Attending a Nuisance Party, Underage Consumption

My question involves criminal law for the state of: North Carolina

I have two questions related to this citation.

-What are the laws for having to produce ID within a private residence?

-Is this something that would normally be thrown out by just pleading not guilty?

I was a guest at a gathering at someones apartment. I had not met the owners before the night. An officer knocked on the door while I was in a bedroom browsing the internet on a laptop. There were no more people at the gathering at this time. The officer 'barreled his way into' the apartment (as described by one of the owners) with very unspecified consent. The officer comes into the dark bedroom and immediately asks for identification. I say something to the effect of 'I am not sure of north carolina law for producing identification in an instance such as this' (I say this very politely making sure to use sir etc..). The officer sternly states 'have you ever heard of the term impeding an investigation'. I say no I have not, but I will take note that this is the reason you are asking for identification. I give him my ID.
The officer asks if I have been drinking. I say 'I can't discuss legal matters without a lawyer', again in a non rude manner. Officer goes into the living room and speaks to the owners. I have a mental note of that entire conversation but do not think its important to mention it here. The owners said they had no idea who I was (obviously panicked) and made no mention of alcohol consumption. The officer hands me my ticket and that was the end of it. No breathalizer, no contact with the officer beyond me sitting with my face illuminated by a laptop screen in a dark room.

Thank you very much for any advice that anyone could offer.

Apparently the officer differs with your assessment of what was going on in the house. You, of course, didn't help yourself by choosing to be difficult. We weren't there; my guess is the officer's version is going to be quite different from yours. Get the police report, or have your lawyer get it, and find out what the officer says happened.

Well, I basically chose not to risk incriminating myself which supposedly is not legally evidence and should not be seen as a disrespectful gesture (as far as I know, under law). I was very respectful and was never even asked to get out of the office chair that I was sitting in. Every piece of advice I had ever heard from lawyer types has been. "To never speak to police investigating you without legal representation. Even if you are innocent you can be convicted."

I mean, the story of events that I wrote down was EXACTLY what happened, almost to the letter. I said two or three sentences to the officer. "I'm not sure about north carolina law for having to identify myself" and "I can't answer any questions without a lawyer". The only thing that I am not sure about is what happened outside the front door of the apartment. As in, if the officer asked something like 'do you mind if I take a look around' instead of just walking in. ---I guess my question here would be, what could the officer write on his police report that would incriminate me? How is his account of events more relevant than my own? After all, everyone is under the same oath to tell the truth. Isn't it more up to the state to prove my guilt than for me to prove my innocence?

Hypothetically, if I choose to plead the fifth on the question of 'were you drinking'. That is not evidence of drinking, correct? It would be up to the officer/judge to prove that I was drinking that night correct?

EDIT:
And yes, there was alcohol present in the apartment. Cleaned up beer pong table etc... My argument here is that there is no evidence that I was there to drink alcohol. So basically the only thing that could possibly stick from the officers description would be 'Attending a nuisance party'. What the heck does that even mean? Is that not saying that I am legally responsible for staying away from loud gatherings? That has to go against some form of simple constitutional law, correct?

As you can see I'm pretty passionate and highly annoyed by this whole thing.

I'm just trying to do some research on the net before finding a lawyer, I mean no disrespect.

Keeping quiet is good advice,sometimes ppl can over do it. You could of handed him your id and just say i was no drinking. Atleast just handed him your id b.c you made your self look suspicous or annoy the cop by not showing any id.Then giving your respones.

A lot of states require you to show id if asked,I think.

As far as wikipedia states, NC isn't one of those. I think it may just apply to random checks on the street. Thats why I just made sure to ask. I don't even know if an officer is supposed to advise you of the law if you ask.

I just kept quiet to avoid any possible line of questioning. I'm sure the next question following "I have not been drinking" would have been "You mean to tell me that you weren't drinking when this place smells like beer etc etc...stand up....your shirt smells like beer... blah blah.... still get a ticket+hypocritical lecture"

Just figured I'd update this for other peoples reference.

I ended up getting a lawyer. Charges were dropped after one court date extension. No court costs or other bs.

I wish this site or other sites would actually give people advice on what to do when they go to court. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if I hadn't paid a lawyer, but I feel like the outcome would have been different just because I don't posess a law degree and don't know my way around court.

Lesson: Never talk to the police.

Even with lots of experience, people on message boards CAN'T give hyper accurate advice. We get ONE side of the story - not ALL sides. We get one point of view, no copies of police reports, can't question other witnesses, etc. Trying to give anything concrete wouldn't be doing you a favor - it would prevent you from doing what you did; getting an attorney, who CAN access all these things and work towards a desired outcome for you. No matter how good the board, no matter how good or experienced or detailed the answers, they can only be in generalities. The internet is never going to be a substitute for having an attorney working on your case with two eyes looking at actual reports, taking actual statements, etc.

In other words, sure, we can bake you a cake with no flour, no sugar, and no eggs - but more often than not, even if it looks nice, it'll taste like crap (and will be similarly representative of what any specific case might turn out like).

I'm just saying it would be nice to have concise 'looked up' answers for things that I asked earlier. Like... "what are the laws in nc about requiring you to show id?".... so that when the cop tells me on the stand that he asked for my id and I was hesitant I could say "well according to article blah blah blah I don't have to show it to you under those particular circumstances".

Just something small like, "you were not under investigation because he did not posess a warrant" (don't know if thats true, just an example)... just simple 'out of the book' stuff. I remember trying to dig around google for so long about specific laws for hours and there is simply nothing there.
Its especially true with these small MIP cases. There are no witnesses, its just the judge, the officer, and you. Not many sides to the story. I don't exactly know what the lawyer did, but as far as I'm aware he just talked to the DA and the officer. I honestly feel that the only thing I paid for was to have someone with more authority than a 20 year old kid walk in there and say the exact same thing to them that I would have said.

No real way to tell tho... in the end I'm just glad it worked out. However, the point remains that I'm out of $700 because some asshole cop decided to flex his muscles in a completely immoral and unprofessional manner. (pardon the language)

I would really like to know things about what I can and can't call bs on when an officer questions me. As far as showing identification or other basic rights. There are very few references out there for this type of thing.

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Quoting ytrew

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I'm just saying it would be nice to have concise 'looked up' answers for things that I asked earlier. Like... "what are the laws in nc about requiring you to show id?".... so that when the cop tells me on the stand that he asked for my id and I was hesitant I could say "well according to article blah blah blah I don't have to show it to you under those particular circumstances".


I would really like to know things about what I can and can't call bs on when an officer questions me. As far as showing identification or other basic rights. There are very few references out there for this type of thing.

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As the officer stated, such refusal to show ID, in THIS case, could be impeding an investigation, etc.

If you were approached at this party, and the officer had a reason to believe you to be underage, yes, you are required to show ID.

IF, IF, you are talking about the so called "stop and identify" laws, according to Wiki, no NC does not have one, but that is not to say your local jurisdiction does not. True, this was on the street case law, but in a private residence, it matters not, IF, you are under investigation, as in this case.

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Quoting BOR

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As the officer stated, such refusal to show ID, in THIS case, could be impeding an investigation, etc.

If you were approached at this party, and the officer had a reason to believe you to be underage, yes, you are required to show ID.

IF, IF, you are talking about the so called "stop and identify" laws, according to Wiki, no NC does not have one, but that is not to say your local jurisdiction does not. True, this was on the street case law, but in a private residence, it matters not, IF, you are under investigation, as in this case.

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Ok, thank you very much, this is exactly what I was looking for a while back.

Another question if you don't mind. What exactly defines an investigation? Couldn't an officer say you are under investigation while you are just walking down a street for something that you have no idea about (since we don't have a 'stop and identify' law in nc)?

And if he is investigating 'underage drinking' isn't it up to him to prove that the person being investigated has been drinking before trying to assess if they are under age and not vice versa?

Hypothetically... Would a valid response to 'have you heard of the term impeding an investigation' been 'what am I under investigation for'.... Officer: "Underage drinking" Me:"how do you know I was drinking//I have not been drinking" Officer: "take this breathalizer" Me: "I don't consent to searches etc..."

EDIT:: I'm not trying to say I would be a smartass to the cop or anything. I'm just saying that I envision his job to be to 'protect and serve' and to apply the law in a moral way. Ex: He would have had to see me holding an open container of alcohol or smelled alcohol on my breath before proceeding to 'investigate' me for underage consumption.

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Quoting ytrew

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Ok, thank you very much, this is exactly what I was looking for a while back.

Another question if you don't mind. What exactly defines an investigation? Couldn't an officer say you are under investigation while you are just walking down a street for something that you have no idea about (since we don't have a 'stop and identify' law in nc)?

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An investigation is basically defined as criminal activity being afoot: compare;


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZS.html

The so called stop and identify case, Hiibel, focused on the fact of whether a state could criminalize the refusal to show ID/give a name when a person was "under investigation".


Yes, you could say, if asked in the street "Am I under investigation". If the answer is NO, then you can politely refuse.

As far as hindering or such, it is a basic, if you will, identify law. If you are not under investigation though, you can generally refuse.

Since you were on the "compact premises" when an underage party was taking place, all can be questioned, even adults.

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And if he is investigating 'underage drinking' isn't it up to him to prove that the person being investigated has been drinking before trying to assess if they are under age and not vice versa?

Hypothetically... Would a valid response to 'have you heard of the term impeding an investigation' been 'what am I under investigation for'.... Officer: "Underage drinking" Me:"how do you know I was drinking//I have not been drinking" Officer: "take this breathalizer" Me: "I don't consent to searches etc..."

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Not necessarily, as one is assumed to be in "constructive" possession of the alcohol when attending such party.

Thats definitely great information. I actually noticed that this particular thread started popping up on google search results when I went to search for this stuff... go figure...

So say that you are in a position of having an officer start questioning you at a party, what is the best course of action? (assuming that you are not stone cold sober)

I know this is general and all but I really think it could help... The only thing that I have seen related to this has been the ACLU information out on the net.

EDIT: I apologize for all of the questions, what constitutes an underage party? Of the 5 people left at the gathering (after a bunch of people fled drunk in their cars after seeing the cops I might ad) I am almost positive that 3 were 21 and were the main people being questioned by the police.... is "why am I under investigation for underage drinking?" a valid claim to not having to show ID?

As in, could I claim to the officer that he has no reason to believe that I am underage since the other people at the party are not proven to be underage and/or proven to be over 21; then just keep my mouth/identification shut and take it to court from there? Or is it generally my responsibility to prove that I am 21 when I am around alcohol?

I guess I'm really idealistic about this whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing. I'm just trying to find a concise description of what to do when you are stuck in a similar situation that I was in. A situation that I'm sure many people find themselves in. The 3rd world alcohol laws in this country really do seem like they screw up a lot more college student's lives than they help. So anyone willing to chime in this thread would be great. (apologies to the moderators if this is not the proper place on the board for this type of info).

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Quoting ytrew

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So say that you are in a position of having an officer start questioning you at a party, what is the best course of action? (assuming that you are not stone cold sober)

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Best course of action is, if one is not versed in the law enough to know how to proceed, is to cooperate.

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EDIT: I apologize for all of the questions, what constitutes an underage party? Of the 5 people left at the gathering (after a bunch of people fled drunk in their cars after seeing the cops I might ad) I am almost positive that 3 were 21 and were the main people being questioned by the police....

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An underage party is simply a gathering of those under 21 who are in possession of alcohol. The investigation does not have to be triggered by a reliable informant. A citizen can call in anonomously and say there are underage drinkers at a party. The police then can investigate, but can not not enter the home without a warrant or exigent/emergency circumstances exist to do so.

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is "why am I under investigation for underage drinking?" a valid claim to not having to show ID?

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The WHY, if answered as you ARE under investigation, then focuses/shifts the burden on you to prove otherwise, as I mentioned about "constructive" possession.

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As in, could I claim to the officer that he has no reason to believe that I am underage since the other people at the party are not proven to be underage and/or proven to be over 21; then just keep my mouth/identification shut and take it to court from there? Or is it generally my responsibility to prove that I am 21 when I am around alcohol?

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A person who is not 21 and at a party that any under agers are is deemed a suspect, yes,

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I guess I'm really idealistic about this whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing. I'm just trying to find a concise description of what to do when you are stuck in a similar situation that I was in. A situation that I'm sure many people find themselves in. The 3rd world alcohol laws in this country really do seem like they screw up a lot more college student's lives than they help. So anyone willing to chime in this thread would be great. (apologies to the moderators if this is not the proper place on the board for this type of info).

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There is no concise answer. I say, unless you are versed in law, including your state constitution's seizure/incrimination case law, your best course of action, as said, is to cooperate.

I'm pretty sure a good lawyer can argue against the whole 'constructive posession' law, especially if I was in another room? Atleast thats what the law firm I worked with told me... So assuming that is an arguable defense in court (I guess it was since the charges were dropped), I'm just not getting how I can't argue the same point to the officer? In theory if I carried around a printout of all the local and state alcohol ordinances. What prevents me from pulling them out of my pocket when questioned by an officer and saying "I am not in violation of any of these constructive possession ordinances"? (an extreme case, but just so there are no ambiguities in my question)

What is the law that allows him to suspect me of being under 21? Even if he asks me if I am 21 don't I have the right to not even say a word? How can an officer say that I 'look' under 21 without any formal specific training in identifying persons who are under 21 on looks alone?

Assuming that there is no way out of getting a ticket, would it not be best to just keep everything for court even if it annoys the officer? Or is not showing your identification something more serious and cause to land you in jail for the night and be in much more trouble than a drinking ticket?

What happens if they do take said person away in handcuffs for not saying anything and they remain silent at the station until sober?

Thanks again for the replies. I'm really interested in this stuff...

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Quoting ytrew

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I'm pretty sure a good lawyer can argue against the whole 'constructive posession' law, especially if I was in another room? Atleast thats what the law firm I worked with told me... So assuming that is an arguable defense in court (I guess it was since the charges were dropped), I'm just not getting how I can't argue the same point to the officer?

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You can argue such, there is no reason under the law you can't, true!

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In theory if I carried around a printout of all the local and state alcohol ordinances. What prevents me from pulling them out of my pocket when questioned by an officer and saying "I am not in violation of any of these constructive possession ordinances"? (an extreme case, but just so there are no ambiguities in my question)

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Nothing prevents you from doing so, but where you are, is NOT a court of law, the officer need not arrest/cite you with proof "beyond a reasonable doubt".

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What is the law that allows him to suspect me of being under 21? Even if he asks me if I am 21 don't I have the right to not even say a word?

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"Appearance" is quite subjective. If you go into a store to buy beer, see if the clerk, if they do thier job properly, will not check your ID if you appear to be "under 30/40". Saying a person "looks" 21 will soon get the clerk in trouble for selling beer to a minor.

The "right to remain silent" is not always absolute, as we discussed in the Hiibel case.

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What happens if they do take said person away in handcuffs for not saying anything and they remain silent at the station until sober?

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Until sober?

Had you been drinking then that night? I thought the premise of this was that you were NOT drinking?

He was investigating an alcohol violation. you were in a common constructive area. he wanted to know how old you were and was investigating that. he asked for your id to investigate your age. you did not cooperate. if he was an asshole he would have cuffed you! not given you a ticket!

you are considering allot of "what ifs" so let me ask you this..

what if you just smiled and gave him your id? he may looked at it and said "you're free to go"

if you had cooperated that would have told him that even though you are around alcohol you are still "with it" and do not need any help (from alcohol overconsumption)

really what other choices did he have ?
after you led him down that "nasty" path there could only be a bad ending

let me add this

once i was riding in a car with a friend who was pulled over for weaving.
he was given a field test that was inconclusive.
the police officer asked if i had a drivers license and if i was drinking.
i responded i don't need one to be in a passenger seat!
he said he knew i wasn't diving but wanted to know if i had one anyway.
i thought he was an asshole cop and was trying to trick me somehow.
after several minutes of catty arguing back and forth i found out was he was up to.

if i had a drivers license he was going to let me drive the car AND my friend home.

if i had kept up with the mouthy stuff i would have had to walk home and my friend would be taken in and his car towed. he was not drunk and would have passed the breath test but that would be AFTER i had to walk home and his car was towed.

any chance you may have been in the same situation i was? do you think being standoff-ish made your day better or worse?

Yeah, until sober? I don't really want to get into the specifics of my case but I'm not an asshole just out to get back at cops asking me questions...

@theamazingchan
quick correction. He was investigating noise... I just figured he'd need more evidence besides the presense of alcohol in a living room of an apartment to question someone minding their own business in a bedroom of the apartment.

He asked for my id, I politely handed it to him after asking why he was asking for it. There was no argument there. I'm just asking all of these questions because I'm curious as to what I could have done in the situation. In order to hopefully allow me/my friends to better deal with these situations (I'm almost 21 so it dosen't really matter anymore).

The only reason I pulled the 'silence' card was because.
1. He was incredibly rude and unprofessional barging his way into the apartment screaming 'don't hide'. When there are two girls in the living room mind you... not thugs.
2. He asked me an incredibly rude and manipulative question of "have you been drinking" after he clearly saw my age.

I think his choice should have been to either breathalyze me to determine if I was intoxicated or not, or to let me go (which I would have also refused because I was not driving etc..). I would have expected him to at least follow procedure before making me go through the huge amount of money because he 'thought' I was drinking. If you're going to disrespect my rights and try to give me all of this ridiculous legal trouble for drinking (in nc atleast) then I'm going to be an asshole right back.

I just politely said "I can't speak to you without a lawyer present" and that was that.

To answer your last point... what would you rather take a chance with? Your friend could have easily blown over the limit. If you had been drinking you could have easily been given a ticket. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are nice. I just know that if I was under investigation for anything I'd prefer to save it for court.

Chancing having to spend $400+ and a criminal record because you decided to have a beer is not worth it to me personally... I find it ridiculous.

I do understand that you can also choose to not drink when you are under 21. That's a completely separate discussion.