My question involves criminal law for the state of: Minnesota
This is a two part question. Here's the scenario: a guy goes to the front door of a home and is greeted by a young child (6 or 7 years old). The child gives the guy permission to enter the home, but it turns out dad isn't there - he's out in the yard or something. When he comes back in and finds the guy in his house, he becomes violent.
Two questions:
1. Can the homeowner be charged with assault/battery or anything of the sort, or is he legally able to use violence to defend his home against an invader?
2. The invader does have express consent to enter the home, but it's from a young child. Can the child's consent be used as a defense against b&e or home invasion charges, or is the guy completely liable as though he had no permission at all, considering that a child that young can't legally consent to anything?
Thanks!!!
Can a Child Give Somebody Permission to Enter a Home
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10-21-2008, 07:40 PMevoheCan a Child Give Somebody Permission to Enter a Home
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10-21-2008, 08:28 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
A child cannot give legal consent. A person should know better then to enter a home based on a child's invitation. But it would be just enough to break the fall and avoid an illegal entry charge.
However the homeowner is never justified to beat someone up just because he's in his home. There is the need to determine how and why he got there. The only time common sense is ignored is if the homeowner kills someone then common sense is tossed in favor of the homeowner.
A Japanese foreign exchange high school student goes to the wrong house and rings the doorbell. The owner shoots him dead on his sidewalk, he never attempted to enter the house, the homeowner went free. -
10-22-2008, 03:42 PMevoheRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Great, thanks so much. You think the homeowner would be charged with anything if he actually shot at the intruder but didn't hit him? Would the fact that the kid had invited him in be enough to invalidate the whole castle doctrine thing? Plus, I'm a little fuzzy on how the law treats attempted deadly force as opposed to successful. Really I just need to know if the homeowner is likely to be charged with a crime.
Thanks again!! -
10-22-2008, 04:40 PMMr. KnowitallRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
If you trust kist to do your homework, well, don't cry to the rest of us when you don't like the grade. ;)
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10-22-2008, 07:11 PMevoheRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
LOL. Second opinions are always welcome. ;)
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10-22-2008, 07:23 PMcyjeffRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Okay... "LOL"... Do your own frigging homework.
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10-22-2008, 07:49 PMevoheRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
ouch. It's not homework. I'm a writer, thought I could get some quick help with a minor plot point. Apparently not. If hypotheticals aren't welcome here, there are probably nicer ways you could have said so. :rolleyes:
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10-22-2008, 08:05 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Quote:
Quoting evohe
Does the child possess "apparant" and or "common authority" to permit a person to enter??
Depends on the reason of entry??
If it is a neighbor and they ask if they can come in and the child knows them and says yes, it is a lawful entry.
If the police knock on the door and ask if they can come in, and the child says yes, and they discover drugs in open view, this evidence can most probably be suppressed as the court will not find the child has such authority? -
10-22-2008, 08:13 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?I give you a hypothetical answer to your obvious hypothetical question. You just need to know many legel types are extensively left brained and concepts like this confuse them.Quote:
Quoting evohe
Because home defense laws run the gamut - from Iowa which requires you to retreat - to Texas where you can shoot them in the back as they are fleeing. However even in Texas if you walk into your house (assuming a child allowed entrance because it's daytime) you can't just kill a guy for standing in the living room.
Search 'Yoshihiro Hattori shooting' -
10-22-2008, 08:19 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?You can only use deadly force against a "fleeing" felon in fact specific cases, see Tennessee v. Garner. Although this was a police shooting case, governments can not authorize deadly force by citizens when a felon is "fleeing" and they pose no immediate future harm to anyone, such as having just shot a person.Quote:
Quoting kist
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10-22-2008, 08:26 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
I was referring to the Joe Horn case he killed two burglars fleeing, not his but his neighbors house.
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10-22-2008, 08:38 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Quote:
Quoting kist
I looked that up. It does not say if the 2 men had weapons on them, you sure would think so, so this makes it a different set of facts from a non armed person, and it also said they were approcaching his house after exiting the neighbors, as in an attempt to break in, so, at least in that repect, they were not fleeing!
It also said there was great controversy over the GJ no bill?
It greatly appears the TX law violates the federal constitution as it applied to the specific facts in the Horn case (say no weapons on the 2 men)! IMO, he was very very lucky criminally, as this case is NOT a license to kill at will for those who want to risk it. -
10-22-2008, 08:50 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Did you listen to the 911 call? It's chilling, as far as I'm concerned it was cold blooded murder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0
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10-22-2008, 08:56 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?I'll check it out soon.Quote:
Quoting kist
IF the men were confronted outside and told to halt/freeze and they complied and were still killed, then it is cold blooded murder, yes.
I am unclear from the link I checked how the 2 men reacted when told to stop and exactly how far from Horn's home they were, nor if they actually had weapons??
I'll have to check this one out more kist. -
10-22-2008, 11:20 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Joe Horn did not violate any Texas laws!!! Hence the grand jury's no-bill!!!Quote:
Quoting kist
Did you know, at the time of the shooting, the burglars had crossed over into Mr Horn's FRONT YARD!!! Haven't you ever heard of the castle doctrine? I guess not. :rolleyes:
The guy was protecting his property. Nothing more. -
10-23-2008, 02:29 AMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?I mean come on the entire call is available for anyone to listen to, it's a little late to add favorable details I think people here are more interested in what really happened as opposed to the spin. He was safe in his house on the phone with 911 he left his house and went outside and shot them with a shotgun. He just got damn lucky Houston was having DA problems at the time.Quote:
Quoting blueeagle
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10-23-2008, 06:08 AMM'sta MikeyRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
DA problems or not, if he had crossed the proverbial line, he would have been charged. If not by the DA, then possibly by the states attorney general.
Since neither happened... -
10-23-2008, 07:35 AMcyjeffRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Which, of course, sums up why we don't answer hypotheticals.
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10-23-2008, 05:14 PMgigirleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Prior to this thread, I knew nothing of Joe Horn or the incident. Thanks to your link, I've been enlightened and I did listen to the entire video. How you can say this this is cold blooded murder is beyond me. IMHO, its two less people to throw into the already over crowded prison system. Maybe if the other states could follow suit with Texas...stupid criminals would quit home invasions. I'm sure you would sing a much different tune had it a) been your house or b) been your house with your family in it.Quote:
Quoting kist
Had he shot these criminals while they were in the neighbors house, then fine, but the minute the idiots stepped onto his property made them fair game. -
10-23-2008, 06:04 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
I really don't waste much sleep about the two guys killed, what I worry about is my neighbor shooting my son for sneaking in through a window after sneaking out to meet with his friends.
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10-23-2008, 07:15 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Thanks girl. You're alright. :)Quote:
Quoting gigirle
Wouldn't you have done the same thing Mr Horn did? -
10-23-2008, 07:22 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!Quote:
Quoting kist
Mr Horn shot two guys who were on his property!! They were not sneaking in him neighbors house when he opened fire!!! If you shoot somebody breaking into your neighbor house, then yes, it's murder! But the minute they cross onto your property it becomes SELF DEFENSE!!! -
10-23-2008, 08:19 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
That's not even close to what happened. This had zero to do with Joe Horn's property and everything to do with Horn had a scattergun and they were unarmed and Horn decided to play judge jury and executioner.
Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired] -
10-23-2008, 08:37 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
OH MY GOD!!! ERRR!!!! You make my so mad!
*Edited to prevent getting banned*
Mr Horn didn't shoot until they crossed onto his land!!! He also gave the thieves a very firm warning before opening fire! But did they pay any heed? NO!!! They kept moving!!! He had every right to open fire! For all he knew they were coming toward him!!! Do you not realize this????
And you keep forgeting the grand jury refused to indict him!!!
I doubt we would be having this discussion if the thieves had been white and Mr Horn black!!! -
10-23-2008, 08:42 PMMr. KnowitallRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Joe Horn claims that he was in fear for his life. Anybody who is either slightly honest or slightly intelligent, having heard the 911 tape, knows that to be a lie. So either the grand jury was full of Texas-sized idiots, or it was a classic case of jury nullification.
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10-23-2008, 08:49 PMsouperdaveRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Methinks there's a distinct difference between a neighbor's son, who you'd know, and a couple of losers beatin' feet with armloads of shit.
Also, methinks, it is a classic case of jury nullification.....although they did exhibit a good bit o' common sense. They appear to have percieved the 'cost effectiveness' of Horn's action! -
10-23-2008, 08:49 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
I still do not know if the 2 men were armed or not??
This I would like an answer to if anyone knows? -
10-23-2008, 08:51 PMsouperdaveRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?And your point is............Quote:
Quoting kist
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10-23-2008, 08:52 PMsouperdaveRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?I believe they were armed.....two each....with opposing thumbs.:DQuote:
Quoting BOR
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10-23-2008, 08:54 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Ha ha!! Stick em up!!Quote:
Quoting souperdave
Kist said they were unarmed, but I was wondering where that can be officially found?? -
10-23-2008, 08:55 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?As far as I know, they were unarmed, but regardless, he was clearly within his rights. You should know this.Quote:
Quoting BOR
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10-23-2008, 08:57 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?You're wrong. It's a rare case where the justice system actually worked!!!! Joe Horn didn't violate any of our law!! Why should a grad jury indict a man who committed no crime????Quote:
Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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10-23-2008, 08:59 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Don't get mad I do see your point. I have a few major problems here. Killings during burgelry are at extreamly low levels. There was a time when killing the homeowners was the first step in the process. Now this isn't something we can or should control however if there is a sense among the criminal element that their lives are at risk it won't stop criminals it will just make them more prone to use violence first. Criminals tend to be younger, faster and far more ruthless then homeowners plus they usually work in groups, This puts the homeowner at more risk.
Not only that the police had arrived and witnessed the shooting. It could happen that the police shoot horn or a confused horn shoots the police or someone gets caught in the cross fire, like a small child watching from a window. Gun play shouldn't be taken lightly.
As for grand juries well... I believe we are the only country to still use them, they became outdated a hundred years ago. Horn had public sentiment on his side but was justice served by this decisions? I didn't want to see the man sent to prison so mucg as I hoped an example could be set -
10-23-2008, 09:04 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Quote:
Quoting kist
The feds are bound to use them, but GJ Indictment's are not applicable to the states, so it is an individual choice there.
Some states have BOTH Preliminary hearings and GJ Indictments for felonies.
They are not outdated, at least in my opinion, as they are a probable cause basis before one can be brought to trial. If I were a DF that was charged with a felony, I would want as many PC hearings as the law allows. -
10-23-2008, 09:09 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Kist, here's a video for ya!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ5WW...eature=related
LONG LIVE JOE HORN!! -
10-23-2008, 09:18 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?
Here is the police report Bor http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/orig...report0001.pdf
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10-23-2008, 09:22 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Big deal! They were unarmed! So what? How was he to know this? They could have had a gun hidden in their baggy pants!!!Quote:
Quoting kist
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10-23-2008, 09:27 PMkistRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?If you were facing potential criminal charges the last thing you would want is a grand jury completely controlled by the prosecutor. In the words of Judge Sol Wachtler, "A prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich."Quote:
Quoting BOR
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10-23-2008, 09:29 PMblueeagleRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Well we agree on something!! In Joe's case it's obvious the grand jury was NOT motivated by the prosecutor.Quote:
Quoting kist
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10-23-2008, 09:48 PMBORRe: Can a Child Give Permission to Enter a Home?Quote:
Quoting kist
Thanks, I'll check it out.