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Can the State Require You to Carry ID Even When Not Driving

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  • 01-01-2009, 03:51 AM
    BOR
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting MorningCoffee
    View Post
    Virginia v Moore, seems to give them an end around on anything they do, the end justifies the means.


    The Moore decision was based on the 4th AM, even IF state law was violated. IF it was based SOLEY on state law, absent what the VA SC based it's findings on, then the SC would not have subject matter jurisdiction to grant certiorari.

    Headnote:

    Ultimately, the Virginia Supreme Court reversed, reasoning that the search violated the Fourth Amendment because the arresting officers should have issued a citation under state law, and the Fourth Amendment does not permit search incident to citation.

    Held: The police did not violate the Fourth Amendment when they made an arrest that was based on probable cause but prohibited by state law, or when they performed a search incident to the arrest. Pp. 3–13.



    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-1082.ZS.html


    The infamous Robinette case here outlines this doctrine in great analysis. You can read the whole opinion also, I cite the syllabus.

    Held:

    1. This Court has jurisdiction to review the Ohio Supreme Court's decision. The contention that jurisdiction is lacking because the Ohio decision rested in part upon the State Constitution is rejected under Michigan v. Long, 463 U.S. 1032, 1040-1041. Although the opinion below mentions the Ohio Constitution in passing, it clearly relies on federal law, discussing and citing federal cases almost exclusively.


    http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-891.ZS.html


    Quote:

    You will love this BOR, here is how RI treats the constitutional law, this was a big issue in the state which has adopted e-verify and some other mandates that were found illegal elsewhere.

    http://sweetness-light.com/archive/a...sting-illegals

    Whenever you read of the ACLU filing suit, it can generally be found on thier web page. Here is an article discussing the link and you can click on the Federal Court's ruling in the prefatory sentence. It was just handed down on dec. 30th. Interesting decision.



    As you see, although it does NOT mention Hiibel, it cited Florida v. Bostick and INS Delgado as authority to "request" identification. There was NO mandate to produce ID, but simply a request. These 2 case are mentioned in Hiibel.


    As stated in the thread earlier, a MANDATE is another constitutional item. See page 16, count 6, for a discussion of this and the RI Constitution as to simply requesting ID.

    As you saw in the case law I cited for that MA statute, the MA constitution forbids a passenger be requested to show ID unless under suspicion, etc.



    http://www.riaclu.org/20081231.htm
  • 01-01-2009, 04:03 AM
    BOR
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting MorningCoffee
    View Post
    BOR, I'd be curious for your opinion on how Moore plays into this type of thing, for instance a bad stop or an illegal id check under Moore wouldn't negate any evidence found as a result of those which under Moore seem to become technicalities.

    Would Hiibel over ride Moore or ??

    Thanks.

    Although not mentioned in MOORE, the Exclusionary Rule of the 4th AM is applicable to the states, see Mapp v. Ohio.

    IF a seizure was a direct byproduct of a 4th AM violation, the evidence must be suppressed.

    IF the federal constitution permits a stop but that state constitution forbids it, then it is soley a state matter of evidence exclusion.

    "STATUTORY" violations and contraband found as a result of it, are generally NOT subject to the exclusionary rule.
  • 01-02-2009, 05:24 PM
    MorningCoffee
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Based on everything I'm reading into what you said and pulled up the RI state policy to inquire about passengers for immigration purposes doesn't seem legal.
  • 01-04-2009, 08:04 PM
    Billy Mack
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    I can guarantee no such law existed for a civilian. If there were, most homeless men would be subjected to federal prosecution. Not to many homeless men carry ID's?

    When I stop them, I find that about 70% carry ID.

    In Georgia, we haven't been saddled with a law that requires anything specific to ask for passengers for ID, although I've fallen out of the habit over the last few years (I'm in management now, and it's been a few years since I've been a real road officer).

    Here's something that I think seems to get missed in the wake of Hiibel, everyone the police ID aren't necessarily suspects. If I arrest a driver for something like DUI, that passenger is a witness. He knows where the driver's been, how long he's been out, he may know about what he was drinking earlier. Even if he refuses to tell me anything, he could be subject to s a subpoena where he'd be compelled to testify.

    I think you could extend that to a lot of situations.
  • 01-05-2009, 08:35 AM
    BOR
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting Billy Mack
    View Post
    When I stop them, I find that about 70% carry ID.

    In Georgia, we haven't been saddled with a law that requires anything specific to ask for passengers for ID, although I've fallen out of the habit over the last few years (I'm in management now, and it's been a few years since I've been a real road officer).

    Here's something that I think seems to get missed in the wake of Hiibel, everyone the police ID aren't necessarily suspects. If I arrest a driver for something like DUI, that passenger is a witness. He knows where the driver's been, how long he's been out, he may know about what he was drinking earlier. Even if he refuses to tell me anything, he could be subject to s a subpoena where he'd be compelled to testify.

    I think you could extend that to a lot of situations.

    True, not everyone asked is a suspect or under investigation. In that MA case law I posted, the police can't even simply ask for an ID from a vehicle passenger without cause.

    You live in GA? I thought you were detective down in Texas! :-)
  • 01-07-2009, 06:00 AM
    SChinFChin
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting Billy Mack
    View Post
    When I stop them, I find that about 70% carry ID.


    Wow, scary.

    I'm thinking of my aged parents, and "in-law" with no driver licenses because thay never learned to drive. They're this other 30% with NO ID, I guess. And my sister up in MA is legally blind, and can't get one. Of course, here in NYC, it's more common, but if I have to take drive them out of town, get stopped, will they have a problem??

    Now my dad and sister, both got a "non-driver" DMV ID. In my dad's case, he got it because he needed something to ID himself at the bank, to cash checks. And he keeps this ID locked away at home when he doesn't go to the bank. It's sort of a habit from his generation, as you don't normally carry birth certificates or passports walking around either. Why would you need it??

    In my mom's case, she never did banking, so never even had the need to get a DMV ID, so she has NO photo ID's whatsoever. Currently, at age 85, she's legally blind, extremely hard of hearing and English challenged, and gets around in a wheelchair, so dragging her to DMV to get an ID she'll probably never use is out of the question. After reading this thread, I wonder if it's a even good idea to even drive her around anywhere?? Imagine at a traffic stop, an officer wanting an ID from her in case she "witnessed something"??

    I never thought I'd see the day here in the USA when you have to think about whether you should go out or not, ride a car, because you might get stopped and don't have the proper "identity papers".
  • 01-10-2009, 08:11 PM
    Billy Mack
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    You live in GA? I thought you were detective down in Texas! :-)

    Right now I'm a sheriff's lieutenant in suburban Atlanta.

    That is the source for my screen name. I liked what the song said about cops. My pay comes from the tax payers, and I owe them service for the living that they provide (not to mention the really cool job and all the toys). I also like how the song said that the detective would get the facts. I'm pretty dogged about solving my cases. At least I was back before I was in management.

    Anyone can get ID of some sort. In Georgia, if you can't or don't want to drive, you can go get a state ID card. In fact, we now require photo ID to vote. If you don't have any other ID, you can have an ID card made by your registrar of voters.

    For people who don't have it with them, they're not necessarily in any trouble. You just do your best to try and figure out who they are. You can get their name, date of birth, address, and phone number. You can try to confirm it with their companions. Just in case, I might take a picture of them. If it's really important to have positive ID for a ticket or something like that, I may have them put a fingerprint on their ticket.

    Most cops aren't going to get wrapped around the axle about older folks. A good officer should be looking beyond the stop for bigger crimes. Older people aren't generally a big problem.
  • 01-11-2009, 01:57 PM
    jk
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting Billy Mack
    View Post

    Most cops aren't going to get wrapped around the axle about older folks. A good officer should be looking beyond the stop for bigger crimes. Older people aren't generally a big problem.

    Note to self; it's probably ok to now become a criminal becuase I am generally beyond general suspicion due to my age:D.
  • 01-12-2009, 01:48 AM
    BOR
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    Note to self; it's probably ok to now become a criminal becuase I am generally beyond general suspicion due to my age:D.


    And I.Q. ;) :)
  • 01-14-2009, 06:43 AM
    SChinFChin
    Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving
    Quote:

    Quoting Billy Mack
    View Post
    Most cops aren't going to get wrapped around the axle about older folks. A good officer should be looking beyond the stop for bigger crimes. Older people aren't generally a big problem.


    You reminded of an incident with my mom-in law. At 85 years of age, she's got bad eyesight, hard of hearing, and English-challenged.

    A while back, the big "boulevard" she lives near had numerous pedestrian casualties due to speeding and "jay-walking". The mayor announced a major crackdown, and a heavy police presence was announced to ticket speeders and jaywalkers.

    Since she doesn't follow the news, the next day she was jay walking across 12 lanes of traffic when an officer motioned her over. At first, she can't hear because she keeps her hearing-aid in her pocket book. When she wore them, she often put them on wrong, (left ear for the right etc.) and still can't hear.

    Finally, she heard "license", and she told the officer "no drive", (that she doesn't drive). Anyway, the officer said a few more things, and she then said "no-English".

    She had crossed the boulevard to catch a bus, and by the point, the bus came, she waved the officer goodbye, saying "sorry, bus come". The officer shrugged.

    She called us later to ask what that was all about, and was told that "she got herself out of a ticket". Then we found out she normally doesn't carry any ID around either.

    My wife yelled at her mom saying "someone who can't see and hear has no business jay walking across a 12 lane boulevard, particularly if you get yourself run over and carry NO id."

    So I can see the point of the police trying their best.
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