Appearing pro se is all some of us poor folk can do. I would certainly prefer having an attorney do all the research and represent me and my family in court.
I do not recall minimizing the significance of professionals in any field. The appendectomy metaphor is cruel and uncalled for... nor does it apply. I have been quite frank in my inability to afford an attorney or a new survey.
This does not mean that I should condone, or turn the other cheek to malicious behavior on the part of my neighbor.
There are few surveyors, or attorneys for that matter, who are up front with homebuyers in letting them know that a mortgage survey is quite worthless (and a waste of money) in protecting the buyers interests. Both fields gladly take money from the unsuspecting.
There is no "atta-girl" cheering squad either. Only an attorney who does not mind offering some pro bono input. (even though most of his kind are almost extinct). He does not get hostile if his advice receives consideration along with other advice.
There are some of us who find ourselves between a rock and a hard place when it comes to hiring others to protect us from the malicious behavior of very bad people. In such cases we have every right to defend ourselves to the best of our ability while being sincerely grateful to the professionals who do offer reliable advice free of charge. That is, I believe, the foundation of this site.
No one - especially not me - is minimizing the significance or value of any field or professional within the specified field.
There is a civilized protocol to follow in property line disputes. Chain sawing a neighbors property without a proper survey IS NOT part of that protocol. That is the matter being brought before a Judge, (which a land surveyor is not). Malicious vigilante retaliation is unacceptable no matter where the property line turns out to be.
Eapls 2708:
THANK YOU!
Which Survey Stands
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09-12-2009, 09:50 AMPatriciaFRe: Which Survey Stands
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09-12-2009, 11:38 AMjkRe: Which Survey Stands
you continue to miss the value, or lack of value of a mortgage survey. It will be essentially meaningless in court. LS suggested you procure an accurate and dependable survey to support your position. You continue to want to rely on a survey for things it was never intended to be used for nor is it accepted by the courts as proof of your contentions.
As to the judge ordering a survey; Chances are he will not order a survey but simply dismiss your claims due to lack of proof. If you are suing, it is up to YOU to provide the proof of your case. It is not up to the defendant to disprove an unsupported claim by the plaintiff.
since you have found an attorney that provides gratis advice, maybe he will also assist you when you present in court. You will not win with your "proof". -
09-13-2009, 12:30 PMPatriciaFRe: Which Survey Stands
There is no value in a mortgage survey in establishing property lines. A mortgage survey is what was used as grounds to saw down a fence, chop up concrete, trespass, and install two "spite" fences. Neither mortgage survey has any value in determining property lines and therefore neither neighbor had the right to act without adequate, accurate information.
If my survey is worthless in this situation...(and I agree that it is)...then so is theirs. Hence they lack justification for the malicious destruction.
I am not sure why you continue to miss the fact that I do not have the finances for a boundary survey. If I do not have the money for a boundary survey, how then would I have the money for an attorney?
A mortgage survey professing to depict new property lines (which in truth is some sketches drawn over top of a 1988 location survey for a $150.00 fee) does not obliterate automatically the survey that has been accepted for 17 years. -
09-13-2009, 12:40 PMjkRe: Which Survey Standstrue but you are the one suing so YOU must prove your contention. All they have to do is claim lack of proof and you lose.Quote:
PatriciaF;349873]
If my survey is worthless in this situation...(and I agree that it is)...then so is theirs. Hence they lack justification for the malicious destruction.
I think we all understand and realize your position. That does not change the fact the we believe an attorney is still your best direction.Quote:
I am not sure why you continue to miss the fact that I do not have the finances for a boundary survey. If I do not have the money for a boundary survey, how then would I have the money for an attorney?
especially when there is a dispute, a boundary survey is an absolute requirement. Honestly, it will get you nowhere to make the argument without support (legally reliable support) for your position. As I said before, you have to prove your case. The defendants do not have to prove you are incorrect.Quote:
A mortgage survey professing to depict new property lines (which in truth is some sketches drawn over top of a 1988 location survey for a $150.00 fee) does not obliterate automatically the survey that has been accepted for 17 years.
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09-14-2009, 04:06 PMeapls2708Re: Which Survey StandsThere are plenty of surveyors who refuse to perform or provide Mortgage reports because they are misleading to the general public in that they appear to be drawings of surveys, and since they are prepared by licensed surveyors, most of the general public believe them to be surveys, regardless of any statements present to the contrary.Quote:
Quoting PatriciaF
But when you are buying a property and relying on a realtor or lender to find a surveyor for you, guess what, they will only bring those to you who perform Mortgage Reports because that's the minimum requirement and the product that will keep the closing costs the lowest.
Every surveyor on this forum has said that they are virtually worthless, especially in this situation.
If you approach it that way, not as your "survey" (MR) vs their "survey" (MR), but rather their destructive action against your property based upon inadequate information and against your objections, you may stand a halfway decent chance of prevailing.Quote:
Quoting PatriciaF
I don't know JK's background, he (or she?) may have more relevant experience in court on such matters than I, but I disagree that you are without grounds for complaint. It just depends what the complaint is. If it's presented as a boundary dispute, you're screwed, JK is right, you have insufficient proof of your claim. If it's a complaint about the unjustified destruction of your property, you shift a good portion of the burden of proof to the person who did the destroying to justify their actions. I do agree wholeheartedly with JK that you need legal advice to proceed properly, no matter how you frame the issue.
Much of the advice you've been given here is based upon your having framed this as a property dispute. You obviously have one, but you are not at all prepared to argue that. You may be somewhat prepared to argue a property destruction complaint, and that's what you should be getting advice on.
LS is correct in pointing out that none of us will be with you in court, so you need to get local advice. That may be from your former employer, or you may check with the county court to see if there is a legal aid office for low income citizens. If there is such available, they may be limited to helping you fill out the proper forms, or they may offer limited legal advice by helping you to best frame your issue for the court. It's worth checking into.
You're welcome.Quote:
Quoting PatriciaF
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09-14-2009, 06:47 PMjkRe: Which Survey Standsthere is a specific purpose and reason for a mortgage survey and as long as that is what is needed, then there is nothing wrong with a mortgage survey. All parties simply need to understand what a mortgage survey is and it uses and limitations.Quote:
=eapls2708;350206]There are plenty of surveyors who refuse to perform or provide Mortgage reports because they are misleading to the general public in that they appear to be drawings of surveys, and since they are prepared by licensed surveyors, most of the general public believe them to be surveys, regardless of any statements present to the contrary.
But when you are buying a property and relying on a realtor or lender to find a surveyor for you, guess what, they will only bring those to you who perform Mortgage Reports because that's the minimum requirement and the product that will keep the closing costs the lowest.
Every surveyor on this forum has said that they are virtually worthless, especially in this situation.
what it is actually used for is to benefit the mortgage company (gee, who would have thought with it being called a mortgage survey and all). It's purpose is to reveal encroachments. That is it. That way, if there is an encroachment, the lender can require the situation be remedied before they commit their money to a future problem.
Ithere is no argument she has a complaint and a valid one from what she states. The problem is proving her case, at least concerning the property line issue. That has been the problem with this from the get go.Quote:
don't know JK's background, he (or she?) may have more relevant experience in court on such matters than I, but I disagree that you are without grounds for complaint. It just depends what the complaint is.
that actually may be a better tact to take. While both sides may or will dispute the line, I would imagine both sides will agree as to whose property was damaged. That may allow the judge to make a ruling that he couldn't if it was a case about the property line.Quote:
You may be somewhat prepared to argue a property destruction complaint, and that's what you should be getting advice on.
Patricia
eapls has a reasonable point. As we have been saying, the line dispute will require documentation that you cannot obtain at the moment. Not faulting you, it is the way it is and that is life sometimes but:
with a simple destruction of property claim, it in itself can be independent of the property line claim. In general, even if I have something of mine setting in a neighbors yard, he has no right to destroy it.
This will not remedy the spite fence but it may be a way to push back for some of his actions.
Sometimes I get too focused on one point that I so not see others. Maybe this will help, maybe not.
best of luck. -
09-14-2009, 08:55 PMLandSurveyorRe: Which Survey StandsAnd that's been the agreed item from the start of this thread.Quote:
there is no argument she has a complaint and a valid one from what she states. The problem is proving her case, at least concerning the property line issue. That has been the problem with this from the get go.
I don't know of an attorney who would encourage someone to plow ahead pro se with a pat on the back in such a situation. The potential flip side was never explained to her by her "attorney".
If your good friend is not prepared to represent you pro bono, how can you expect the perfect strangers here to do the same? Cut out the criticism of the responses you have received. We have only been trying to get your attention. The advice given has been to protect you from getting into a legal situation which, as you have said, you cannot afford.
Do you understand the concept of being counter-sued? Did your friend explain that you could lose your case and end up paying for your neighbor's attorney?
How can you afford that if you cannot afford an attorney of your own.
My intention from the start has not been to seem cruel, but to somehow get your attention and protect you from yourself. When I explained early on that you had no issue without a proper boundary survey, which opinion I think was reinforced by later posters, you paid no attention and have disputed it from the start, because you say that you cannot pay for it. Courts have no such issues.
I hope you can prevail in court, and I hope your neighbor just rolls over without an attorney. But he won't need one to simply show up and say that you are wrong in your opinion. Have you thought about where you will be at that point?