My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: California
Northbound H/W 101 near Todd Road in Santa Rosa, CA. Divided highway, 3 lanes both directions, 65 speed limit. Carpool lane restriction 3pm to 6pm, motorcycles OK. Overcast, pavement damp.
I’m commuting home from work in S.F. on my motorcycle @ 4:30pm in the #1 (carpool) lane @ 50 – 55mph following 2 cars. The #2 & #3 lanes are stacked up @ approximately 25 -30mph.
Compact pick-up (red, late 80’s/early 90’s) w/2 occupants moves from #2 into #1 ahead of the 2 cars I’m following. Trying to accelerate, black smoke pours from the exhaust of this lousy running pick-up. Holding my breath to avoid the noxious odor of unburned hydrocarbons, I maintain speed and lane split past all 3 vehicles that had gotten up to about 40.
During this pass I see a CHP SUV move off the shoulder into #3, hit his lights and work his way into #1.
In the lead, I’m at 50, watching the action in my mirror thinking I’m about to see a first! The ticketing of a ‘Gross Polluter’. Silly me. He finally gets around the stinky pick-up, turns off his lights and paces me briefly. He moves in close, lights me up and through his loudspeaker tells me he has my plate #.
After pulling over, he tells me I was passing in an unsafe manner. I asked him about the pick-up and he says didn’t see or smell anything.
He writes me up for 22350, unsafe speed for the conditions, as follows:
Speed Approx; 60 (w/80 crossed out), Max Speed; 65 (w/60 crossed out), Safe; 20 (w/60 crossed out).
I ask 'What about the unsafe passing?' He says 22350 is applicable but he could add unsafe passing if I would like. I decline his offer.
I got this $427 ticket 10/30/08. I got an extension on the 'must appear' date of 2/02/09. I'm now due on 4/02/09.
What do you all think. Do I stand a chance in court?
If so, what's my defense? Self preservation?
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
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03-24-2009, 10:47 AMswannyCVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
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03-24-2009, 12:06 PMEWYLTJRe: CA 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
Certainly you have a chance. Since he wrote 22350 for under the speed limit, he has the burden to prove that your speed created a danger for persons or property. If you were over the limit, it would be your burden to prove that your speed did NOT create a danger.
So, during cross examination, you can simply ask him how your SPEED created this danger. If you are smart and creative in your questioning and most importantly, you make him stick to the issue of your speed creating the danger, you should be able to poke holes in his story.
In case you didn't know, this is the wording of 22350:
Quote:
22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed
greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather,
visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the
highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of
persons or property.
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03-25-2009, 10:11 AMswannyRe: CA 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
Thanks for the advice and encouragement!
I guess a written script of questions will keep me on track.
Any advice there? -
03-25-2009, 10:25 AMEWYLTJRe: CA 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
I think the trick will be to get him talking about the lane splitting issue. Let him dig a hole trying to insinuate that your proximity to the other cars (or something like that) was the hazard. Remember that 22350 says your SPEED has to be the hazard. If he says your speed was the hazard, ask him to explain since you were under the limit. Paint him into the corner of explaining the difference in your situation where the line is between a safe speed and an unsafe speed and how he made that determination. He says on the ticket that 20 was the safe speed, so ask him what the speed of traffic was (you said it was 25-30). If he says 25-30 then you can ask him to explain how the safe speed indicated on the ticket would not make you in violation of VC22400. If he says lower than 25, ask him how he knows that.
Basically, you want to get him to say the "hazard" created was due to something other than your speed. Also, you want to discredit his determination of what the "safe speed" was. -
03-26-2009, 07:14 AMswannyRe: CA 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
Great!
This is exactly what I needed to get started.
Over the weekend I'll post some of the questions I come up with and maybe you'll have time to review them.
Thanks again for your help!! -
03-26-2009, 02:11 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
Given that I am a motorcycle rider in CA, I am very interested in this. This state claims that while lane splitting is not specifically legal, there is no law making it ILLEGAL... so it merely tolerates it with extremely vague guidance as how to do it in a clearly legal fashion.
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07-20-2009, 10:46 AMswannyRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
EWYLTJ,
Finally giving you an update of my case....
After I got my 1st extension from 2/2/09 to 4/02/09, in person, I got 3 more extensions online!
When the 7/06/09 appearance date drew near and I was out of extensions, I applied for a court date with the officer present. It was scheduled for 8/12/09.
Last Saturday I received a letter from the court stating 'Upon judicial review your court date of 8/12/09 has been cancelled. Case dismissed.'
Of course I'm real happy about this, but I sure am wondering what the heck happened?!
Did someone take a really close look at the charge and call B.S.? Did the officer get transferred?
Sorry I can't give a fellow rider better info re:splitting.
The FAQ section of the CHP website does address it as follows:
Can motorcycle riders "split" lanes and ride between other vehicles?
Lane splitting by motorcycles is permissible but must be done in a safe and prudent manner.
Vague indeed......
Thanks again for your help!!!
Swanny -
07-20-2009, 03:20 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
Well... congrats on the ticket being dropped. However, this is indicative of a pattern. I have seen this many times where a cop writes you a ticket for some BS that he knows is not sustainable in court. The hope is that you will just cave in and ask for traffic school (thereby ensuring that the state gets its payoff). But, if you challenge the ticket, they either drop it or just don't show up for court. It's like throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. It is a reprehensible practice that all CA citizens should be outraged about.
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07-20-2009, 03:59 PMThat GuyRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool Lane
As far as I know, an officer cannot drop the ticket once it is filed with the court....
And secondly, with the court date being 08/12/2009, how can we know that the officer opted to "not show up in court"?
Congrats on the dismissal either way... :D -
07-20-2009, 04:50 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneYou are wrong... a cop CAN drop a case. I have had a ticket where I was found guilty in a TBWD and I requested a Trial de Novo. Before the trial date arrived, I got a letter in the mail saying that the cop requested my ticket be dismissed in the interest of justice. And it was.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
Also, I had a friend's ticket dismissed AFTER he was found guilty!!! See my thread here. -
07-20-2009, 05:51 PMThat GuyRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneJim, I find it extremely interesting that you are ~almost~ always preaching that the courts and law enforcement should stick to the laws the way they are written... ~almost~ always complaining about incompetent cops and crooked judges... ~almost~ always acting as a big proponent for justice and equality under the law... And yet when the rules are bent in your favor, or in your friend's favor, then that makes it all good and dandy.Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
A cop, and once the citation is filed in court, is merely a "witness". If you can explain & enlighten me as to what part of the legal justice system in this country gives a "witness" the ability to decide whether a case is worthy of prosecution or not, then I would greatly appreciate it. On second thought, I'll spare you the trouble... No need to explain anything!
Also, let me note that the OP, and his most recent post quoted a letter from the court which stated "Upon judicial review your court date of 8/12/09 has been cancelled." Unless you're gonna also suggest that the cop is also making "judicial decisions" then this decision came from the court NOT from the officer. -
07-20-2009, 08:10 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneQuote:
Quoting That Guy
First of all, I made no comment as to my pleasure or displeasure. I merely commented that I knew it was possible. Second, the cop IS a witness... at trial! However, outside of that, he is still the official who is bringing a charge to the court. He can certainly recant if he likes. Furthermore, in both incidents I described, the cop merely made a recommendation that the charges be withdrawn. The judge made the final decision.
You have a real bug up your butt. Maybe you should try yoga and caffeine free sodas for a while. Geeze... -
07-21-2009, 01:31 AMThat GuyRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneNeither did I. I can't see neither pleasure nor displeasure anywhere in my post.Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
That is different that what you siad in your previous post... Here:Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
Pretty typical of you Jim; as soon as you run out of arguments, you resort to personal insults!!! :rolleyes: Pretty childish, I would say!Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
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07-21-2009, 03:57 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneWow... if you are that desperate to win a war on semantics, I concede... I have experience with a cop RECOMMENDING a case to be dropped. Does that make you happy??? But, I have never seen any statute, rule of court, etc. that says a cop can't drop a ticket.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
You are quite a bizarre case. On some posts, you seem to be very mature, insightful and helpful. On others, it almost seems like you are saying "nana nana boo boo". Take a look at your last few posts.... what the hell is your point??? reall... what is your point??
I don't think I have resorted to personal insults... I merely pointed out the obvious. Anger management really should be in your future.Quote:
Pretty typical of you Jim; as soon as you run out of arguments, you resort to personal insults!!! :rolleyes: Pretty childish, I would say!
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07-21-2009, 05:45 PMThat GuyRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneMuch better, thank you Jim!Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
My question was about a statute, law, rule of court that says that “he/she” CAN. I guess you can't cite any.Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
At least I offer a differing opinion based on the circumstances and the information that is offered in the original post... Whereas you, can only provide the same ridiculous rant about incompetent cops & crooked judges, each and every time and in each and every post.Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
As for the “nana nana boo boo” comment, that is only indicative of how mature you are. If you fail to understand the meaning behind my posts, then skip over them... They're probably beyond your capabilities.
If that isn't the Pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is... Anger Management hasn't helped you one bit with ANY and ALL of your issues... So thanks but no thanks.Quote:
Quoting EWYLTJ
I'm done in this thread... -
07-21-2009, 07:27 PMEWYLTJRe: CVC 22350, Unsafe Speed in Carpool LaneI hope you feel better.Quote:
Quoting That Guy
I cited you two incidents that showed that a cop certainly has the influence to make a ticket go away. If you are so wrapped around semantics to see that the approving authority is irrelevant, then you have lost touch with reality. By the way... you can't show me anything that says a cop CAN'T. So, my demonstration of real practices tips the scale.Quote:
My question was about a statute, law, rule of court that says that “he/she” CAN. I guess you can't cite any.
Well, I think I have posted good evidence concerning incompetent cops and judges as well. That, by definition, removes me from the realm of "ranting". Furthermore, your responses are based on "something you heard" or "what you believe". That's the only place you came up with the idea of cops making tickets go away.Quote:
At least I offer a differing opinion based on the circumstances and the information that is offered in the original post... Whereas you, can only provide the same ridiculous rant about incompetent cops & crooked judges, each and every time and in each and every post.
If you are suggesting that your childish squalling is beyond my capability to endure, I'll agree.Quote:
As for the “nana nana boo boo” comment, that is only indicative of how mature you are. If you fail to understand the meaning behind my posts, then skip over them... They're probably beyond your capabilities.
I agree... you don't know what is.Quote:
If that isn't the Pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.
I really hope you mean that.Quote:
I'm done in this thread...