Attending a Nuisance Party, Underage Consumption

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Quoting ytrew

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Ok, thank you very much, this is exactly what I was looking for a while back.

Another question if you don't mind. What exactly defines an investigation? Couldn't an officer say you are under investigation while you are just walking down a street for something that you have no idea about (since we don't have a 'stop and identify' law in nc)?

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An investigation is basically defined as criminal activity being afoot: compare;


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZS.html

The so called stop and identify case, Hiibel, focused on the fact of whether a state could criminalize the refusal to show ID/give a name when a person was "under investigation".


Yes, you could say, if asked in the street "Am I under investigation". If the answer is NO, then you can politely refuse.

As far as hindering or such, it is a basic, if you will, identify law. If you are not under investigation though, you can generally refuse.

Since you were on the "compact premises" when an underage party was taking place, all can be questioned, even adults.

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And if he is investigating 'underage drinking' isn't it up to him to prove that the person being investigated has been drinking before trying to assess if they are under age and not vice versa?

Hypothetically... Would a valid response to 'have you heard of the term impeding an investigation' been 'what am I under investigation for'.... Officer: "Underage drinking" Me:"how do you know I was drinking//I have not been drinking" Officer: "take this breathalizer" Me: "I don't consent to searches etc..."

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Not necessarily, as one is assumed to be in "constructive" possession of the alcohol when attending such party.

Thats definitely great information. I actually noticed that this particular thread started popping up on google search results when I went to search for this stuff... go figure...

So say that you are in a position of having an officer start questioning you at a party, what is the best course of action? (assuming that you are not stone cold sober)

I know this is general and all but I really think it could help... The only thing that I have seen related to this has been the ACLU information out on the net.

EDIT: I apologize for all of the questions, what constitutes an underage party? Of the 5 people left at the gathering (after a bunch of people fled drunk in their cars after seeing the cops I might ad) I am almost positive that 3 were 21 and were the main people being questioned by the police.... is "why am I under investigation for underage drinking?" a valid claim to not having to show ID?

As in, could I claim to the officer that he has no reason to believe that I am underage since the other people at the party are not proven to be underage and/or proven to be over 21; then just keep my mouth/identification shut and take it to court from there? Or is it generally my responsibility to prove that I am 21 when I am around alcohol?

I guess I'm really idealistic about this whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing. I'm just trying to find a concise description of what to do when you are stuck in a similar situation that I was in. A situation that I'm sure many people find themselves in. The 3rd world alcohol laws in this country really do seem like they screw up a lot more college student's lives than they help. So anyone willing to chime in this thread would be great. (apologies to the moderators if this is not the proper place on the board for this type of info).

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Quoting ytrew

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So say that you are in a position of having an officer start questioning you at a party, what is the best course of action? (assuming that you are not stone cold sober)

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Best course of action is, if one is not versed in the law enough to know how to proceed, is to cooperate.

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EDIT: I apologize for all of the questions, what constitutes an underage party? Of the 5 people left at the gathering (after a bunch of people fled drunk in their cars after seeing the cops I might ad) I am almost positive that 3 were 21 and were the main people being questioned by the police....

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An underage party is simply a gathering of those under 21 who are in possession of alcohol. The investigation does not have to be triggered by a reliable informant. A citizen can call in anonomously and say there are underage drinkers at a party. The police then can investigate, but can not not enter the home without a warrant or exigent/emergency circumstances exist to do so.

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is "why am I under investigation for underage drinking?" a valid claim to not having to show ID?

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The WHY, if answered as you ARE under investigation, then focuses/shifts the burden on you to prove otherwise, as I mentioned about "constructive" possession.

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As in, could I claim to the officer that he has no reason to believe that I am underage since the other people at the party are not proven to be underage and/or proven to be over 21; then just keep my mouth/identification shut and take it to court from there? Or is it generally my responsibility to prove that I am 21 when I am around alcohol?

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A person who is not 21 and at a party that any under agers are is deemed a suspect, yes,

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I guess I'm really idealistic about this whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing. I'm just trying to find a concise description of what to do when you are stuck in a similar situation that I was in. A situation that I'm sure many people find themselves in. The 3rd world alcohol laws in this country really do seem like they screw up a lot more college student's lives than they help. So anyone willing to chime in this thread would be great. (apologies to the moderators if this is not the proper place on the board for this type of info).

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There is no concise answer. I say, unless you are versed in law, including your state constitution's seizure/incrimination case law, your best course of action, as said, is to cooperate.

I'm pretty sure a good lawyer can argue against the whole 'constructive posession' law, especially if I was in another room? Atleast thats what the law firm I worked with told me... So assuming that is an arguable defense in court (I guess it was since the charges were dropped), I'm just not getting how I can't argue the same point to the officer? In theory if I carried around a printout of all the local and state alcohol ordinances. What prevents me from pulling them out of my pocket when questioned by an officer and saying "I am not in violation of any of these constructive possession ordinances"? (an extreme case, but just so there are no ambiguities in my question)

What is the law that allows him to suspect me of being under 21? Even if he asks me if I am 21 don't I have the right to not even say a word? How can an officer say that I 'look' under 21 without any formal specific training in identifying persons who are under 21 on looks alone?

Assuming that there is no way out of getting a ticket, would it not be best to just keep everything for court even if it annoys the officer? Or is not showing your identification something more serious and cause to land you in jail for the night and be in much more trouble than a drinking ticket?

What happens if they do take said person away in handcuffs for not saying anything and they remain silent at the station until sober?

Thanks again for the replies. I'm really interested in this stuff...

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Quoting ytrew

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I'm pretty sure a good lawyer can argue against the whole 'constructive posession' law, especially if I was in another room? Atleast thats what the law firm I worked with told me... So assuming that is an arguable defense in court (I guess it was since the charges were dropped), I'm just not getting how I can't argue the same point to the officer?

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You can argue such, there is no reason under the law you can't, true!

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In theory if I carried around a printout of all the local and state alcohol ordinances. What prevents me from pulling them out of my pocket when questioned by an officer and saying "I am not in violation of any of these constructive possession ordinances"? (an extreme case, but just so there are no ambiguities in my question)

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Nothing prevents you from doing so, but where you are, is NOT a court of law, the officer need not arrest/cite you with proof "beyond a reasonable doubt".

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What is the law that allows him to suspect me of being under 21? Even if he asks me if I am 21 don't I have the right to not even say a word?

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"Appearance" is quite subjective. If you go into a store to buy beer, see if the clerk, if they do thier job properly, will not check your ID if you appear to be "under 30/40". Saying a person "looks" 21 will soon get the clerk in trouble for selling beer to a minor.

The "right to remain silent" is not always absolute, as we discussed in the Hiibel case.

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What happens if they do take said person away in handcuffs for not saying anything and they remain silent at the station until sober?

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Until sober?

Had you been drinking then that night? I thought the premise of this was that you were NOT drinking?

He was investigating an alcohol violation. you were in a common constructive area. he wanted to know how old you were and was investigating that. he asked for your id to investigate your age. you did not cooperate. if he was an asshole he would have cuffed you! not given you a ticket!

you are considering allot of "what ifs" so let me ask you this..

what if you just smiled and gave him your id? he may looked at it and said "you're free to go"

if you had cooperated that would have told him that even though you are around alcohol you are still "with it" and do not need any help (from alcohol overconsumption)

really what other choices did he have ?
after you led him down that "nasty" path there could only be a bad ending

let me add this

once i was riding in a car with a friend who was pulled over for weaving.
he was given a field test that was inconclusive.
the police officer asked if i had a drivers license and if i was drinking.
i responded i don't need one to be in a passenger seat!
he said he knew i wasn't diving but wanted to know if i had one anyway.
i thought he was an asshole cop and was trying to trick me somehow.
after several minutes of catty arguing back and forth i found out was he was up to.

if i had a drivers license he was going to let me drive the car AND my friend home.

if i had kept up with the mouthy stuff i would have had to walk home and my friend would be taken in and his car towed. he was not drunk and would have passed the breath test but that would be AFTER i had to walk home and his car was towed.

any chance you may have been in the same situation i was? do you think being standoff-ish made your day better or worse?

Yeah, until sober? I don't really want to get into the specifics of my case but I'm not an asshole just out to get back at cops asking me questions...

@theamazingchan
quick correction. He was investigating noise... I just figured he'd need more evidence besides the presense of alcohol in a living room of an apartment to question someone minding their own business in a bedroom of the apartment.

He asked for my id, I politely handed it to him after asking why he was asking for it. There was no argument there. I'm just asking all of these questions because I'm curious as to what I could have done in the situation. In order to hopefully allow me/my friends to better deal with these situations (I'm almost 21 so it dosen't really matter anymore).

The only reason I pulled the 'silence' card was because.
1. He was incredibly rude and unprofessional barging his way into the apartment screaming 'don't hide'. When there are two girls in the living room mind you... not thugs.
2. He asked me an incredibly rude and manipulative question of "have you been drinking" after he clearly saw my age.

I think his choice should have been to either breathalyze me to determine if I was intoxicated or not, or to let me go (which I would have also refused because I was not driving etc..). I would have expected him to at least follow procedure before making me go through the huge amount of money because he 'thought' I was drinking. If you're going to disrespect my rights and try to give me all of this ridiculous legal trouble for drinking (in nc atleast) then I'm going to be an asshole right back.

I just politely said "I can't speak to you without a lawyer present" and that was that.

To answer your last point... what would you rather take a chance with? Your friend could have easily blown over the limit. If you had been drinking you could have easily been given a ticket. Not all cops are bad, not all cops are nice. I just know that if I was under investigation for anything I'd prefer to save it for court.

Chancing having to spend $400+ and a criminal record because you decided to have a beer is not worth it to me personally... I find it ridiculous.

I do understand that you can also choose to not drink when you are under 21. That's a completely separate discussion.