this is where that statute of repose comes into play. If DB is correct about the 10 year statute of repose, since 10 years have passed, you would not be entitled to collect, even if he were wrong.

Even without that, collecting from the surveyor would require proof (Another surveyor to stake that surveyors lines) to prove that the fence was within those lines. Since the fence is already many years old, there would be depreciation as well. Not a likely course of action.


the best outcome for you would be for your surveyor to be correct. You then can look to the neighbor for a new fence. She can claim it was her property but since she was aware of a dispute, as I stated previously, the prudent action would be to settle the disagreement prior to any action. Since she failed and was in the wrong, I believe you would be able to hold her responsible for the costs of replacing the fence.

A statute of Repose in no way diminishes the accountability for accuracy on the part of the Surveyor. It has to do with the Surveyors entitlement for fees after a "rest" period. If his survey is inaccurate he is most definately accountable no matter how many years pass.

The law does require a "waiting period" on contested issues. Without such, the floodgates for vigilante justice would be opened.

My fence was installed according to an official survey. I am not a criminal for having a fence installed according to an official survey. My fence is now gone. In its place are two fences installed by my neighbor. One is a wood fence that is spray painted three colors and black graffite only on the side facing my property. The other is a rusted metal fence with rusted metal tri color slats from an old fence. The two fences installed were installed with malice. This is vigilanti retaliation for my reporting their filth and dogs to the health department.

The law apposes exacting our own definition of justice on one and other. By evidence of what was installed in place of my fence, this was never about a supposed seven inch encroachment but more clearly about vigilante retaliation.

Patricia, a few things you might consider.

You said upfront that the survey was performed when you bought the house. Many times a MORTGAGE SURVEY is made for the loan. This is not a true boundary survey. We don't even utilize this vehicle in purchases here in CA. A Mortgage Survey in many ways is an accounting of what's visible and frequently is not officially (or professionally) tied to the boundary.

Second, please realize that if you did get a resolved boundary survey back 13 years ago, and the neighbor gets his recently, and there is a difference between the surveys, then they surveyors need to talk to each other to resolve the boundary.

Boundary surveys are only a surveyor's OPINION based on record, field, and testimony evidence. Monuments may have been distroyed over time, and a second surveyor, many years later, may not have as much evidence to base his determination upon, as the first surveyor did. Then again, the second surveyor may have recovered far more evidence (a more detailed job) than the first surveyor. You don't know. This is why the surveyors should get together to review the evidence that each has, and come to a consenus as to the boundary. Most times the evidence will bring a conclusion.

If there isn't an agreement between surveyors, you may have to take the matter to court.

As far as I've seen in prior boundary cases, a judge usually looks very harshly at a party that takes action and causes damage, without trying to resolve the issue through proper protocol.

The fence should not have been touched until the surveyors reviewed all evidence from both sides. If your surveyor won't assist you (there might be an additional cost for this service), a complaint should be filed with the board.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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A statute of Repose in no way diminishes the accountability for accuracy on the part of the Surveyor. It has to do with the Surveyors entitlement for fees after a "rest" period. If his survey is inaccurate he is most definately accountable no matter how many years pass.

The law does require a "waiting period" on contested issues. Without such, the floodgates for vigilante justice would be opened.

My fence was installed according to an official survey. I am not a criminal for having a fence installed according to an official survey. My fence is now gone. In its place are two fences installed by my neighbor. One is a wood fence that is spray painted three colors and black graffite only on the side facing my property. The other is a rusted metal fence with rusted metal tri color slats from an old fence. The two fences installed were installed with malice. This is vigilanti retaliation for my reporting their filth and dogs to the health department.

The law apposes exacting our own definition of justice on one and other. By evidence of what was installed in place of my fence, this was never about a supposed seven inch encroachment but more clearly about vigilante retaliation.

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then let's see your support there Patricia.

I believe you are wrong on the statute of repose and the "waiting period". If you have some support for your position, by all means, educate us.

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I am not a criminal for having a fence installed according to an official survey

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. I didn't say you were. In fact, I believe I stated quite the opposite.

since you apparently need no more help, I'll let you take it from here.

Best of luck.

Hello Set Mark,

We are on the same page. :) I did a lot of research on the different types of surveys used. The information you offer is confirmed regarding Mortgage surveys and Boundary Surveys. I actually printed the information I researched along with potential "margin of error" statistics and sent it to my neighbors attorney along with my survey PRIOR to their sawing down my fence. Clearly all of my efforts were disregarded. I also faxed my neighbors survey to my surveyor and as I have already stated, my surveyor was seriously terse with me.

Initially this may have been a matter of boundaries. Yet I believe the boundary issue now takes a back seat to vigilante retaliation. I agree with you whole heartedly that perhaps a Judge will look very harshly at the neighbor who took action causing damage without first trying to resolve the issue through protocol. In fact they were advised by local Police prior to sawing down the fence to follow legal protocol.

Currently my surveyor will not assist me. Accepting that there should be fines and penalties to the neighbor that took matters into their own hands, if my surveyor was wrong back in 1992, what happens then? I stand firm in the belief that even if my surveyor was wrong - (that has yet to be established) - the fence should not have been touched until protocol was followed. Even if that meant my moving any part of my fence that intruded by 7 inches. My surveyors unwillingness to confirm his survey has me wondering if he was wrong and knows it?????

Hello again Set Mark,

Just reviewed copy of neighbor's "new" survey. It was based on a 21 year old "Mortgage Survey" performed for the previous owners. "New pins" were placed in the back of their property redefining my fence as 7 inches on their property. Using this survey, and understanding that my fence extended eight panels across the back of their property....two of my eight panels veered 7 inches onto their property. they sawed down the entire fence. Using my pre-existing survey, my fence was entirely on my property. Both surveys are "Mortgage Surveys". I have filed the appropriate complaints with the courts. I will let the Judge decide my next steps. Perhaps he will order the two surveyors to review and conclude....after he fines my neighbor for their savage behavior.

Patricia, you state, “My surveyors unwillingness to confirm his survey has me wondering if he was wrong and knows it…”

You are being presumptive and accusatory to your surveyor, whom you want assistance from. Are you willing to pay him for his time? Have you offered?

If he was hired to perform a mortgage survey, and now you want a boundary resolution, you need to pay for a boundary survey. Is the problem with you not wanting to pay anything else, and not really the surveyor being the issue?

But, besides that, you confirm that you are dealing with mortgage surveys. A mortgage survey is not a boundary survey. BUT, some mortgage surveys do go to the extent where they do include the boundary determination, and even set the corners.

From the beginning you touted “my official survey”. Maybe the neighbor’s mortgage survey is more thorough and included a proper boundary resolution and marking of the corners.

If so, it’s not that your surveyor is wrong. But your possibly using the wrong plat (a mortgage survey) to justify your stance on your boundary. I wouldn’t hold much validity in most mortgage surveys.

You state that you’ve filed paperwork with a court. Remember the judge is going to rule on the evidence that you (and your neighbor) provide. What solid evidence to you have?

You might want to get a Boundary Survey completed prior to your day in court. Be it by your prior surveyor or another get some evidence gathering going or you may find your case won’t be as strong as you seem to indicate.

As far as the Vigilante Retaliation and judges ruling harshly on the one who took destructive action, that’s an observation of prior instances. One can not know what a judge will do.

Remember, by placing the issue before the judge, you have taken the ability to resolve the issue yourself and place the outcome on what a judge can rule on. You may not be happy with his decree, as some times lower courts resolve by equity, not necessarily based on land law and case law.

SetMark,

The only evidence I have is the survey I paid for many years ago. The only survey given to me by my neighbor's attorney was a plat from a mortgage survey performed 21 years ago with added writing on top of it and things crossed out.

I also have the pictures of the most horrific spray painted and rusted metal fencing put in place of my fence.

I am sorry if it appeared that I was supposing with regard to my surveyor. I was actually asking you what you thought with regard to his attitude and unwillingness. In retrospect it is most likely impossible for you to say as you were not on the receiving end of his disgruntled tone.

Of course I would have to pay him for his time. Although there is a case on this very site where the judge ordered the person initially insisting on the discrepency to pay.

I have the police report wherein the police specifically told them NOT to touch the fence without a court order because of the two conflicting surveys.

I would like to be able to cite some actual cases.

I am a single mom raising 4 children and working two jobs. All of this is exasperating to me.

I was told by police on the day they sawed down my fence to sign a criminal mischief complaint against them.

My current survey does clearly depict the property lines complete with measurements and degrees and pins.

I suppose a judge could let them get away with sawing down my fence. It would not be the first time our Judicial System shocked me.

If they were so in the right, why did they wait until I was not home? What if a person legitimately does not have the finances to pay to prove someone wrong? Is justice only for the rich?

Again I ask, if I did have the money for a boundary survey, and, the survey in my possession is incorrect, then that means that my neighbors had the right to saw down my fence without confirming boundaries? They had the right to destroy my property? I would have no option to move it once true boundaries were established?

I never meant to "tout" anything. I just thought a raised seal signed and paid for survey meant something. That's all. No matter what the outcome in court I will always find what the neighbors did to me and my children barbaric.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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Using my pre-existing survey, my fence was entirely on my property. Both surveys are "Mortgage Surveys". r.

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this is why the surveyor said your survey was not for fences. Marker pins are not even set for a mortgage survey generally. Very simply, all it is is to check for visible encroachments of the boundary lines and to set an approximated location of all buildings on the property.


here is a link for the rules for surveyors in Ohio. Obviously you do not live in Ohio but I wanted you to see what a ttypical mortgage survey requires. Since many mortgages are backed by federal money, the rules the fed agencies apply are applied across the country. I would think that Ohios rules will be quite similar, if not the same as New Jersey due to that.

http://www.myerssurveying.com/mortga..._standards.htm

if you read the link, you will see that in certain situations, up to 1/2 foot margin of error is allowed. That comes pretty close to covering your 7 inch problem if a similar tolerance is allowed in NJ in your situation.

So now, if somebody wants to get an honest to goodness boundary survey that is required, in Ohio

http://www.myerssurveying.com/bounda..._standards.htm

, to be within .02 feet margin of error. (that's about 1/4 inch) and most likely similar in your state, then you all can argue about the situation. Until then, if both surveys are mortgage surveys, nobody has accurate enough information to even consider taking this to court.

Thank you for your research and welcomed information. Your angle regarding the differences between mortgage surveys and boundary surveys is exactly what I sent the neighbors attorney PRIOR to the neighbors actions. I also found ample testimony and cited cases on "margin of error".

I believe you are correct when you say that two mortgage surveys do not provide accurate enough information to go to court. This truth would also apply to not having enough accurate information to saw down a fence.

I will continue in research to support my position. It is the action of sawing down the fence and the replacement of that fence with a purely harrassing spray painted fence and rusted chain link fence that is being brought to court. If their position is that the fence was on their property by 7 inches then perhaps the burden of proof lies with them as their defense.

Hopefully I will be well versed with documented research such as what you have offered me by the court date.

I have inquired with surveyors as to the cost of a boundary survey in NJ. They average anywhere between 800. to 1000.

I have also inquired regarding legal representation. An attorney in NJ will "start" the case at $2,500. +

The estimate to replace the fence and remove the chopped up one the neighbor threw in my yard is $2,406.

This leaves me between a rock and a hard place with no option then to continue research and present my case pro se.

Thank you again JK for your time and research

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I believe you are correct when you say that two mortgage surveys do not provide accurate enough information to go to court. This truth would also apply to not having enough accurate information to saw down a fence.

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agreed

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I will continue in research to support my position. It is the action of sawing down the fence and the replacement of that fence with a purely harrassing spray painted fence and rusted chain link fence that is being brought to court. If their position is that the fence was on their property by 7 inches then perhaps the burden of proof lies with them as their defense.

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That would be up to the local authorities. I would hope that they would put some weight into what had been status quo for so many years but the truth is, they may simply defer prosecution until one side or the other provides them with the evidence at no cost to the courts.

You might try bypassing the police and speak directly with the prosecutors office. While the police attempt to make good decisions, sometimes they just miss things because they are geared to do things a certain way. A DA office often looks at things more completely and may see this as a crime and worth the time to deal with it, or at least investigate.

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Hopefully I will be well versed with documented research such as what you have offered me by the court date.

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well, if you haven't PO's the surveyor too bad, he may be a good source for applicable requirements of accuracy of surveys in your state.

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I have inquired with surveyors as to the cost of a boundary survey in NJ. They average anywhere between 800. to 1000

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.sounds very typical

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I have also inquired regarding legal representation. An attorney in NJ will "start" the case at $2,500. +

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"start" is the operative word. This type of case can have some ugly turns in it and things can get expensive and still not really resolve the entire situation.

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This leaves me between a rock and a hard place with no option then to continue research and present my case pro se.

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like I said, you might speak with the DA's office. There may still be hope for a criminal action here yet.

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Thank you again JK for your time and research

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You're welcome

Now that we know that both "surveys" were not surveys at all, you have a clear path to the next step, which is to get a proper boundary survey done.

At $800 to $1000 you have a very low cost survey ahead of you.

jk has provided a link to the Ohio statutes. Let me say that as an Ohio licensed surveyor for 30 years, I have never liked the concept of a "mortgage survey" as I feel that it is a fraud on the public.

The fact that Ohio actually regulates the practice does not make it right.

I'll not continue a rant in this thread as you can search for my specific opinion in earlier threads if you wish.

Now back to your current situation. You have no next step with an attorney or the prosecutor until you get a survey done and have the results.

Please get that done and come back with the results.

Good Luck!

Hello Land Surveyor,

I am writing to you with a question regarding a reply you wrote to a "lastword" back in July in a Boundary & Fence Law thread. (July 23, 2009).
You wrote to this person: "but if you, through your actions/inactions appear to have accepted the fence...the time period could be less"
I am hoping you can recall this train of thought as I believe this would be a significant point in proving my position regarding my fence of 13 years.
I did contact my surveyor from 17 years ago. He sent a man to my home to "confirm" his previous survey. I paid a fee of $300.00. The man he sent explained to me that it appears based on set corners that my fence was in fact within my property line on the easterly side. As the fence proceeded west, it gradually veered onto the property line and eventually - at the fences end - veered onto the neighbors property by approximately 4 - 7 inches. The "encroachment" applied to perhaps one and one half panels and veered slightly to go around a large tree.
My surveyor...whom I paid...(not the man he sent) is refusing to put anything in writing. He has not given me any documentation of any kind for the $300.00 dollars.
I do not know where this leaves me with regard to court.

I think that you just got an update to your previous "mortgage survey".

It's just as worthless updated as it was originally.

You have no next step until you get a proper boundary survey done, documented in writing with a legal description, marked on the ground, and drawn up with a plat (map) showing the location of the fence in relation to the boundary line.

The previous post which you quote regarded boundary by acquiescence, which requires that both parties act in complete agreement as to their common boundary. You don't seem to be in that situation.

Thank you Land Surveyor. Would you know where I might find accepted documentation regarding mortgage surveys vs. boundary surveys? I realize that mortgage surveys are accepted in property sales and purchases. Clearly they are accepted by banks as well. Yet I would like to offer evidence to the judge in this case stating the facts surrounding these two types of surveys. Thank you again for your help.
My "angle" or "approach" in presenting my case to the judge will be the truth regarding these survey types and that in light of this truth, personal property should not have been touched without clear and accurate boundary information.
If the judge agrees that a mortgage survey lacks the accuracy needed to determine true boundary lines then he may also rule that the destruction of the fence was in fact premature and illegal. Determining the boundary after the fact may well be a moot point. As my surveyor said..."how can anyone testify as to where the fence was (within 7 inch accuracy)....when the fence is gone?". They should not have taken down the fence with a mortgage survey (and malicious retaliation) as their only foundation.
As I have stated before, I am a single mom of four children. I work two jobs to feed my family and keep a roof over our heads. I cannot take on an added thousand dollar cost.
Thank you again for all your advice and informative help. :)

Here is a link to what I think you requested:

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4733-38

Dear Land Surveyor,

I want to thank you, most sincerely, for sharing your knowledge and patience with me. I believe the site you offered will be most helpful in proving my case. Thank you again. Would you by chance have the link to NewJersey codes? I will use Ohio's if necessary, I just thought perhaps you might know. I have googled many guesses but keep coming up short. Thank you again.

You are welcome of course.

I cannot envision a judge doing anything in your proposed case in the absence of a boundary survey. The fact that the boundary is unknown simply means that your assertion that the the fence was removed from your property as an act of vandalism or whatever puts you in only a "he said she said" situation. If you cannot afford the cost of a survey, I cannot imagine that will get in front of a judge for more than four or five minutes.

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful here but just attempting to give you a realistic appraisal of your situation. You asked for that.

In the absence of an actual boundary survey establishing your claim, you have no claim and should be so advised, and you are.

Hello again Land Surveyor,

I have not been able to contact you as work has kept me mostly exasperated. I have though been able once in a while to research the current situation. I was able to find extremely helpful New Jersey codes and standards. I thought you might like to peek so I am offering you the website. ACMS.NET - ALTA-ACSM Standards The accuracy standards are listed as 0.07. Is that 8" ? There are also a few interesting articles on that site.
I have been in touch with my neighbor's surveyor...indirectly...who said he never told my neighbor that the entire fence was encroaching by 0.06 but that he said the corner of the last panel encroached. He said he was in no way responsible or accountable for the neighbor's actions and in no way suggested such drastic measures be taken.
I get what you are saying with regard to boundary survey. And without being rude, I must offer, especially when it comes to the law, that there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is motive. There is information used to substantiate actions. etc.
Most all the laws, statutes and codes I have printed as evidence clearly state that one can not, and should not, use a mortgage/location survey to determine accurate property lines. I have also found cited cases where a judge awarded damages based on malicious intent regardless of a 10 or 13 year old encroachment. There is a book called "Neighbor Law; fences, trees, boundaries & noise. Very helpful :) I couldn't believe the laws on "Spite Fences" Wow! In any event, if this case hinges solely on where the property line is then perhaps the judge will order a "boundary survey". But if the case is more than that and the judge agrees that no action should have been taken based on a mortgage survey followed by an obvious spite fence then who knows what will happen. It seems to me that most judges frown on vigilante retaliation. One more question if you wouldn't mind. If the accepted accuracy is 0.07, then can someone remove an 0.06 encroachment legitimately? Just curious. Thank you again for your help and candidness. It is appreciated.

The specification of "0.07' " is seven hundredths of a foot or approximately just under one inch.

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I must offer, especially when it comes to the law, that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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That is certainly true. And all of the cat skinning is done by lawyers. You'll need to be getting one on board if you expect to go to court on the issue you present, regardless of it's merits.

If 0.07 is equal to just under one inch, then what is the specification for 0.06? 0.06 is the specification used by my neighbors surveyor. He wrote: "in locating the rear left iron pin, the corner of the fence is 0.06 over property line of neighbor."

Also, if you wouldn't mind, on my survey the distance measurement for the easterly side of my property is notated as 71.18... can you tell me this specification in laymens terms? The westerly distance measurement from front to back is 74.19. These measurements do not make much sense to me but I am sure they do to you. Thank you in advance for whatever you can offer. The frontage on my property is where the uneven starting points are....if that helps.
The lawyer that I worked for believes I should have no problems presenting my case. Perhaps New Jersey is different from where you are? In any event, taking the "inadequate survey information" approach, (by using a mortgage survey), he believes I have a strong case.
You are unequivocably correct when you say that a boundary survey will offer proof of justification. That works both ways. Since the fence pre-existed for thirteen years, and their is no boundary survey to date, (not on the part of the fence destroyer either) then the inadequate survey information stance is bolstered.
I have N.J.S.A. statutes to support my case. I am still seeking "Common Law" cases to further support my stance. Quite frankly I have very little to lose. My fence is already gone. If the judge rules that human beings can take matters into their own hands and destroy property, then so be it. In the interim I am learning a lot and presenting my case to the best of my ability. My children are also learning. They are learning that you do not have to be a victim simply because you don't have alot of money. They are learning how to thoroughly research all options. Perhaps God will smile on our efforts. Thank you again Land Surveyor for all your intelligent imput :)

0.06' = 3/4"

71.18' = 71' 2 1/8"

74.19' = 74' 2 1/4"

0.01' is one hundredth of a foot. So 0.01' is barely less than 1/8"

1" = 0.08'
2" = 0.16'
3" = 0.25'
4" = 0.33'
5" = 0.42'
6" = 0.50'
7" = 0.58'
8" = 0.67'
9" = 0.75'
10" = 0.83'
11" = 0.92'
12" = 1.00'

Hope this helps.

For those of you who have read this widely-read post, let me add this for those who may think land surveying or legal practice can be a hobby or some kind of a do-it-yourself project.

There is a lot of stuff on the internet now, and you can certainly get advice about how to be your own attorney or land surveyor. None of the advice-givers will be around to help you when you get to court.

You can also learn on the internet how to embalm a corpse or perform an appendectomy on your kid if you think that you need to save the money.

If you think that the licensed professions have no more value, why would you bother to come here and ask them, and then ignore the advice.

Our original poster seems to be headed for court with an "atta girl " from a former employer who will be nowhere near the scene of the action when she attempts to get before a judge. I hope her adversary does not retain a lawyer. If he does the result predicted will not occur.

Appearing pro se is all some of us poor folk can do. I would certainly prefer having an attorney do all the research and represent me and my family in court.

I do not recall minimizing the significance of professionals in any field. The appendectomy metaphor is cruel and uncalled for... nor does it apply. I have been quite frank in my inability to afford an attorney or a new survey.

This does not mean that I should condone, or turn the other cheek to malicious behavior on the part of my neighbor.

There are few surveyors, or attorneys for that matter, who are up front with homebuyers in letting them know that a mortgage survey is quite worthless (and a waste of money) in protecting the buyers interests. Both fields gladly take money from the unsuspecting.

There is no "atta-girl" cheering squad either. Only an attorney who does not mind offering some pro bono input. (even though most of his kind are almost extinct). He does not get hostile if his advice receives consideration along with other advice.

There are some of us who find ourselves between a rock and a hard place when it comes to hiring others to protect us from the malicious behavior of very bad people. In such cases we have every right to defend ourselves to the best of our ability while being sincerely grateful to the professionals who do offer reliable advice free of charge. That is, I believe, the foundation of this site.

No one - especially not me - is minimizing the significance or value of any field or professional within the specified field.


There is a civilized protocol to follow in property line disputes. Chain sawing a neighbors property without a proper survey IS NOT part of that protocol. That is the matter being brought before a Judge, (which a land surveyor is not). Malicious vigilante retaliation is unacceptable no matter where the property line turns out to be.

Eapls 2708:

THANK YOU!

you continue to miss the value, or lack of value of a mortgage survey. It will be essentially meaningless in court. LS suggested you procure an accurate and dependable survey to support your position. You continue to want to rely on a survey for things it was never intended to be used for nor is it accepted by the courts as proof of your contentions.

As to the judge ordering a survey; Chances are he will not order a survey but simply dismiss your claims due to lack of proof. If you are suing, it is up to YOU to provide the proof of your case. It is not up to the defendant to disprove an unsupported claim by the plaintiff.

since you have found an attorney that provides gratis advice, maybe he will also assist you when you present in court. You will not win with your "proof".

There is no value in a mortgage survey in establishing property lines. A mortgage survey is what was used as grounds to saw down a fence, chop up concrete, trespass, and install two "spite" fences. Neither mortgage survey has any value in determining property lines and therefore neither neighbor had the right to act without adequate, accurate information.

If my survey is worthless in this situation...(and I agree that it is)...then so is theirs. Hence they lack justification for the malicious destruction.

I am not sure why you continue to miss the fact that I do not have the finances for a boundary survey. If I do not have the money for a boundary survey, how then would I have the money for an attorney?

A mortgage survey professing to depict new property lines (which in truth is some sketches drawn over top of a 1988 location survey for a $150.00 fee) does not obliterate automatically the survey that has been accepted for 17 years.

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PatriciaF;349873]

If my survey is worthless in this situation...(and I agree that it is)...then so is theirs. Hence they lack justification for the malicious destruction.

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true but you are the one suing so YOU must prove your contention. All they have to do is claim lack of proof and you lose.

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I am not sure why you continue to miss the fact that I do not have the finances for a boundary survey. If I do not have the money for a boundary survey, how then would I have the money for an attorney?

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I think we all understand and realize your position. That does not change the fact the we believe an attorney is still your best direction.

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A mortgage survey professing to depict new property lines (which in truth is some sketches drawn over top of a 1988 location survey for a $150.00 fee) does not obliterate automatically the survey that has been accepted for 17 years.

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especially when there is a dispute, a boundary survey is an absolute requirement. Honestly, it will get you nowhere to make the argument without support (legally reliable support) for your position. As I said before, you have to prove your case. The defendants do not have to prove you are incorrect.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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There are few surveyors, or attorneys for that matter, who are up front with homebuyers in letting them know that a mortgage survey is quite worthless (and a waste of money) in protecting the buyers interests. Both fields gladly take money from the unsuspecting.

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There are plenty of surveyors who refuse to perform or provide Mortgage reports because they are misleading to the general public in that they appear to be drawings of surveys, and since they are prepared by licensed surveyors, most of the general public believe them to be surveys, regardless of any statements present to the contrary.

But when you are buying a property and relying on a realtor or lender to find a surveyor for you, guess what, they will only bring those to you who perform Mortgage Reports because that's the minimum requirement and the product that will keep the closing costs the lowest.

Every surveyor on this forum has said that they are virtually worthless, especially in this situation.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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There is a civilized protocol to follow in property line disputes. Chain sawing a neighbors property without a proper survey IS NOT part of that protocol. That is the matter being brought before a Judge, (which a land surveyor is not). Malicious vigilante retaliation is unacceptable no matter where the property line turns out to be.

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If you approach it that way, not as your "survey" (MR) vs their "survey" (MR), but rather their destructive action against your property based upon inadequate information and against your objections, you may stand a halfway decent chance of prevailing.

I don't know JK's background, he (or she?) may have more relevant experience in court on such matters than I, but I disagree that you are without grounds for complaint. It just depends what the complaint is. If it's presented as a boundary dispute, you're screwed, JK is right, you have insufficient proof of your claim. If it's a complaint about the unjustified destruction of your property, you shift a good portion of the burden of proof to the person who did the destroying to justify their actions. I do agree wholeheartedly with JK that you need legal advice to proceed properly, no matter how you frame the issue.

Much of the advice you've been given here is based upon your having framed this as a property dispute. You obviously have one, but you are not at all prepared to argue that. You may be somewhat prepared to argue a property destruction complaint, and that's what you should be getting advice on.

LS is correct in pointing out that none of us will be with you in court, so you need to get local advice. That may be from your former employer, or you may check with the county court to see if there is a legal aid office for low income citizens. If there is such available, they may be limited to helping you fill out the proper forms, or they may offer limited legal advice by helping you to best frame your issue for the court. It's worth checking into.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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Eapls 2708:

THANK YOU!

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You're welcome.

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=eapls2708;350206]There are plenty of surveyors who refuse to perform or provide Mortgage reports because they are misleading to the general public in that they appear to be drawings of surveys, and since they are prepared by licensed surveyors, most of the general public believe them to be surveys, regardless of any statements present to the contrary.

But when you are buying a property and relying on a realtor or lender to find a surveyor for you, guess what, they will only bring those to you who perform Mortgage Reports because that's the minimum requirement and the product that will keep the closing costs the lowest.

Every surveyor on this forum has said that they are virtually worthless, especially in this situation.

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there is a specific purpose and reason for a mortgage survey and as long as that is what is needed, then there is nothing wrong with a mortgage survey. All parties simply need to understand what a mortgage survey is and it uses and limitations.

what it is actually used for is to benefit the mortgage company (gee, who would have thought with it being called a mortgage survey and all). It's purpose is to reveal encroachments. That is it. That way, if there is an encroachment, the lender can require the situation be remedied before they commit their money to a future problem.




I

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don't know JK's background, he (or she?) may have more relevant experience in court on such matters than I, but I disagree that you are without grounds for complaint. It just depends what the complaint is.

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there is no argument she has a complaint and a valid one from what she states. The problem is proving her case, at least concerning the property line issue. That has been the problem with this from the get go.

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You may be somewhat prepared to argue a property destruction complaint, and that's what you should be getting advice on.

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that actually may be a better tact to take. While both sides may or will dispute the line, I would imagine both sides will agree as to whose property was damaged. That may allow the judge to make a ruling that he couldn't if it was a case about the property line.





Patricia

eapls has a reasonable point. As we have been saying, the line dispute will require documentation that you cannot obtain at the moment. Not faulting you, it is the way it is and that is life sometimes but:

with a simple destruction of property claim, it in itself can be independent of the property line claim. In general, even if I have something of mine setting in a neighbors yard, he has no right to destroy it.

This will not remedy the spite fence but it may be a way to push back for some of his actions.

Sometimes I get too focused on one point that I so not see others. Maybe this will help, maybe not.

best of luck.

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there is no argument she has a complaint and a valid one from what she states. The problem is proving her case, at least concerning the property line issue. That has been the problem with this from the get go.

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And that's been the agreed item from the start of this thread.

I don't know of an attorney who would encourage someone to plow ahead pro se with a pat on the back in such a situation. The potential flip side was never explained to her by her "attorney".

If your good friend is not prepared to represent you pro bono, how can you expect the perfect strangers here to do the same? Cut out the criticism of the responses you have received. We have only been trying to get your attention. The advice given has been to protect you from getting into a legal situation which, as you have said, you cannot afford.

Do you understand the concept of being counter-sued? Did your friend explain that you could lose your case and end up paying for your neighbor's attorney?

How can you afford that if you cannot afford an attorney of your own.

My intention from the start has not been to seem cruel, but to somehow get your attention and protect you from yourself. When I explained early on that you had no issue without a proper boundary survey, which opinion I think was reinforced by later posters, you paid no attention and have disputed it from the start, because you say that you cannot pay for it. Courts have no such issues.

I hope you can prevail in court, and I hope your neighbor just rolls over without an attorney. But he won't need one to simply show up and say that you are wrong in your opinion. Have you thought about where you will be at that point?