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Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors

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  • 09-16-2008, 11:50 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    We use citizens as part of the partnership with law enforcement every day. Without the average citizen, police cannot do their job. If you want a police department that operates in a star chamber and outside the public eye, then you will get a secretive agency that operates above and outside the rules. if you want an agency that operates int he public interest and under scrutiny, then it has to operate as a partnership.

    The police cannot be everywhere and we cannot witness most crimes. We rely on the average Joe and Jane to step up and report what they see to us. We rely on them to go to court and testify to what they have seen. Without the average citizen taking an active part in policing, we simply cannot do our jobs.

    Today we have volunteers in the office, volunteers acting as eyes on the street, volunteers doing parking enforcement and vacation checks, volunteers helping with alcohol and cigarette enforcement, volunteers helping with code enforcement, and likely a host of other activities that my weary mind cannot think of right now. Heck, in my former agency we had more than 2 1/2 times as many volunteers as we did sworn officers in the department!

    Sir Robert Peel - the father of modern police services - had as one of his Nine Principles, the following:

    Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

    This is as valid today as it was in his time.

    - Carl
  • 09-17-2008, 12:05 AM
    zedex
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Do you feel like we're all ganging up you, Carl?? Just trying to get a better understanding is all and sharing ideas and thoughts are all part of it.
  • 09-17-2008, 12:19 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    Do you feel like we're all ganging up you, Carl?? Just trying to get a better understanding is all and sharing ideas and thoughts are all part of it.

    Kinda ... just not grasping this idea that the police should do it all when that is precisely what so many members of the public argue against! If they want an insular, self-contained, internalized law enforcement agency with a bunker mentality and "us versus them", then NOT getting involved is the perfect way to create that. Law enforcement has been moving away from that for 30 years and the citizen partnership model has been gaining ground for the past 20.

    If people in a town or city do not like decoy operations, they do not have to have them. I have yet to ever see ANY opposition of note to any of these, but I suppose one could always find one or two people in any town that might oppose it. For each operation we run, we have at least 6 volunteers - and those are usually among the 6 people we let know about the operation! When I used to work them in so. cal with college interns and high school students, I had dozens of possible volunteers!

    Personally, I am glad to see so many people willing to take an active part in policing their community in one way or the other. If all we had to do was rely on what we see from the patrol car, major crime would fall by the wayside as all we could enforce would be traffic law.

    - Carl
  • 09-17-2008, 04:16 AM
    BOR
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    You may not like minors being used in decoys, but the operations are safe, lawful, and perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of the populace.

    - Carl


    Majority of the populace??

    I have never seen or read any studies/surveys that support this? Is this just an informal consensus of area LE out there??

    I have never heard of any studies being done, period.

    I bet if you consulted 50 child psychiatrists, the majority would say, it is NOT a productive child development situation to put them in, IMO.
  • 09-17-2008, 04:21 AM
    BOR
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Sir Robert Peel - the father of modern police services ...


    - Carl


    British "Bobbies" were named after him, this I remember from my Criminal law days.
  • 09-17-2008, 04:24 AM
    BOR
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    Do you feel like we're all ganging up you, Carl?? Just trying to get a better understanding is all and sharing ideas and thoughts are all part of it.


    No gang up, I personally just have a strong different opinion on this subject also.

    True, citizens are an essential source of community enforcement, I am simply stating, when it comes to a minor, that participation should be nixed, as far as stings are concerned anyway.
  • 09-17-2008, 08:40 AM
    bam!
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    It is not illegal to attempt to buy cigarettes underage. It is illegal to sell cigarettes to an underage buyer.
  • 09-17-2008, 11:36 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    Majority of the populace??

    I have never seen or read any studies/surveys that support this? Is this just an informal consensus of area LE out there??

    I have never heard of any studies being done, period.

    I bet if you consulted 50 child psychiatrists, the majority would say, it is NOT a productive child development situation to put them in, IMO.

    The first place I have EVER heard any objection to these operations is on this forum. So, I can only assume that the opinion of the three of you is in a very tiny majority.

    And, of course it is not likely to be "productive" to put a minor - or anyone - in a decoy op. But, neither is it likely to do any harm, either.

    - Carl
  • 09-17-2008, 11:38 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting bam!
    View Post
    It is not illegal to attempt to buy cigarettes underage. It is illegal to sell cigarettes to an underage buyer.

    It is illegal to purchase or possess them, so a minor who does make such a purchase can be charged. There may be some states where the ATTEMPT to purchase is a criminal. This is the case with alcohol in CA where the attempt to purchase can be criminal.

    - Carl
  • 09-17-2008, 02:24 PM
    cyjeff
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Personally, I have no more adversion to my child being used as bait in this very safe sting operation than I would to her dialing 911 if she sees a crime.

    Having my daughter under the watchful eye of the police as she attempts to buy cigarettes is a heck of a lot safer than her and her friends walking around at the mall.
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