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Negligent Driving 2nd Degree

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  • 12-18-2008, 04:47 AM
    ai2tman
    Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    My question involves a careless driving ticket from the State of: Washington

    I was driving in my ex-police interceptor on a road that had a 35 mph speed limit. There was a seperation between my and the opposing lanes--I couldn't see the other lane. The other lane was visible when I was approaching an intersection. As I approached and passed the intersection I saw a police interceptor with an officer inside in the opposing lane. I passed another light and on the 3rd light I turned left (giving a ride to the person in the passenger seat). 2-3 seconds after I made that left turn I saw the very same police interceptor with his lights on pulling me. The officer approached me and began the converstion with a sarcastic "tell me you're duty" --referring the crown victoria that I was driving. He told me that I was probably driving 70mph + and that in that short distance of 4 or 5 blocks he had to drive in excess of 100mph to catch up with me assurin me that he could put the numbers in a certain calculation formula to prove to me that I was in fact driving 70mph. Needless to say, there was no radar involved. I requested the officer's notes from the Mercer Island Municipal Court, and one of the things that contradicted the most was the following: "I am confident in my estimation of the suspect vehicle's actual speed was close to triple the actual speed limit."
    I would also add that the road was quite wavy to me it would seem quite impossible to drive over 100mph as the officer claims, with no appearent proof by the way.

    The back of the ticket said I can contest the ticket, and until the court can prove the officer's claims, I won't be charged with anything. With that in mind, should I contest the ticket? Should I get an attourney? What are my overall options and choices?

    Thank you in advance,

    ai2tman.
  • 12-18-2008, 09:02 AM
    blewis
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    The first thing you have to remember is that you are NOT being charged with speeding. The prosecution does NOT have to PROVE you were speeding. You are charged with Negligent Driving. RCW 46.61.525 states (in part)
    Quote:

    Quoting RCW 46.61.525
    (1)(a) A person is guilty of negligent driving in the second degree if, under circumstances not constituting negligent driving in the first degree, he or she operates a motor vehicle in a manner that is both negligent and endangers or is likely to endanger any person or property.
    ...
    (2) For the purposes of this section, "negligent" means the failure to exercise ordinary care, and is the doing of some act that a reasonably careful person would not do under the same or similar circumstances or the failure to do something that a reasonably careful person would do under the same or similar circumstances.

    If the officer's notes state that you were doing three times the speed limit, I'd say that qualifies as an "act that a reasonably careful person would not do".

    If you're eligible and the court allows it, I'd go for a deferral. In any case, an attorney may be your best bet.

    Barry
  • 12-18-2008, 01:37 PM
    ai2tman
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Well how can negligent driving be proven if there is no referrance to speed? Otherwise, how would I have been endangering anybody/property? The officer stating that he is "positive" in me driving three times the speed limit has no basis.
  • 12-18-2008, 04:00 PM
    blewis
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Quote:

    Quoting ai2tman
    View Post
    Well how can negligent driving be proven if there is no referrance to speed?

    I will repeat this ONE MORE TIME! You were NOT charged with speeding. Where, exactly, do you see the word "speed" or "speeding" in the statute?
    Quote:

    Quoting ai2tman
    View Post
    Otherwise, how would I have been endangering anybody/property?

    The officer claims to have visually observed you travelling at three times the speed limit. That's just an estimate, but even if was only TWICE the speed limit, I'd like YOU tell me how that does not endanger EVERY person on the road with you? Including your passenger AND YOURSELF?
    Quote:

    Quoting ai2tman
    View Post
    The officer stating that he is "positive" in me driving three times the speed limit has no basis.

    The officer's statement is "testimony", which, if accepted (and you would have to find some reason for it not to be accepted), is considered "evidence". The prosecution does NOT need to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that you committed the infraction. They only need to show, through a "preponderance" of evidence, that it is "more likely than not" that you committed the offense. If you stand up in court and say "I didn't do it", that's also testimony. Guess who's testimony is likely to carry more weight?

    As I said, go for a deferral -- because, personally, I think you got off easy. Negligent Driving is still only a traffic infraction, Reckless Driving is a misdemeanor. And RCW 46.61.465 states:
    Quote:

    Quoting RCW 46.61.465
    The unlawful operation of a vehicle in excess of the maximum lawful speeds provided in this chapter at the point of operation and under the circumstances described shall be prima facie evidence of the operation of a motor vehicle in a reckless manner by the operator thereof.

    That's up to a year in jail and a $5,000 fine.
    Barry
  • 12-19-2008, 10:11 AM
    ai2tman
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Thanks for the helpful information. But for next time I hope your tone of harshness would be a little lighter, since not everyone is "well versed" in law as you are.

    I do appreciate the help though.
  • 12-19-2008, 01:24 PM
    blewis
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    You're welcome. Sorry if I sounded harsh -- but I'm the father of 5 and I don't appreciate people who drive 70+ in a 35 zone.

    Two more questions though. 1) Is there anything else in the officer's notes that would indicate "negligence" on your part? In other words, was your speed the ONLY thing mentioned, no swerving, multiple lane changes, etc.?

    2) Are you eligible for a deferral (i.e. none in the past seven years)?

    Barry
  • 12-20-2008, 12:29 AM
    ai2tman
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    As a new/young driver I was foolish enough to get a ticket more than 2 years ago, and I used a deferral for that. But for more than two years I've been on top of things and taking any chances at all with speed and/or other negligence on my road.

    To answer your first question, the reason I stressed proving the speed part is because really there was no other way that I "supposedly" showed negligence. No swerving or lane changes, and not a single car while I was on that road.
    I don't know if this relevant for you, but another reason I stressed the speed is because the officer stated he was confident that I was driving triple he speed limit, which would 100+ mph, and then he says he had to drive 100+ mph just to catch up to me, which to me it didn't make much sense because he wouldn't be able to catch up with me at all if we both drive pretty much at the same speed. Plus given was the wavy road, I cannot even imagine for 100mph to be possible.

    What do you think now, since the speed was the only thing mentioned in the notes?

    ai2tman
  • 12-20-2008, 09:53 AM
    blewis
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Here is what I was thinking:

    1) The only "testimony" concerning your Negligent Driving concerns your speed.

    2) The only "testimony" concerning your speed is the officer's visual estimation.

    3) Before evidence of the officer's visual estimation can be introduced, the prosecution must establish a "foundation" showing that the officer's visual estimates are reliable. This can be done by citing the officer's training and experience.

    4) So the question becomes: If the officer's statement does not include any other information about his training or experience, does the statement "I am confident in my estimation of the suspect vehicle's actual speed...." constitute a sufficient foundation for the introduction of evidence relating to speed? In my opinion it would not -- but I've certainly been know to be wrong on MANY occasions.

    Now, please understand that I am NOT an attorney, and this approach -- if it's even valid -- requires a formal understanding of the law. Knowing when and how to object to this evidence is critical. Remember, an objection which is not timely made is considered waived.

    One last point, I did some searching for case law which might support this approach. The only thing I found was an unpublished opinion (which is not binding nor citable). However, this one went against the defendant -- in a situation very similar to yours.

    So, if you want to contest this, I'd advise getting a good attorney. You may end up paying more than the $550 ticket, but, if you win, it won't go on your record and it won't affect your insurance.

    Barry
  • 06-10-2015, 03:04 PM
    ai2tman
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Barry, thank you for your help back then, I truly appreciated it. I'm proud to say I had fought that ticket myself, won the case, and it was dropped. And if it means much to you now, I'd like for you to know that I've grown a lot as a driver and as a person.
  • 06-11-2015, 07:37 PM
    Speedy Gonzalez
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    7 years late, but thanks for the follow up. :cool:
  • 06-12-2015, 01:06 AM
    ai2tman
    Re: Negligent Driving 2nd Degree
    Yes! XD
    I was surprised to be able to post in this very thread 7 years later hehe
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