Battery Charge That Was Self-Defense

My question involves criminal law for the state of: California

Okay, so here is what happened to me two Friday's ago:

My brother-n-law and another driver got into a fight which I was stuck in between from trying to hold my brother-n-law back. Punches were thrown for a good 10 seconds it seemed (started from the other driver) and for a brief moment they separated. As soon as they did though, the other guy swung a punch at me but missed. I looked at him in surprise and at that time he said, "Oh you mother******s want to jump me!?" And as he said this he was already getting ready to throw another punch at me.

As he stepped toward me, with his right hand about to come at me, I reacted and ducked his punch and threw a right fist at him as well. I knocked him down and once I saw he was disoriented, I didn't do anything else but call 9-1-1 to let them know this guy just attacked my brother-n-law and myself.

To make a long story short with the sheriff's there: I was handcuffed, put in the back of a car, taken to the station (never was I told I was being arrested nor was I read my Miranda rights). Once we got there I asked the sheriff what was going on. He said the following:

"Because [they] weren't there to see what happened and when they did get there, the other guy had the injuries, he had the right to place me under citizens arrest...we are citing you for battery...it will most likely be charged as a misdemeanor."

Once in the station, they took my shots, my finger prints and placed in a holding cell for 6 hours and then released around 6 a.m.

My questions are:

1. Can they arrest me without informing me I am under arrest/citizens arrest?

2. If I was placed under arrest/citizens arrest, can they do this without reading me my Miranda rights? And can he do all of this without asking me my side of the story as to why I hit the guy?

3. How do I prove I was defending myself against this guy with no witnesses other than both families that were there?

-The only thing I have going for me is that I only hit the guy once to get him to stop. The only proof I have with that is the one, and only, injury I have to my right pinky finger.

Sorry for the long thread. That is actually the short version of what happened too. Imagine if I wrote the whole thing...

Please advise though. I would greatly appreciate any and all help. THANK YOU!

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Quoting abstrak

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1. Can they arrest me without informing me I am under arrest/citizens arrest?

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Uh ... what did you think was happening when you were cuffed and stuffed? You were informed about the arrest at the station and then cited out. No foul on that front.

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2. If I was placed under arrest/citizens arrest, can they do this without reading me my Miranda rights? And can he do all of this without asking me my side of the story as to why I hit the guy?

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As for Miranda, 90% of arrests never require this. Miranda is only required when both custody AND interrogation exists. If they interrogated you after you were arrested and try to use those statements against you art trial, your attorney can move to suppress those statements.

The law does not require they conduct a balanced or proper investigation. They SHOULD do so, but they are not required to do so.

However, under CA law they ARE required to accept a private person's arrest (aka a "citizen's arrest"). So, no matter the situation they would have had to accept his arrest.

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3. How do I prove I was defending myself against this guy with no witnesses other than both families that were there?

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Your witnesses will be able to testify in court on your behalf. There is also the possibility that the DA will never prosecute this.


- Carl

Carl,

Thanks for the reply. As for the first question, they actually cuffed my whole family and had two of them in cars while three of us were on the curb. I thought they were just separating me to get everyone's story straight.

As for the second question, I figured so. There was no interogation at the station.

As for #3, would you happen to know how many of these cases actually get tried?

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Quoting abstrak

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Thanks for the reply. As for the first question, they actually cuffed my whole family and had two of them in cars while three of us were on the curb. I thought they were just separating me to get everyone's story straight.

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That's often part of it.

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As for the second question, I figured so. There was no interogation at the station.

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Then Miranda does not apply.

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As for #3, would you happen to know how many of these cases actually get tried?

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I couldn't even guess as to a percentage state wide. Not knowing the evidence makes it even harder. If it is merely one side's word against the other, I suspect that it will not go anywhere. It might get filed and the DA might offer a plea to a lesser offense (one they can prove - such as fighting in public, aka 'disturbing the peace'), or they might drop the matter entirely. In my county this would never get filed ... where I have worked previously (San Diego and Sacramento) I'd give it about 50/50 ... hard to say.



- Carl

Any idea of what happens at court? (i.e. is this going to be like traffic court?)

Is the judge going to ask if I plea "guilty" or "not guilty" and then decide if I say "not guilty" if it will go to trial?

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Quoting abstrak

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Any idea of what happens at court? (i.e. is this going to be like traffic court?)

Is the judge going to ask if I plea "guilty" or "not guilty" and then decide if I say "not guilty" if it will go to trial?

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If the prosecuting authority chooses to prosecute, then that's about how it goes. You go to court and plead guilty, not guilty or in maybe even no contest and then a trial date gets set up.

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Quoting abstrak

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Any idea of what happens at court? (i.e. is this going to be like traffic court?)

Is the judge going to ask if I plea "guilty" or "not guilty" and then decide if I say "not guilty" if it will go to trial?

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As ashman mentioned, the first hearing will be the arraignment where you will be asked for a plea. If you cannot afford counsel, a public defender will also be appointed or applied for at that hearing, too.

- Carl

Let me start by saying this will be nothing like a traffic ticket. It is actually more serious than that. It sounds as though you may be charged with committing a battery. Whether it is charged as a felony or misdemeanor will largely depend on the extent of the injuries involved.

If the case is filed against you, then you will have to appear in court at an arraignment at which time you will want to enter a plea of "NOT GUILTY" because it sounds as though you are claiming this was an issue of self defense and/or defense of others. In any case, you never want to just walk into court and plead guilty. You have nothing to lose by taking time to really understand the situation and explore all your options.

Whether or not the case goes to trial, ultimately depends on if the case can be settled prior to trial by way of dismissal or plea bargain. However, trial is something you don't need to worry about at this stage in the process. You really should consult with a criminal defense lawyer to get some advise as to how you should proceed. Even if you can't afford one, consultations are always free ...there is no harm in getting free advice. A good criminal defense attorney may even be able to prevent the case from getting filed. However, that all depends on the facts of the case.

In any case, it sounds as though there is a lot involved with the incident. I would be happy to speak with you about it if you want.

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Quoting gabrieldorman

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Let me start by saying this will be nothing like a traffic ticket.

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He didn't mean in degree of offense; he was asking if it's procedurally like going to traffic court. As in, I go in, the judge asks me if I want to plead guilty or not. That sort of thing.

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Quoting ashman165

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He didn't mean in degree of offense; he was asking if it's procedurally like going to traffic court. As in, I go in, the judge asks me if I want to plead guilty or not. That sort of thing.

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Yes. This is exactly how I meant for it to be interpreted. Sorry if it didn't come out that way.

I actually talked to a criminal defense attorney for free advice and she said that most cases like these get plea bargained to a lesser offense like DTP (which cdwjava said earlier), if it even gets that far, and is only an infraction on my record, like a traffic ticket.

My concern is I don't want anything on my record. I don't even want a record! I would like to plea not guilty but the way I see it...it's the guy's word against mine, my brother-n-law's and my nephew's. I'm not sure how that flies in court?

I even had to have my finger checked out Wednesday and found out that the joint is severely fractured. 50% of it is broken off. The doctor said that I must have punched the guy with my finger slightly out, due to the way it was fractured. He said that these type of injuries he sees mostly from basketball injuries, like someone trying to catch a pass but "jamming" their fingers from being extended.

So that's somewhat of proof that I didn't even have my hands clinched to hit the guy like I was in a fight. I just reacted quickly to him trying to punch me...twice.

How solid of evidence do you think that is to argue self defense? Remember, I only hit him once to get him to stop and once he was down I didn't pumel him like I was fighting him.

So do I get any kudos for at least calling 9-1-1 and stating that this guy attacked my brother-n-law and myself? Do you think that will help me prove my case?

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Quoting abstrak

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So do I get any kudos for at least calling 9-1-1 and stating that this guy attacked my brother-n-law and myself? Do you think that will help me prove my case?

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It probably cannot hurt.

As for the injury, that may not be relevant as it only shows injury not when and how it was obtained. Plus, battery involves striking someone and not necessarily a strike with a closed fist.

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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It probably cannot hurt.

As for the injury, that may not be relevant as it only shows injury not when and how it was obtained. Plus, battery involves striking someone and not necessarily a strike with a closed fist.

- Carl

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Actually the injury is confirmed because the sheriff took pictures of my finger and hand right before they threw me in the car. Otherwise I don't think they could have proven that I was the one that hit him.

But doesn't an expert hand specialist that says, "you must have hit him with your finger out just like jamming your finger from a baskeball pass", count for something?

Can't I have the Dr. write a statement and use that to prove my case? But more importantly, is it solid enough to prove it?

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Quoting abstrak

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But doesn't an expert hand specialist that says, "you must have hit him with your finger out just like jamming your finger from a baskeball pass", count for something?

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That only confirms you hit him. Remember, the crime of battery does not require a fist, only an unwanted touching. A slap, push, punch, head butt, etc. all can count.

And the written statement of your doctor would generally be inadmissible unless the other side (the prosecution, in this case) were to stipulate to its authenticity. You would have to subpoena the doctor. But, as I said, it wouldn't prove who was the aggressor so I suspect your attorney is not going to be excited about this.

- Carl

So my question is if battery is "unwanted touching", why didn't the other guy get cuffed and cited after everybody's story being the same that he was the aggressor and the one who threw the first punches at my bro-n-law and myself?

On a side note, it's been more than two weeks since the incident and neither my sister or I are in the court system (as far as their court dates and times).

Is there a chance that this thing won't even get that far? Or am I not that lucky? When I called the courts and the public defenders office, neither one could find me or my sister in their system.

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Quoting abstrak

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So my question is if battery is "unwanted touching", why didn't the other guy get cuffed and cited after everybody's story being the same that he was the aggressor and the one who threw the first punches at my bro-n-law and myself?

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I can't say why. Perhaps the other guy insisted upon making the citizen's arrest and no one else did. Sometimes he who complains first gets the citation. But, the DA is still free to file against any or all parties whatever he wishes.

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On a side note, it's been more than two weeks since the incident and neither my sister or I are in the court system (as far as their court dates and times).

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Not surprising. But, unless notified in writing, be sure to show up at court on the date and time on the citation.

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Is there a chance that this thing won't even get that far? Or am I not that lucky? When I called the courts and the public defenders office, neither one could find me or my sister in their system.

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Depending on the size and efficiency of your county's system, it could take a long time to get into the computer system. If the DA rejects the case, you should be notified that you will not have to appear on your cited court date. Very often these sorts of mutual combat affairs are no filed. I'd say there is a better than even chance that the DA will drop it.

- Carl

Carl, thanks for all of your incite! I can only hope that you are right and that the DA doesn't pursue this thing.

So here's an "update" I have with my "problem":

So I called a guy I know who is a Commander for the Bureau of Investigation for the DA's office in another county. He told me with his experience is that these type of MUTUAL combat situations, 9 out of 10 times, get dismissed before you even step foot in the court. He claims that it is due to no evidence of who was the aggressor and who started the fight (which I already know was the other guy) and that there were no witnesses except for both families.

Hopefully this shows a little "light" for someone else who may be involved in a similar situation.

I'll keep you posted as I find out more info.

Typically, yes ... but things sometimes happen that are atypical.

Keep us advised. Thanks!

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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Typically, yes ... but things sometimes happen that are atypical.

Keep us advised. Thanks!

- Carl

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Hey Carl,

I see that you're a Sgt. up in NorCal. Do you happen to know the rules that regulate an officer from handcuffing someone? I can't find it anywhere on the web.

Thanks.

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Quoting abstrak

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Hey Carl,

I see that you're a Sgt. up in NorCal. Do you happen to know the rules that regulate an officer from handcuffing someone? I can't find it anywhere on the web.

Thanks.

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The handcuffs are a tool to aid in the detention of a person. There is no specific law governing their use, but there may be individual agency policy governing their use. In general, if they are necessary to help exercise control over a detained or arrested subject, they are perfectly reasonable.

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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The handcuffs are a tool to aid in the detention of a person. There is no specific law governing their use, but there may be individual agency policy governing their use. In general, if they are necessary to help exercise control over a detained or arrested subject, they are perfectly reasonable.

- Carl

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But what about even before asking me my side of the story? And I was never aggressive nor I was disobedient. If anything, it was the other guy who was the aggressive one while the police were there. I remember him still coming at me while the officers were there and they had to stop him and tell him (twice) to tell him to get back to his car.

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Quoting abstrak

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But what about even before asking me my side of the story?

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If they feel they had a need to detain you in cuffs, then they can do that. There is no bright line rule that says when and under what circumstances they can apply cuffs. There might be some agency somewhere in the country that has these rules, but I am unfamiliar with any such agency.

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And I was never aggressive nor I was disobedient.

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If the officer is outnumbered by people all trying to talk to him, he may very well start slapping cuffs on people and sitting them down before he starts asking questions. The officer's FIRST priority is to establish control and render the scene safe. Everything else comes after that.

The bottom line is that there are no strict guidelines that cover the application of handcuffs in most agencies. It is a tool of control and should only be used in a lawful detention. If you feel you were unlawfully detained or arrested, you are free to file a complaint with the agency employing the officer and to consult an attorney. But, unless the officer had absolutely no reason to detain you then you will likely lose (and if this was a scene of a disturbance, a fight, or some other altercation, articulating reasonable suspicion would be easy).

What is it you want from this situation? You were handcuffed ... you survived. The officer can use handcuffs. You may feel it was uncalled for, but officers have died after being assaulted by uncuffed "calm" witnesses and victims, so the courts grant a great deal of leeway when detaining people - cooperative or not. The last altercation I went to there were three of us and 7 people slapped into cuffs ... before we could ask questions we needed to control the scene. We had 9 people detained and 7 in cuffs ... we ran out of cuffs so 2 were NOT handcuffed.

Handcuffs are tools, but they are not a guarantee of safety, either. I have been headbutted, spat on, kicked, and almost bitten by handcuffed suspects ... so don't be surprised if you might one day get detained in cuffs in the back of a patrol car, or seated on a curb with your ankles out in front of you. Hopefully you won't be involved in anything that requires it, but understand that it can and does happen.

- Carl