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Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors

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  • 09-16-2008, 07:39 PM
    BOR
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Now, let's talk practical. With this operation, you MIGHT effect sales for a short period of time. When word gets out that Habib was not behind the counter at ABC Liquor, but a new guy was, and that the new guy got Johnny busted, all that is going to happen is that no one will buy when Habib is not working the counter. But! If you bust Habib and possibly cite the store's owner as well, then you create a long term change because chances are very good that ABC Liquor will no longer sell to minors ... at least not for a very long time.

    - Carl

    The cops in shops program is a float sting also, they don't target one store, period. May be true once the word gets out for Joe's place, they will go somewhere else, but until that time, I can guaranteee they will nab a dozen + underage BUYERS in one night. Is this not just as important as nabbing the SELLERS??

    You lay off Joe's for a month, then the cops go back. I can guarantee they will nab just as many as the first set up did.
  • 09-16-2008, 07:45 PM
    pmc the 1st
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    The OP brings up a very interesting point.

    Suppose the minor used in the sting operation then goes into a store on his off-duty time, orders a pack of cigarettes, smokes them at school, then gets expelled (assume an A+ GPA and Stanford scholarship is in the works). The expulsion will all but destroy his future, even if he does have the legitimate claim that he was conditioned to buy the cigarettes.
  • 09-16-2008, 07:52 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    As Zedex points out, they are breaking the law to enforce the law, simply because the govt. gives them immunity from prosecution is inmaterial to me.

    But they are NOT breaking the law ... in my state, anyway, they are not exempt from prosecution, it is - in fact - not even a crime to make such a purchase in the context of a police operation.

    Since a crime is an act or omission in violation of a statutory law for which there is a prescribed punishment, they are NOT breaking the law.

    You may not like minors being used in decoys, but the operations are safe, lawful, and perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of the populace.

    - Carl
  • 09-16-2008, 07:57 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    The cops in shops program is a float sting also, they don't target one store, period. May be true once the word gets out for Joe's place, they will go somewhere else, but until that time, I can guaranteee they will nab a dozen + underage BUYERS in one night. Is this not just as important as nabbing the SELLERS??

    Then the buyers in your state are a lot different than they are in mine. That sort of deal would rarely net much of anything here ... unless, as I said, the demographic of the buyers was transitory and from out of the area, and the business had expressed to law enforcement that this was a frequent occurrence. Otherwise just setting up in Joe's Liquors would be a higly speculative and costly fishing game.

    Maybe some inner city or freeway stores have this problem. Where I have worked (in cities big and small) this would have been a waste of time. TX minors must travel more to get their alcohol and cigs than CA minors do.

    Nabbing ONE seller will have a greater effect than a dozen buyers as it cuts off the supply. Plus, the impact on the seller is harder ... in CA the impact on the buyer is negligible to non-existent and hardly a deterrent at all unless mom and dad beat little Johnny as a result.

    - carl
  • 09-16-2008, 08:00 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting pmc the 1st
    View Post
    Suppose the minor used in the sting operation then goes into a store on his off-duty time, orders a pack of cigarettes, smokes them at school, then gets expelled (assume an A+ GPA and Stanford scholarship is in the works). The expulsion will all but destroy his future, even if he does have the legitimate claim that he was conditioned to buy the cigarettes.

    Then Junior is an idiot because he knew better.

    First, he is not going to be "conditioned" to buy cigs ... these ops do not happen often enough for that to happen, and they usually do not use the same kid more than once, and when they do use the same kid, they generally do not use him for more than one year (which might involve 3 or 4 ops).

    Second, I can't imagine a state that expels a kid for smoking on campus. Suspending him, yeah, but expelling??

    Third, if he as that good a student, he wouldn't be so stupid as to risk his future like that. At least, one would hope. And given the very minor offense smoking would be, I can't imagine it would have any serious impact on his future.

    - carl
  • 09-16-2008, 08:06 PM
    BOR
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    But they are NOT breaking the law ... in my state, anyway, they are not exempt from prosecution, it is - in fact - not even a crime to make such a purchase in the context of a police operation.

    Since a crime is an act or omission in violation of a statutory law for which there is a prescribed punishment, they are NOT breaking the law.

    You may not like minors being used in decoys, but the operations are safe, lawful, and perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of the populace.

    - Carl


    Well, to rephrase it, the law has been ammended to permit it, the reality is, it is illegal from a common sense approach. Immunity or defacto not illegal is irrelevant to me.

    The first time something does happen, and it could, safety record or not, I will tell the parent too darn bad. If they let the kid get involved, they eat the aftermath.

    As I also stated the minor is thrilled to be a "part of the action". I do NOT believe they FULLY understand what they are doing. If they did, then ALL states should make them adults at 17 for ALL criminal prosecutions.

    They are old enough to understand the "potential" consequences, then they are old enough to be tried as adults when they do defacto break the law, IMO.

    The mere fact some states do NOT try 17 year olds as adults, except for major crimes, is the fact sociologists and such are of a mind to say they are not really ready to be adults from a mental standpoint??
  • 09-16-2008, 08:41 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting BOR
    View Post
    Well, to rephrase it, the law has been ammended to permit it, the reality is, it is illegal from a common sense approach. Immunity or defacto not illegal is irrelevant to me.

    But, it is not illegal ... regardless of what you consider it to be, it is not a crime if it is not a crime.

    Quote:

    The first time something does happen, and it could, safety record or not, I will tell the parent too darn bad. If they let the kid get involved, they eat the aftermath.
    This is not different from anything. If I stop a child for riding a bike without a helmet and he gets hit by a passing car, I am at just as much risk of liability. If we do not act because of what MIGHT happen, we would never conduct any enforcement stops and would take crime reports over the phone.

    Quote:

    As I also stated the minor is thrilled to be a "part of the action". I do NOT believe they FULLY understand what they are doing. If they did, then ALL states should make them adults at 17 for ALL criminal prosecutions.
    First, their parents have to approve.

    Second, we don't pick kids that are "action" oriented. The kids that get involved have to be smart, level headed, and are generally good students. The kid that wants to "mix it up" is not the kid that tends to get selected for ANY of this. That is no a kid I want as an intern or an Explorer.

    Quote:

    They are old enough to understand the "potential" consequences, then they are old enough to be tried as adults when they do defacto break the law, IMO.
    If they break the law, they can be tried for it. Whether they can be tried as adults for a crime depends on the crime and the state in question. Since most underage violations are geared towards ... well ... underage people, there is no separate penalty for adults and minors.

    But, as I said, no crime is broken in these operations. At least, not in my state. I do not know Texas law or practice in this area, so I cannot speak to it.

    Quote:

    The mere fact some states do NOT try 17 year olds as adults, except for major crimes, is the fact sociologists and such are of a mind to say they are not really ready to be adults from a mental standpoint??
    The truth of the matter is that they have to establish a bright line rule somewhere, and age is much better than a subjective test that might require a psych. exam. In my state, a person under 14 cannot be responsible for a criminal act unless it can be shown that they knew their action was wrong. We do that by asking questions of the minor. If it cannot be shown that the minor under 14 knew their actions were wrong or illegal, then we cannot make the case for a crime to have been committed. That being said, it is rare that a child actually commits an overtly criminal act and we cannot show he understood his actions were wrong.

    - Carl
  • 09-16-2008, 11:26 PM
    zedex
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Since its ok in Cali to use kids to work these "ops", why not have a kid go buy some drugs from the dealer next to the playground? Or, why not send kids out to meet with pedophiles searching them out online?

    I'm just saying... since its ok to use kids, why not??? Give them little badges and let them go. Afterall, a "buy/bust" isn't a bust until the product is bought and delivered and since kids are immune to the laws...........

    Personally, I think police business is just that: police business. Kids have no reason to be dealing with cops and criminals like that. They're kids. Leave them alone and leave them out of it. Let them be kids.

    It sounds extreme, but I can see a drug dealer recruiting kids to sell drugs and I can see a cop trying to recruit kids to particiapte in busts. They appear the same to me. Both recruiting for the purpose of doing their dirty work.
  • 09-16-2008, 11:33 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    Since its ok in Cali to use kids to work these "ops", why not have a kid go buy some drugs from the dealer next to the playground? Or, why not send kids out to meet with pedophiles searching them out online?

    Higher risks for those two activities. But, while I have not worked them, I know they HAVE been used in this way ... though, it is usually because the minor had already been involved, and the contact or meet is a set-up (usually wired) to gather more evidence.

    There is a big difference between sending someone into the store to buy something and sending a kid into a drug deal or into the arms of a predator! Those operations also require far more manpower and better coordination and planning.

    Quote:

    I'm just saying... since its ok to use kids, why not??? Give them little badges and let them go. Afterall, a "buy/bust" isn't a bust until the product is bought and delivered and since kids are immune to the laws...........
    Ah, now you are just being silly.

    If you do not like alcohol and cigarette decoy operations, advocate at your local council meetings against them. Conducting these decoy operations are not required by anyone. They are entirely discretionary. So, if your local city government or police agency agrees with you that the 0.01% chance Johnny MIGHT get roughed up by the clerk is too high a risk, then they do not have to run the operation and no one will think the less of the Chief or Sheriff for taking a pass.

    - Carl
  • 09-16-2008, 11:40 PM
    blueeagle
    Re: Tobacco Stings and Use of Minors
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    Since its ok in Cali to use kids to work these "ops", why not have a kid go buy some drugs from the dealer next to the playground? Or, why not send kids out to meet with pedophiles searching them out online?

    Don't they already do this?

    Quote:

    Personally, I think police business is just that: police business. Kids have no reason to be dealing with cops and criminals like that. They're kids. Leave them alone and leave them out of it. Let them be kids.
    The police should never use CITIZENS to do THEIR job!! Especially a minor!! We already pay their salary, now they want our kids to become under-cover agents???
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