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Vehicle Searches and the Fourth Amendment

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  • 07-21-2008, 11:39 AM
    treat54
    Vehicle Searches and the Fourth Amendment
    My question involves search and seizure law in the State of: California

    Do cops have the right to search a vehicle thats parked in the woods while you were out hiking? Do they have the right to go through all of your personal belongings and confiscate your wallet and keys that you had left in the ignition and on the dashboard? Well I was out hiking with a buddy of mine and we were a good mile away on a ridge as we spotted two county sheriffs going through my vehicle and by the time we had arrived to my truck to leave I noticed my key and my wallet and things in my truck have been tampered with and my keys and wallet were gone. Well we ended up having to walk down a long steep road for a good hour, while I was on the phone with 911 trying to reach these county sheriffs so I could get my keys and wallet back so I could finally go home. After a good hour of walking they finally showed up and checked my buddy's ID. After about 10mins talking with the sheriff he handed me back my wallet and key and left us to walk up a step road to get my truck back...do cops have the authority to confiscate your personal goods while your out in the hills enjoying yourself? My truck was not parked in a illegal area it was parked on federal forestry land. After the sheriff had finally left they did not give us a ride back to my truck they left us to walk back up the hill to retrieve my truck, a good 2 hours later I got my vehicle and drove home. They did not explain to me why they took my keys and wallet, when they finally showed up they had no care for what they did or what we had to do to end our night, they showed no remorse or the integrity to give us a ride back up to my vehicle. So, have I fell victim to police abuse? Have my rights as an american citizen been stripped from me last night? What should I do about this if there is anything I can or should do? Any information or help will be great cause my feet hurt and im still pretty livid at what happened lastnight.
  • 07-21-2008, 12:04 PM
    BOR
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting treat54
    View Post
    My question involves search and seizure law in the State of: California

    Do cops have the right to search a vehicle thats parked in the woods while you were out hiking? Do they have the right to go through all of your personal belongings and confiscate your wallet and keys that you had left in the ignition and on the dashboard?Have my rights as an american citizen been stripped from me last night? What should I do about this if there is anything I can or should do? Any information or help will be great cause my feet hurt and im still pretty livid at what happened lastnight.


    You need to seek a definitive Constitutional "WHY" from them. If none is given, seek counsel for an analysis of your facts.

    1. If an automobile is considered "abandoned" the 4th AM does NOT prohibit a search thereof. Was this one possibility?? Not likely since personal belongings were found inside, which were probably easily visible from an outside view, so we will rule that out.

    2. If the police had reason to believe the vehicle's occupants had come to harm, an exigent search may be permissable to seek identification and possible evidence of whereabouts!! Was this the case?? If they believed you had come to harm, then the wallet's confiscation could be to prevent theft and preserve evidence!!

    Lets' throw out these, as both are REMOTE in nature, although technically possible??


    Facially, as a more probable answer based on the facts, YES, your rights were violated!!!

    To repeat: You need to seek a definitive Constitutional "WHY" from them.
  • 07-21-2008, 03:21 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    There can be a number of reasons why they looked inside ... I agree that you should call and ask for an explanation.

    Aside from that, next time, lock your car up when you go for a hike in the woods.

    Also note that many dope smugglers and marijuana growers use the national forests for their personal playground, so finding a truck parked and abandoned in the middle of nowhere IS a red flag to law enforcement. Whether this fact alone gave them a right to look inside is questionable, but it also depends on what they believed at the time, and why they were looking inside.

    In any event, call and ask. If you don't like the answer, make a personnel complaint. If you're thinking payday, save your money.

    - Carl
  • 07-21-2008, 04:01 PM
    standish
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    The question boils down to if they had probable cause or not. IMO, the abandonment exception is kind of hard to apply to something as large and valuable as a car, especially if it was properly registered.

    Unless an informant was involved, or contraband was in plain sight, I can't see how probable cause could be formulated for a stationary, unoccupied car short of a K9 alert.

    If the car was illegally parked, they could probably do an inventory sarch, but that usually involves towing the car.

    The only real remedies to illegal searches are suppression of evidence as to a criminal charge, or a civil suit. Technically, violating one's constitutional rights is a class A misdemeanor under Federal law (a felony if it causes serious bodily injury), but good luck starting a prosecution on that one!

    If you weren't physically injured or charged with a crime, then there's not much you can do. Maybe file a complaint with the officer's internal affairs department, but that doesn't benefit you directly.
  • 07-21-2008, 04:03 PM
    seniorjudge
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    This is not even in the same universe as a fourth amendment violation.

    Anyone (besides me) know why?
  • 07-21-2008, 05:04 PM
    standish
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting seniorjudge
    View Post
    This is not even in the same universe as a fourth amendment violation.

    Anyone (besides me) know why?

    Oops, I skipped over the 911 call. Sorry. Good eye!
  • 07-21-2008, 05:12 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting standish
    View Post
    The question boils down to if they had probable cause or not. IMO, the abandonment exception is kind of hard to apply to something as large and valuable as a car, especially if it was properly registered.

    There are a number of possibilities. But, even if done improperly, aside from a personnel complaint, there is little that can be done here.

    Taking the keys is one way of finding out who was in an area, however. Proper or not, it is effective. And, arguably, could have been made under the community caretaking exception to the 4th Amendment. We wouldn't want to have his car stolen, would we? And with more than 1800 fires being fought in recent weeks in CA, law enforcement is being particularly vigilant - and suspicious - of cars and people off the beaten path.

    Quote:

    Unless an informant was involved, or contraband was in plain sight, I can't see how probable cause could be formulated for a stationary, unoccupied car short of a K9 alert.
    It's not easy, but it can be done.

    We do not know what the officers might have known, what they saw, heard, or smelled, or even what forest it was in. Th area may have been at risk for fire, under evacuation orders, known for poaching or pot growers, any number of things. Plus, even in National Forests, one cannot generally just go driving willy nilly where you wish. And even if they had opted to tow the vehicle, waiting for a tow in a National Forest can be a lengthy affair if possible at all.

    Quote:

    If you weren't physically injured or charged with a crime, then there's not much you can do. Maybe file a complaint with the officer's internal affairs department, but that doesn't benefit you directly.
    That seems pretty much the lone remedy available here.

    - Carl
  • 07-22-2008, 01:53 AM
    BOR
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting standish
    View Post
    Technically, violating one's constitutional rights is a class A misdemeanor under Federal law (a felony if it causes serious bodily injury), but good luck starting a prosecution on that one!

    I assume you are speaking of 18 USC 242:


    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/se...2----000-.html

    The key element being:


    Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects...

    Police enjoy qualified immunity in civil suits, a heavy burden to overcome.

    If such criminal charge were brought, then "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be the burden of proof.
  • 07-22-2008, 01:55 AM
    BOR
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting standish
    View Post
    Oops, I skipped over the 911 call. Sorry. Good eye!


    The 911 call was placed AFTER the car had been rummaged through.
  • 07-22-2008, 02:07 AM
    BOR
    Re: Is This a Violation of the 4th Amendment
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    woods.

    Also note that many dope smugglers and marijuana growers use the national forests for their personal playground, so finding a truck parked and abandoned in the middle of nowhere IS a red flag to law enforcement. Whether this fact alone gave them a right to look inside is questionable, but it also depends on what they believed at the time, and why they were looking inside.

    I left open the door for such as a safety play for the occupants since we do not know what was in the officer's minds, but I would still demand at least a reasonable explanation why. I personally would not need an "airtight" Constitutional one, just a "reasonable" constitutional one, since there was no theft involved, just a concern, if you will.

    Quote:

    In any event, call and ask. If you don't like the answer, make a personnel complaint. If you're thinking payday, save your money.

    - Carl

    Payday, no, just a notice of intent that they had better safeguard citizen's constitutional rights "to the best of thier training and knowledge"!!

    However:

    I did miss the part about the keys being in the ignition you point out in your other post and possible theft of the car.


    Leaving the keys in the ignition, I have read in some states/municipalities, gives an officer authority to remove them!!

    I am glad you mentioned that!!!
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