Which Survey Stands

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Quoting PatriciaF

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A statute of Repose in no way diminishes the accountability for accuracy on the part of the Surveyor. It has to do with the Surveyors entitlement for fees after a "rest" period. If his survey is inaccurate he is most definately accountable no matter how many years pass.

The law does require a "waiting period" on contested issues. Without such, the floodgates for vigilante justice would be opened.

My fence was installed according to an official survey. I am not a criminal for having a fence installed according to an official survey. My fence is now gone. In its place are two fences installed by my neighbor. One is a wood fence that is spray painted three colors and black graffite only on the side facing my property. The other is a rusted metal fence with rusted metal tri color slats from an old fence. The two fences installed were installed with malice. This is vigilanti retaliation for my reporting their filth and dogs to the health department.

The law apposes exacting our own definition of justice on one and other. By evidence of what was installed in place of my fence, this was never about a supposed seven inch encroachment but more clearly about vigilante retaliation.

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then let's see your support there Patricia.

I believe you are wrong on the statute of repose and the "waiting period". If you have some support for your position, by all means, educate us.

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I am not a criminal for having a fence installed according to an official survey

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. I didn't say you were. In fact, I believe I stated quite the opposite.

since you apparently need no more help, I'll let you take it from here.

Best of luck.

Hello Set Mark,

We are on the same page. :) I did a lot of research on the different types of surveys used. The information you offer is confirmed regarding Mortgage surveys and Boundary Surveys. I actually printed the information I researched along with potential "margin of error" statistics and sent it to my neighbors attorney along with my survey PRIOR to their sawing down my fence. Clearly all of my efforts were disregarded. I also faxed my neighbors survey to my surveyor and as I have already stated, my surveyor was seriously terse with me.

Initially this may have been a matter of boundaries. Yet I believe the boundary issue now takes a back seat to vigilante retaliation. I agree with you whole heartedly that perhaps a Judge will look very harshly at the neighbor who took action causing damage without first trying to resolve the issue through protocol. In fact they were advised by local Police prior to sawing down the fence to follow legal protocol.

Currently my surveyor will not assist me. Accepting that there should be fines and penalties to the neighbor that took matters into their own hands, if my surveyor was wrong back in 1992, what happens then? I stand firm in the belief that even if my surveyor was wrong - (that has yet to be established) - the fence should not have been touched until protocol was followed. Even if that meant my moving any part of my fence that intruded by 7 inches. My surveyors unwillingness to confirm his survey has me wondering if he was wrong and knows it?????

Hello again Set Mark,

Just reviewed copy of neighbor's "new" survey. It was based on a 21 year old "Mortgage Survey" performed for the previous owners. "New pins" were placed in the back of their property redefining my fence as 7 inches on their property. Using this survey, and understanding that my fence extended eight panels across the back of their property....two of my eight panels veered 7 inches onto their property. they sawed down the entire fence. Using my pre-existing survey, my fence was entirely on my property. Both surveys are "Mortgage Surveys". I have filed the appropriate complaints with the courts. I will let the Judge decide my next steps. Perhaps he will order the two surveyors to review and conclude....after he fines my neighbor for their savage behavior.

Patricia, you state, “My surveyors unwillingness to confirm his survey has me wondering if he was wrong and knows it…”

You are being presumptive and accusatory to your surveyor, whom you want assistance from. Are you willing to pay him for his time? Have you offered?

If he was hired to perform a mortgage survey, and now you want a boundary resolution, you need to pay for a boundary survey. Is the problem with you not wanting to pay anything else, and not really the surveyor being the issue?

But, besides that, you confirm that you are dealing with mortgage surveys. A mortgage survey is not a boundary survey. BUT, some mortgage surveys do go to the extent where they do include the boundary determination, and even set the corners.

From the beginning you touted “my official survey”. Maybe the neighbor’s mortgage survey is more thorough and included a proper boundary resolution and marking of the corners.

If so, it’s not that your surveyor is wrong. But your possibly using the wrong plat (a mortgage survey) to justify your stance on your boundary. I wouldn’t hold much validity in most mortgage surveys.

You state that you’ve filed paperwork with a court. Remember the judge is going to rule on the evidence that you (and your neighbor) provide. What solid evidence to you have?

You might want to get a Boundary Survey completed prior to your day in court. Be it by your prior surveyor or another get some evidence gathering going or you may find your case won’t be as strong as you seem to indicate.

As far as the Vigilante Retaliation and judges ruling harshly on the one who took destructive action, that’s an observation of prior instances. One can not know what a judge will do.

Remember, by placing the issue before the judge, you have taken the ability to resolve the issue yourself and place the outcome on what a judge can rule on. You may not be happy with his decree, as some times lower courts resolve by equity, not necessarily based on land law and case law.

SetMark,

The only evidence I have is the survey I paid for many years ago. The only survey given to me by my neighbor's attorney was a plat from a mortgage survey performed 21 years ago with added writing on top of it and things crossed out.

I also have the pictures of the most horrific spray painted and rusted metal fencing put in place of my fence.

I am sorry if it appeared that I was supposing with regard to my surveyor. I was actually asking you what you thought with regard to his attitude and unwillingness. In retrospect it is most likely impossible for you to say as you were not on the receiving end of his disgruntled tone.

Of course I would have to pay him for his time. Although there is a case on this very site where the judge ordered the person initially insisting on the discrepency to pay.

I have the police report wherein the police specifically told them NOT to touch the fence without a court order because of the two conflicting surveys.

I would like to be able to cite some actual cases.

I am a single mom raising 4 children and working two jobs. All of this is exasperating to me.

I was told by police on the day they sawed down my fence to sign a criminal mischief complaint against them.

My current survey does clearly depict the property lines complete with measurements and degrees and pins.

I suppose a judge could let them get away with sawing down my fence. It would not be the first time our Judicial System shocked me.

If they were so in the right, why did they wait until I was not home? What if a person legitimately does not have the finances to pay to prove someone wrong? Is justice only for the rich?

Again I ask, if I did have the money for a boundary survey, and, the survey in my possession is incorrect, then that means that my neighbors had the right to saw down my fence without confirming boundaries? They had the right to destroy my property? I would have no option to move it once true boundaries were established?

I never meant to "tout" anything. I just thought a raised seal signed and paid for survey meant something. That's all. No matter what the outcome in court I will always find what the neighbors did to me and my children barbaric.

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Quoting PatriciaF

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Using my pre-existing survey, my fence was entirely on my property. Both surveys are "Mortgage Surveys". r.

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this is why the surveyor said your survey was not for fences. Marker pins are not even set for a mortgage survey generally. Very simply, all it is is to check for visible encroachments of the boundary lines and to set an approximated location of all buildings on the property.


here is a link for the rules for surveyors in Ohio. Obviously you do not live in Ohio but I wanted you to see what a ttypical mortgage survey requires. Since many mortgages are backed by federal money, the rules the fed agencies apply are applied across the country. I would think that Ohios rules will be quite similar, if not the same as New Jersey due to that.

http://www.myerssurveying.com/mortga..._standards.htm

if you read the link, you will see that in certain situations, up to 1/2 foot margin of error is allowed. That comes pretty close to covering your 7 inch problem if a similar tolerance is allowed in NJ in your situation.

So now, if somebody wants to get an honest to goodness boundary survey that is required, in Ohio

http://www.myerssurveying.com/bounda..._standards.htm

, to be within .02 feet margin of error. (that's about 1/4 inch) and most likely similar in your state, then you all can argue about the situation. Until then, if both surveys are mortgage surveys, nobody has accurate enough information to even consider taking this to court.

Thank you for your research and welcomed information. Your angle regarding the differences between mortgage surveys and boundary surveys is exactly what I sent the neighbors attorney PRIOR to the neighbors actions. I also found ample testimony and cited cases on "margin of error".

I believe you are correct when you say that two mortgage surveys do not provide accurate enough information to go to court. This truth would also apply to not having enough accurate information to saw down a fence.

I will continue in research to support my position. It is the action of sawing down the fence and the replacement of that fence with a purely harrassing spray painted fence and rusted chain link fence that is being brought to court. If their position is that the fence was on their property by 7 inches then perhaps the burden of proof lies with them as their defense.

Hopefully I will be well versed with documented research such as what you have offered me by the court date.

I have inquired with surveyors as to the cost of a boundary survey in NJ. They average anywhere between 800. to 1000.

I have also inquired regarding legal representation. An attorney in NJ will "start" the case at $2,500. +

The estimate to replace the fence and remove the chopped up one the neighbor threw in my yard is $2,406.

This leaves me between a rock and a hard place with no option then to continue research and present my case pro se.

Thank you again JK for your time and research

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I believe you are correct when you say that two mortgage surveys do not provide accurate enough information to go to court. This truth would also apply to not having enough accurate information to saw down a fence.

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agreed

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I will continue in research to support my position. It is the action of sawing down the fence and the replacement of that fence with a purely harrassing spray painted fence and rusted chain link fence that is being brought to court. If their position is that the fence was on their property by 7 inches then perhaps the burden of proof lies with them as their defense.

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That would be up to the local authorities. I would hope that they would put some weight into what had been status quo for so many years but the truth is, they may simply defer prosecution until one side or the other provides them with the evidence at no cost to the courts.

You might try bypassing the police and speak directly with the prosecutors office. While the police attempt to make good decisions, sometimes they just miss things because they are geared to do things a certain way. A DA office often looks at things more completely and may see this as a crime and worth the time to deal with it, or at least investigate.

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Hopefully I will be well versed with documented research such as what you have offered me by the court date.

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well, if you haven't PO's the surveyor too bad, he may be a good source for applicable requirements of accuracy of surveys in your state.

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I have inquired with surveyors as to the cost of a boundary survey in NJ. They average anywhere between 800. to 1000

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.sounds very typical

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I have also inquired regarding legal representation. An attorney in NJ will "start" the case at $2,500. +

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"start" is the operative word. This type of case can have some ugly turns in it and things can get expensive and still not really resolve the entire situation.

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This leaves me between a rock and a hard place with no option then to continue research and present my case pro se.

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like I said, you might speak with the DA's office. There may still be hope for a criminal action here yet.

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Thank you again JK for your time and research

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You're welcome

Now that we know that both "surveys" were not surveys at all, you have a clear path to the next step, which is to get a proper boundary survey done.

At $800 to $1000 you have a very low cost survey ahead of you.

jk has provided a link to the Ohio statutes. Let me say that as an Ohio licensed surveyor for 30 years, I have never liked the concept of a "mortgage survey" as I feel that it is a fraud on the public.

The fact that Ohio actually regulates the practice does not make it right.

I'll not continue a rant in this thread as you can search for my specific opinion in earlier threads if you wish.

Now back to your current situation. You have no next step with an attorney or the prosecutor until you get a survey done and have the results.

Please get that done and come back with the results.

Good Luck!

Hello Land Surveyor,

I am writing to you with a question regarding a reply you wrote to a "lastword" back in July in a Boundary & Fence Law thread. (July 23, 2009).
You wrote to this person: "but if you, through your actions/inactions appear to have accepted the fence...the time period could be less"
I am hoping you can recall this train of thought as I believe this would be a significant point in proving my position regarding my fence of 13 years.
I did contact my surveyor from 17 years ago. He sent a man to my home to "confirm" his previous survey. I paid a fee of $300.00. The man he sent explained to me that it appears based on set corners that my fence was in fact within my property line on the easterly side. As the fence proceeded west, it gradually veered onto the property line and eventually - at the fences end - veered onto the neighbors property by approximately 4 - 7 inches. The "encroachment" applied to perhaps one and one half panels and veered slightly to go around a large tree.
My surveyor...whom I paid...(not the man he sent) is refusing to put anything in writing. He has not given me any documentation of any kind for the $300.00 dollars.
I do not know where this leaves me with regard to court.