Traffic Court Discovery Requests in California
I recently got ticketed by a CHP for "running a stop sign" or "not coming to a complete stop." However, the truth of the matter is that I had indeed stopped there. I knew the officer would be there, despite the fact that I did not see him. There was no reason as to why I would NOT stop.
Anyways, I have planned to request a trial by written declaration. Since I live in California I decided to use my right to request a discovery to help my case. I truly suspect, though, that the officer ticketed me because he had to meet his quota, or simply felt like ruining someone's night. Either that, or he wasn't paying attention. However, I plan on using the discovery to figure out where he was staying at the time, and to try to make an argument about how the officer's view was obstructed or was likely to make a mistake.
I am using the format from the "Fight Your Ticket in California" book for the request. I am planning on sending it to the CHP office as well as to the DA, as I have heard that the DA is the prosecutor in this case.
The template tells me to include my own notes in the discovery, disclosing all the evidence that I am planning on using in the trial. I have taken pictures of the area, but I am still unsure as to where exactly the officer was staying to observe me. Because of this, I am hoping to take more pictures after I receive my response for the discovery.
That's why this is a problem. I currently do not have all the evidence that i plan on using until the Discovery request comes in. The information help me by telling me what exactly I need to take pictures of. It might even change my argument. After it does come in, and after I update my evidence, do I need to send some type of update to CHP, the DA, and the court about new evidence in order for it to be valid in court?
Another forum thread contained a response stating that I do not need to submit any information from my end unless the prosecutor requests it from me. Is this true?
If someone more experienced in this matter could help me, please do so. Thanks.
One last thing: I plan on sending in my discovery request by mail to the CHP office and DA's office on the same day as my arraignment. Is that a good idea? or is there a more advantageous time to send it in?
Re: Discovery Request Help in California
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Zod
I knew the officer would be there, despite the fact that I did not see him. …
I plan on using the discovery to figure out where he was staying at the time, and to try to make an argument about how the officer's view was obstructed or was likely to make a mistake…
I have taken pictures of the area, but I am still unsure as to where exactly the officer was staying to observe me. Because of this, I am hoping to take more pictures after I receive my response for the discovery.
The information help me by telling me what exactly I need to take pictures of. It might even change my argument.
So you have no idea where he was… You just know he couldn’t have seen you from that spot…
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Zod
I truly suspect, though, that the officer ticketed me because he had to meet his quota, or simply felt like ruining someone's night. Either that, or he wasn't paying attention.
Let me quote a tidbit from the California Vehicle Code:
41602. No state or local agency employing peace officers or parking enforcement employees engaged in the enforcement of this code or any local ordinance adopted pursuant to this code, may establish any policy requiring any peace officer or parking enforcement employees to meet an arrest quota.
So, I suggest that you not mention the “quota” argument in your TBWD.
Now that we‘ve addressed that point, I guess we should also forget about the possibility that he was just doing his job and that leaves us with the presumption that he was intent on ruining somebody’s night… Specifically you!
But why you? And why only charge you with failing to stop at a stop sign? Why not speeding, reckless driving, or fleeing from him before he forced you to stop. I mean any of those would certainly ruin your night much more that just a stop sign ticket.
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Zod
The template tells me to include my own notes in the discovery, disclosing all the evidence that I am planning on using in the trial.
I don’t know what template you’re referring to but nothing in that book suggests that you should include your own notes.
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Zod
Another forum thread contained a response stating that I do not need to submit any information from my end unless the prosecutor requests it from me. Is this true?
That is true.
Re: Discovery Request Help in California
Hi. Thanks for your help. However, I must address that I may have come off wrong when telling my story. I did not mean to be disrespectful to any officers or anybody else. Based on your responses, it seemed that you were a bit disturbed by what I said. I apologize for that. If I'm wrong in believing this, then I apologize again.
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That Guy
So you have no idea where he was… You just know he couldn’t have seen you from that spot…
Yes and no. The stop sign was newly installed in the area. I have heard many stories from friends around the area that were ticketed for that same sign. Because of this, I was extra cautious to make sure that I came to a complete stop. However, the extra caution was not necessary as I always come to a complete stop at every stop sign that I come across and see. I do not do any of those "California stops" or rolling stops (to the objection of all my friends and passengers). I did not see the officer anywhere during the time of my stopping. That did not matter though because I still gave myself a mental "pat on the back" for the practice of good driving habits. It was after I had stopped, and then started driving again for about 100 meters that I was pulled over by the officer and was ticketed, despite the fact that I tried to explain to him that I knew for a fact that I stopped. I still, however, kept calm the entire time despite the fact that my telling the truth fell on deaf ears.
I did not know where he was observing from, but after reading the book "Beat Your Ticket: Go to Court & Win" by David Brown (I read this book before reading FIGHT YOUR TICKET IN CALIFORNIA), it seems that the best argument I have is to somehow show that the officer did not have a very clear view, or was likely to make a mistake. This is the only argument that I feel might work. Otherwise it will simply be my word against his. I read that the judge will likely favor his word.
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That Guy
Let me quote a tidbit from the California Vehicle Code:
41602. No state or local agency employing peace officers or parking enforcement employees engaged in the enforcement of this code or any local ordinance adopted pursuant to this code, may establish any policy requiring any peace officer or parking enforcement employees to meet an arrest quota.
So, I suggest that you not mention the “quota” argument in your TBWD.
I did not mention using this in my trial/argument, nor did I ever intend to. I simply stated that I suspected this. Also, after reading the above mentioned book, I know that this argument definitely won't work. However, thanks for letting me know that bit of information. I guess the quota is a big misconception that has been propagated through the general public. However, is it still possible that quotas are still unlawfully enforced? Possibly to increase city or county revenue?
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That Guy
Now that we‘ve addressed that point, I guess we should also forget about the possibility that he was just doing his job and that leaves us with the presumption that he was intent on ruining somebody’s night… Specifically you!
But why you? And why only charge you with failing to stop at a stop sign? Why not speeding, reckless driving, or fleeing from him before he forced you to stop. I mean any of those would certainly ruin your night much more that just a stop sign ticket.
I am sorry if I offended you with any of my statements. I do not mean to tear down police officers or anything of that sort. Please understand how frustrating this is for me, as I work very hard to follow the law, especially after the ticket that I received 14 months ago. Friends may laugh at how slow I drive, or how I am anal about coming to a complete stop, but I always rebuke them by saying, "it's the law, and I will follow it." This incident was a huge slap on the face for me.
He could not have ticketed me for speeding because I was going 5 mph under the speed limit. I tend to drive slow and stay under the speed limit. I always try to follow the law. Also, it is good for my gas mileage in these hard economic times. Under the assumption that he just wanted to ticket me, he probably gave the stop sign ticket because that spot is a "hot spot" for stop sign tickets. I see people getting pulled over almost every other day that I pass by there. It might even be the same officer. However, please remember that I had also originally put up the possibility that he simply made a mistake as well.
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That Guy
I don’t know what template you’re referring to but nothing in that book suggests that you should include your own notes.
Actually, in chapter 10, page 157, there is a template or example to follow for requesting a discovery. Under section 2b. It gives the option of RELEVANT UNPRIVILEGED WRITTEN OR RECORDED STATEMENTS OF WITNESSES: Because I had immediately written down notes following the incident, I felt that I would be lying by checking "none" and not submitting my information. I personally prefer to not submit information as the element of surprise might be advantageous for the trial. I really need to win this case as I feel that I did nothing wrong, and my insurance will be increased as this is the 2nd ticket I have received in 14 months. Also, the information that I will be presenting for the trial might be different after I obtain the discovery information.
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That Guy
That is true.
Thanks for your help. If I am not obligated to submit any info from my end, then I will not, until requested to do so. I plan on submitting my discovery request on the same day as my arraignment. Is that a good time to do so? or is there a more ideal time for it? I really need to win this trial
Also, please let me know if there is anything else you can help me with. I appreciate it. I apologize again for the previous confusion. I did not put my entire story in my original post because I did not think people were interested in hearing the whole story. I tried to shorten it by putting what I felt were the important details. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Re: Discovery Request Help in California
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This incident was a huge slap on the face for me.
Just to make sure that there is no confusion. I had indeed come to a 100% complete stop during this incident. That is why I am so upset over this.
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However, please remember that I had also originally put up the possibility that he simply made a mistake as well.
Actually, after reading my original post, it turns out that I had forgotten to put this up. I apologize for the mistake. But yes, I also suspect that the officer simply made a mistake while doing his job as well as the other potential reasons I gave. I honestly do not know the true reason why he gave me a ticket when I had done nothing wrong. Perhaps he really did see me run the stop sign. Mistakes do happen.
Please let me know if you have any advice to help me win this case. I could use all the help I can get. Unfortunately, I was unable to find specific information related to a similar case in the books I read. Most of the information is for people who actually committed the violation. Thanks.
Re: Discovery Request Help in California
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Zod
Hi. Thanks for your help. However, I must address that I may have come off wrong when telling my story. I did not mean to be disrespectful to any officers or anybody else. Based on your responses, it seemed that you were a bit disturbed by what I said. I apologize for that. If I'm wrong in believing this, then I apologize again.
I was not disturbed by anything you said. I was merely correcting common misconceptions that people have about quotas as well as trying to explain to you that building a defense upon the possibility that the officer did not see you from his vantage point when, first, you had no idea where he was, and second it could possibly prove to be fruitless considering the fact that officers do write citations as part of the job they were hired to do and nothing else. While there are a few bad apples in every crate, an officer does not make up a violation just “because“, nor does he/she start their shift by deciding to prey on unsuspecting drivers.
Let me also add that I am not an officer, nor am I associated with any law enforcement agency anywhere. Fact is, I have been cited more times that I would ever admit to and have paid through my nose for all the times I had been caught. So I am not here to preach nor am I here to claim I am holier than thou. I am here to offer my opinions and part of my knowledge based on the more than a few times I have tried to contest a citation. That is all.
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Zod
Yes and no. The stop sign was newly installed in the area. I have heard many stories from friends around the area that were ticketed for that same sign. Because of this, I was extra cautious to make sure that I came to a complete stop. However, the extra caution was not necessary as I always come to a complete stop at every stop sign that I come across and see. I do not do any of those "California stops" or rolling stops (to the objection of all my friends and passengers). I did not see the officer anywhere during the time of my stopping. That did not matter though because I still gave myself a mental "pat on the back" for the practice of good driving habits. It was after I had stopped, and then started driving again for about 100 meters that I was pulled over by the officer and was ticketed, despite the fact that I tried to explain to him that I knew for a fact that I stopped. I still, however, kept calm the entire time despite the fact that my telling the truth fell on deaf ears.
I am not doubting whether you stopped or not. If you say you did then you did and I wasn’t there to argue that. But an understanding of what constitutes a “legal” stop is an important element of building your defense.
Here is the California vehicle Code section regulating Stop signs and the driver’s action there:
22450.
(a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.
If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway.
First, if you can confirm that this is the specific vehicle code that you were cited with, then we can continue, otherwise, please state which CVC section you were charged with.
Re: Discovery Request Help in California
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Zod
I did not know where he was observing from, but after reading the book "Beat Your Ticket: Go to Court & Win" by David Brown (I read this book before reading FIGHT YOUR TICKET IN CALIFORNIA), it seems that the best argument I have is to somehow show that the officer did not have a very clear view, or was likely to make a mistake. This is the only argument that I feel might work. Otherwise it will simply be my word against his. I read that the judge will likely favor his word.
While it might be your best argument, it might be meaningless if he was in a position where he was capable of observing your actions. That was my point.
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Zod
I did not mention using this in my trial/argument, nor did I ever intend to. I simply stated that I suspected this. Also, after reading the above mentioned book, I know that this argument definitely won't work. However, thanks for letting me know that bit of information. I guess the quota is a big misconception that has been propagated through the general public. However, is it still possible that quotas are still unlawfully enforced?
Like every other employee, an officer has some duties and responsibilities to his employer. Considering the fact that a CHP officer’s duties and responsibilities are centered around traffic enforcement, then it follows that the number of traffic stops he makes in a day, a week, or a month is part of the way his job performance is evaluated. If you want to call that maintaining a quota then so be it.
I can tell you that a quota, to me, means setting a minimum number of citations that an officer must obtain during a certain period of time. And if he cannot perform up to that quota standard then he will be demoted or worse yet, terminated. I can’t remember the last time I heard about an officer getting kicked off the force because “he never met his quota”…
Keep in mind I said “traffic stops” not “traffic citations”. And whether the CHP keeps track of either or category, I don’t know… point is, and regardless of how many citations the officer writes, he/she is simply doing his job.
Regardless of whether quotas existed or not, and unless you can prove that the officer unjustifiably issued you the citation, the quota argument will get you nowhere with the judge; that is unless you believe that judges are on their own quota system as well.
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Zod
Possibly to increase city or county revenue?
The CHP is a state agency that is funded mainly by the funds collected from vehicle registration fees and it sees very little if anything from revenue collected from traffic citations. So for a CHP officer to put his life on the line in an effort to increase city or county revenue is a pretty ridiculous argument. Don’t you think?
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Zod
He could not have ticketed me for speeding because I was going 5 mph under the speed limit
And by that same reasoning and using the same analogy, he would not have cited you for failing to legally stop at a Stop sign unless you failed to legally stop.
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Zod
Actually, in chapter 10, page 157, there is a template or example to follow for requesting a discovery. Under section 2b. It gives the option of RELEVANT UNPRIVILEGED WRITTEN OR RECORDED STATEMENTS OF WITNESSES: Because I had immediately written down notes following the incident, I felt that I would be lying by checking "none" and not submitting my information.
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If I am not obligated to submit any info from my end, then I will not, until requested to do so.
Read Penal code Section 1054. It will say in there that the information must be requested by the other party before you’re obligated to provide it.
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Zod
I plan on submitting my discovery request on the same day as my arraignment. Is that a good time to do so? or is there a more ideal time for it?
I don’t see why you have to wait until then… But that is your choice.
Re: Traffic Court Discovery Requests in California
Hi. Thanks for your help again. i really appreciate you taking time to give me advice on this.
After checking my citation, I can confirm that the citation Code is definitely 22450 (A), The same one that you quoted:
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Here is the California vehicle Code section regulating Stop signs and the driver’s action there:
22450.
(a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.
If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway.
First, if you can confirm that this is the specific vehicle code that you were cited with, then we can continue, otherwise, please state which CVC section you were charged with.
Based on what I read just read from the code, it appears that I had indeed made a legal stop. Assuming that I am reading it correctly, the code says that a driver approaching a stop sign must stop. Then it clarifies the details of the location the driver must stop. In my case, there were no limit lines or crosswalks. Because of this, I had stopped before entering the intersection at or near where the limit line usually is. I took the liberty of taking pictures of the area to prove the fact that there were no limit lines when the time comes.
Also, some friends of mine have tried arguing that perhaps I did not stop for a duration of time long enough to constitute a legal stop. I believe that my car had come to a complete stop for about 1-2 seconds (only counting the time when the wheels were no longer rolling, not including the deceleration time). The code above does not seem to state anything about duration. Is there another code out there that clarifies this?
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That Guy
While it might be your best argument, it might be meaningless if he was in a position where he was capable of observing your actions. That was my point.
Is there anything else that I can present in my trial that might possibly help my case? So far, the only plan I have, besides my previously mentioned one, would be to explain my "mental checkpoints" for making the stop i.e. knowing the officer would likely be there, knowing the stop sign was there, further depressing the brake to ensure that there is still no change in the acceleration/deceleration (I know, this is a strange one, but its true, i do this), and lastly, feeling the physical phenomenon of my body being pushed forward and then recoiling back by the force exerted once the car ceases motion.
I was also thinking of requesting the officer's records for the number of traffic stops he has done for that particular area. I am hoping that if the number is significantly high, I could argue that the officer had established a strong routine for stopping cars in that area for running the stop sign. It is possible that his sight and judgment were slightly altered by the frequent repetition of looking for those who run the stop sign and then stopping them.
Those are the only arguments that I have. If there is anything else that you would recommend that I do, please let me know. I can use all the help I can get.
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The CHP is a state agency that is funded mainly by the funds collected from vehicle registration fees and it sees very little if anything from revenue collected from traffic citations. So for a CHP officer to put his life on the line in an effort to increase city or county revenue is a pretty ridiculous argument. Don’t you think?
Although the CHP does not directly benefit from writing traffic citations, don't the organizations/officials that have jurisdiction over the CHP, assuming they exist, benefit from them? According to an article linked through the National Motorists Association website http://www.motorists.org/blog/where-...ing-ticket-go/ , a significant percentage of the ticket revenue goes to the state, and county courts. I am not familiar with who has jurisdiction over who, or if there are any other officials that receive the money, but I do think it is possible that those who have influence on the CHP might benefit from the ticket revenue and that they have the ability to influence the CHP to write more tickets. Also, another article that I read through the NMA a few years ago stated that if law enforcement agencies did not get their way, they would simply go on "strike" by refusing to write tickets. The article later stated that city officials "immediately cave in" to their demands as tickets are one of the greatest sources of revenue for the city. I would link the article for you, but I have had no luck finding it again. Please correct me if I am wrong. My sources are limited and I just want to know the truth. Please know that I DO NOT intend on presenting any of these thoughts for my trial. They are just some personal thoughts that I wanted to discuss and to shed some light on. I am also not trying to argue with you in any way. You seem much more experienced in these matters than I, so I simply want to learn more from your knowledge of these matters, and to clarify any misconceptions that i might have.
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And by that same reasoning and using the same analogy, he would not have cited you for failing to legally stop at a Stop sign unless you failed to legally stop.
I would hate to play with words, but I believe that the correct phrase would have been that he would not have cited me... unless he THINKS that I failed to legally stop. Officers make mistakes too, and one explanation would be the one that I wrote above. I do acknowledge that under the same reasoning it is possible that I was the one who made a mistake. However, based on all the mental checkpoints that I used (referred to above), I believe that it would be highly unlikely.
Also, I am quite familiar with the area where the officer was writing citations. In my opinion, it is a very safe area. I have not heard of any incidents of crime around there. I live in a small area where word travels fast. So if there were to be an at that location, I would likely know about it. Furthermore, the officer is possesses a firearm and there are many locals that frequently pass by the area to witness any possible crimes. To me, it really does not seem that the area poses much of a threat to the officer's life. Also, I must add that based on the information received from my local court, the officer is actually from a CHP office about 4 cities away from mine. There is a local CHP office in my city/town, so it would seem unlikely that they were simply short on officers to cover the area. To me, it seems that the officer intentionally traveled 4 cities away for this hot spot. Because he has most likely written so many citations in this area, it would seem that he is quite familiar with the job outlook here, and so he knows that there might not be much threat to his life. Please keep in mind that I am only speculating a lot of this based on my opinions and limited knowledge. I truly have no idea of how the CHP office assigns locations for officers to patrol. Therefore, please do not think that I am making wrong assumptions or that I believe my speculations to definitely be true. I am merely writing these thoughts down to show you what I know, and a lot of what I don't know so that you can see where I am coming from and correct. I am also throwing out possibilities.
Anyways, back to the main point: if you have any advice on what I can do to win this case, please let me know. My family and I will lose a good deal of money to the insurance companies for this incident. That is why I am spending so much time reading and writing about what I can and should do.
Re: Traffic Court Discovery Requests in California
I'm not gonna argue your mental checkpoints, the physics of how your body reacts when you step on your brakes, or re-hash what we've discussed before... You sound confident that you made a legal stop and yet you were issued a citation. Whether it is valid or not is up to the Judge.
If insurance premium rates are your main concern, you do have the option to attend traffic school and that is the ONLY sure way to get the citation dismissed.
Whether you opt to do that or go to trial is your choice. Just keep in mind that if you do choose to go to trial and although the judge cannot refuse to consider the traffic school option based on your decision to go to do so, he is under no obligation to approve your request for traffic school nor is he required to disclose the reason why he is refusing to afford you that opportunity.
Best of luck, and please let us know how it all turns out!
Re: Traffic Court Discovery Requests in California
Actually, I don't have that option. I received a speeding ticket about 14 months ago. It was this ticket last year that compelled me to follow traffic laws so vigilantly now. For this citation, I had attended traffic school. The amount of time that must pass between citations in order for one to qualify for traffic school again is 18 months. Unfortunately, I do not meet that criteria. That is why I am so worried about this case.
I really hope that I win this one. Thanks for your help. I'll make sure to update this thread when the results come in. If you have any other ideas that might help me, such as strategies or arguments I can use for my trial, please feel free to share them with me.
Re: Traffic Court Discovery Requests in California
I am about to submit my discovery request. I just had some last minute questions about the service form that is used as a proof of mail.
1) Am I supposed to attach copies of the service form to the discovery request? or is it only for my own record to present in court when needed?
2) The service form template that I am using from the "Fight Your Ticket in California" Book has the statement: "At the time of service I was... not a party to this legal action." I am planning on having one of my parents sign the form and mail the request. However, the vehicle that I drove, in which I received the citation, was registered under their name. Would that make them a "party of this legal action?" Or would they still be eligible to sign and mail everything?
3) Is the docket number the same as the case number? My courtesy notice only has my citation number and my docket number? When the template for the discovery requests asks for my case number, do they mean the citation number or the docket number?