Was What Happened to Me Legal?

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Arizona

My kids and I (8 y/o boy & 5 y/o girl) went to Walmart to grab some stuff about 12:30 pm 6/21/08. I needed to get some weights and what not, and I promised my kids a toy each for really helping me out this week. Any way, we got the stuff we needed and they saw McDonald's. We decided to grab some burgers. This was directly across the way from the check-stand where I purchased my stuff. Pushed the cart up to McD's and walked up to the register. Bought our stuff, ate lunch, and went to leave. (Approx 1:30 PM)

I grabbed the cart and headed for the door. Walked through the little security sensors (No, they did not go off) and was almost to the door. A guy (50's-60's, gray hair, possibly glasses) asked for my receipt. I told him "No thank you" and kept walking. I attempted to walk out the door. He then tried to pull the cart out of my hands, and said you need to come with me to the security office. I told him I would be doing no such thing and asked him if he was accusing me of stealing. He said no. I then asked if he was detaining me. He said no. So I went to push the cart out of the door. He grabbed the cart again. I asked him if he would physically grab me. He said no. I told him to get a manager. He yelled at another gentleman (coincidentally, the gentleman in question was standing in line directly in front of me at McDonald's. His total was $4.02. I remember seeing it ring up on the register) This gentleman (not wearing a name tag) was late 40's - early 50's. He went and banged on a door right near the entrance that had a piece of paper taped on it saying "Employees Only" or something to that effect.

I said to the first gentleman "Look, I've paid for every item in this cart. It is my property. I'm getting my items and I'm leaving." At this time time, a younger guy (Mid 20's, short cropped light brown or blond hair, possible earring, 200-225 lbs, 5'10" or so, no nametag) came out from the earlier mentioned door. At that point I reached in, picked up my items (1 40lb dumbell set, 2 sunshades for a car, toy puppy, super soaker, lifting gloves, and exercise mat) handed the kids their toys and went to walk out the door. At that point the employee (I think, he wasn't wearing any kind of name tag) that came out of the side door grabbed me by the biceps and tried to restrain me. I asked him to get his hands off me and please call the police. At this point, I was surrounded by about 10 employees (Again, I'm not 100% they were employees, since most had no WalMart badges on). My daughter (5) started bawling. I again asked if I was free to go. I walked just outside the entrance doors, and 4-5 employees circled me and prevented me from leaving. "no name tag" (the younger) again put his hands on my arms and prevented me from advancing. (I'm not clear if all were employees or not. There were several males of varying ages and one female, 30's-hispanic or native american. All wearing street clothes.

"No nametag" (the younger) got out his cellphone and dialed 911. I was about 6 inches from his face. He got the dispatcher and advised them that he had an uncooperative customer and needed the police. I leaned in and said something to the effect "Ask the dispatcher if it is legal for you to physically detain me." I repeated this several times. He tells the dispatcher that NO ONE ever touched me. At this point an Asst. Manager (Mikki - 40's African American Female) walked up and asked what the problem was. I told her what was happening. "No nametag" says "I never touched him." I ignored him and asked the Mgr if there were video cameras at the entrance. She said yes, so I told her that I wasn't going to argue the point, we could just watch the video.

At this point another employee went up to my daughter and grabbed the toy from her arms. This guy was probably mid 20's: crew cut style haircut, dark brown, or black hair. Athletic build, a little over 6ft tall. She was really crying by then. He said he was taking it to look up the transaction. 10 minutes went by, me surrounded by employees. Nobody really saying anything. I tried to take a picture of the guy who grabbed my arms, but he kept turning around in circles so I couldn't get it. I have one photo of the back of his head. The police still hadn't shown up. The employee who took my daughter's toy then returned with a receipt printout and handed it to Mikki. She looked at my stuff, said here's your receipt. See you later. No apologies, nothing.

My kids were so upset that I just left. Maybe I should have waited for the cops, I don't know. When I got home I called the store and talked to the manager, Kathleen. I asked her if what happened to me was how they trained their employees. She said "It depends." I asked if there were videos. She said they had DVR's that were maintained for 30 days. Told me that the young guy (no name tag) was most likely a loss prevention employee named Jeremy.

I do have a copy of the receipt they printed out. I jotted down the names of those with badges and some phone numbers the store manager gave me.

There's really nothing you can do in this situation. it sounds as though the store followed policy; they do have the right to detain and question you since you are on private property. the most you may get out of this is an apology and a gift certificate. Next time, you should be more cooperative and just show them your receipt, thereby avoiding unpleasent situations like this one.

Concur with Mouser.

If a store employee asks to see your receipt on the way out the door, you show the receipt or risk being detained as a shoplifter.

If you have problems with such a policy, don't shop at stores that implement them.

Here's what the Arizona Statute (13-805) says:

C. A merchant, or a merchant's agent or employee, with reasonable cause, may detain on the premises in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time any person suspected of shoplifting as defined in subsection A of this section for questioning or summoning a law enforcement officer.

D. Reasonable cause is a defense to a civil or criminal action against a peace officer, a merchant or an agent or employee of such merchant for false arrest, false or unlawful imprisonment or wrongful detention.

I see nothing in what ragedracer posted that constitutes "reasonable cause". Now he may of left something out of his post, but we don't know that. I suspect not because Walmart obtained a record of his purchases and compared it to his purchases. Then they let him go.

In a handful of States, when an EAS (electronic article surveillance) device is activated the shopper must stop, when approached and requested to do so, and show a reciept for purchases. Arizona has no such provision and the OP states that the device did not signal.

It's a myth that people need to automaticly show their receipt when requested to do so, without probable cause for the retailer to stop them. In some shopping club operations such as Sams Club, BJ's or the like they have a clause written into their membeship contract that allows them to check reciepts. If you refuse they can cancel your membership.

I do agree with LawResearcherMissy - "If you have problems with such a policy, don't shop at stores that implement them."

I recommend this book (about 10 bucks) to members who frequently reply to posters questions regarding shoplifting. I'm not associated with this book in any way and receive no proceeds from it's sale. It's just good sound advice.

You are not affiliated at all with that book? At all? Hmmmmmmm I beg to differ

No, I'm not. I feature the author on my IAPSC Author's web page, as I do other IAPSC authors. I receive no money or other consideration. I offer the page as a free service. It costs me money.
Contact me privately and you can explain what you mean.

Ok....will an email suffice? I just get irked when products are pushed when people don't need them.

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Quoting Security Consultant

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I see nothing in what ragedracer posted that constitutes "reasonable cause". Now he may of left something out of his post, but we don't know that. I suspect not because Walmart obtained a record of his purchases and compared it to his purchases. Then they let him go.

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As I wrote is it exactly as it occurred.

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Quoting Security Consultant

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I do agree with LawResearcherMissy - "If you have problems with such a policy, don't shop at stores that implement them."

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I have been shopping at Wal-Mart for ~20 years. This has never happened to me before. So if I don't know before I enter the store, what then? I should submit to a voluntary search, that isn't really voluntary, because if I refuse, I give them reasonable cause to believe I'm a shoplifter. Also, by declining to show my receipt, I should be submitted to forceful detention, and be openly accused of shoplifting in front of who knows how many other customers? That doesn't seem right..

rr

Neither does the 13 Billion dollars a year retailers lose to shoplfiting

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Quoting ragedracer

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As I wrote is it exactly as it occurred.





I have been shopping at Wal-Mart for ~20 years. This has never happened to me before. So if I don't know before I enter the store, what then? I should submit to a voluntary search, that isn't really voluntary, because if I refuse, I give them reasonable cause to believe I'm a shoplifter. Also, by declining to show my receipt, I should be submitted to forceful detention, and be openly accused of shoplifting in front of who knows how many other customers? That doesn't seem right..

rr

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You need to re-read what I wrote. I think you will find that I disagree with what happened to you.

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Quoting bam!

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Ok....will an email suffice? I just get irked when products are pushed when people don't need them.

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Yes...........

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Quoting ragedracer

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I have been shopping at Wal-Mart for ~20 years. This has never happened to me before. So if I don't know before I enter the store, what then? I should submit to a voluntary search, that isn't really voluntary, because if I refuse, I give them reasonable cause to believe I'm a shoplifter. Also, by declining to show my receipt, I should be submitted to forceful detention, and be openly accused of shoplifting in front of who knows how many other customers? That doesn't seem right..

rr

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You're right. It doesn't seem right, and what happened to you, in a word, sucks. But that IS policy for a lot of retailers.

I'm surprised no one has asked you for your receipt before - it's certainly the practice at the WalMarts around here and in every other one I've been dragged into.

It's one of the reasons I don't shop there. I also skip Best Buy, for the same reason.

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Quoting LawResearcherMissy

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You're right. It doesn't seem right, and what happened to you, in a word, sucks. But that IS policy for a lot of retailers.

I'm surprised no one has asked you for your receipt before - it's certainly the practice at the WalMarts around here and in every other one I've been dragged into.

It's one of the reasons I don't shop there. I also skip Best Buy, for the same reason.

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I've heard of it, but its never happened to me. So, I guess then, retailer policy trumps your rights as a citizen? Does their policy expose me to forceful restraint when I have done nothing wrong, nor have they even observed me doing something wrong.

What if they said they needed you to remove your shirt before leaving? Would that be OK, since an innocent person has nothing to hide? How far can they go?

rr

The average person in the street is asking themselves; "So why didn't you just shwo them the receipt? Especially after it became clear they wouldn't let you leave."

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Quoting Security Consultant

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You need to re-read what I wrote. I think you will find that I disagree with what happened to you.

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I see that, but then you agreed with Missy.

What if they were singling out every hispanic person? Would your advice be, "if you don't like it, find somewhere else to shop"? Or are certain civil rights greater than others?

rr

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Quoting Scruit

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The average person in the street is asking themselves; "So why didn't you just shwo them the receipt? Especially after it became clear they wouldn't let you leave."

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In the same vein, what about being stopped by the police? Should you just let them search your car just because? I mean, hey, if you're innocent, why not? right?

rr

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Quoting Scruit

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The average person in the street is asking themselves; "So why didn't you just shwo them the receipt? Especially after it became clear they wouldn't let you leave."

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Ok, so I'm average. Why didn't you? Really?
No thank you?
If I asked you for your receipt (I would have had a reason, btw), I would expect the average honest person to give it to me.

I would have.

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Quoting mmmagique

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Ok, so I'm average. Why didn't you? Really?
No thank you?
If I asked you for your receipt (I would have had a reason, btw), I would expect the average honest person to give it to me.

I would have.

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Because I didn't feel like it. I had places to be. I had done nothing wrong. based on the fact that they were checking EVERYONE's receipt their reason is just because. Trying to say that this prevents shoplifting is baloney. Almost all losses to shrinkage can be attributed to employees. Either stealing or making errors.

If the police stop every car on the road and ask to search it, would you say yes or no when they got to your car? Would saying no give them probable cause to detain you? They didn't suspect you of anything, they are just stopping everyone. They have no reason, otherwise, to believe you have or are committing a crime.

rr

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Quoting ragedracer

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Because I didn't feel like it. I had places to be. I had done nothing wrong. based on the fact that they were checking EVERYONE's receipt their reason is just because. Trying to say that this prevents shoplifting is baloney. Almost all losses to shrinkage can be attributed to employees. Either stealing or making errors.

If the police stop every car on the road and ask to search it, would you say yes or no when they got to your car? Would saying no give them probable cause to detain you? They didn't suspect you of anything, they are just stopping everyone. They have no reason, otherwise, to believe you have or are committing a crime.

rr

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The consitution doesn't govern the behaviour of companies. Even if it did, asking you to show them the piece of paper that you were given by the checkout 50 feet away is not unreasonable.

You didn't say anythign about them trying to search you. If you want the us a cop analogy then the receipt is like your license plate. If you refuse to show your plate then the police will think you are breaking the law.

I know you don't like it, but the fact remains that I believe an objective view of the facts presented must conclude that the LP has every reason to suspect that you had stolen the contents of the cart, and that you created (and certainly prolonged) the confrontation. It would also be unreasonable totell walmart that they cannot detain people they suspect of theft. You said yourself your path tot he door was not directly from the checkout (which would not have raised suspicions) but instead could easily have appeared to be an attempt to bypass the registers.

Your state may consider the employee grabbing your arm to be a crime - the police will asnwer that question for you if you call them to make a report. Otherwise, live and learn. If they have a policy of seeing a receipt when you exit the store apparently bypassing the checkouts, then don't go back there unless you;re willing to show your receipt.

You have going there for 20 years you know the policy. Why not just have the reciept ready. I seldom shop Walmart (prefer Target) but when I am in there I have the recipet ready.

Security Consultant stated the law as it applies to this case. A perfectly fair response to the question, "Why didn't you show them the receipt" is, "Because I didn't want to." The law in this person's state doesn't require anything more.

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Quoting Scruit

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The consitution doesn't govern the behaviour of companies. Even if it did, asking you to show them the piece of paper that you were given by the checkout 50 feet away is not unreasonable.

Really? Then how come they get sued for discrimination? Or get sued for keeping people from practicing their religion?

You didn't say anythign about them trying to search you. If you want the us a cop analogy then the receipt is like your license plate. If you refuse to show your plate then the police will think you are breaking the law.

They wanted to stop me to look at my papers and look through my property. That's not a search? You do realize that failure to display your plate IS BREAKING THE LAW, right? A better analogy would be if the police stopped you walking down the street and demanded to see your ID. You are under no obligation to show it to them.

I know you don't like it, but the fact remains that I believe an objective view of the facts presented must conclude that the LP has every reason to suspect that you had stolen the contents of the cart, and that you created (and certainly prolonged) the confrontation.

The receipt checker was checking everyone's receipt. Is it reasonable to assume that ALL customers are shoplifting? Is that the new standard? Since you shop at a store, that is reasonable suspicion that you are a shoplifter?

It would also be unreasonable totell walmart that they cannot detain people they suspect of theft. You said yourself your path tot he door was not directly from the checkout (which would not have raised suspicions) but instead could easily have appeared to be an attempt to bypass the registers.

It is not unreasonable for them to detain a suspected shoplifter. The question is, is it reasonable to suspect a customer of shoplifting for declining to show a receipt? Further, the receipt checker had no idea what my path was. It was not visible to him. Also, I was not singled out. Every customer exiting the store was asked to show a receipt. Again, is simply shopping at a store reasonable suspicion that you are a shoplifter?

Your state may consider the employee grabbing your arm to be a crime - the police will asnwer that question for you if you call them to make a report. Otherwise, live and learn. If they have a policy of seeing a receipt when you exit the store apparently bypassing the checkouts, then don't go back there unless you;re willing to show your receipt.


I called the police and filed a report. They won't get involved in something like that unless there were serious injuries.

Suggesting I just shop somewhere else doesn't address the key issue. What if ALL store institute this policy? What would my option be? Also, as I asked earlier, would you say the same if the store only stopped hispanic shoppers? Should they just shop somewhere else?

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See my text in red.

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Quoting ragedracer

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So, I guess then, retailer policy trumps your rights as a citizen?

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Your rights as a citizen never come into play here. It's private property, they get to set their own rules.

Look, sweetie, they were asses and grabbing you was out of line. I'm not arguing that.

But seriously? If they're going to treat you like a criminal, vote with your wallet like everyone else with sense does, instead of yelling at a bunch of strangers for not being quite as outraged about it as you are.

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Quoting LawResearcherMissy

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Your rights as a citizen never come into play here. It's private property, they get to set their own rules.

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Sorry sweetie. Not true.

If that were the case, and I owned a store, would it be OK for me to refuse non-whites entry?

rr

I agree on "voting with your wallet", but private property or no they are not within their rights to detain a customer with a demand to see a receipt "just because they want to". In Arizona, they need reasonable cause of shoplifting to detain somebody, and detaining somebody in order to seek out cause turns that on its head.

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Quoting ragedracer

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If that were the case, and I owned a store, would it be OK for me to refuse non-whites entry?

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That's a different issue. They can ban you (or anybody else) for arguing with them, because they think you're ugly, or because they don't like the car you drive, without implicating civil rights laws.

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Quoting aaron

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That's a different issue. They can ban you (or anybody else) for arguing with them, because they think you're ugly, or because they don't like the car you drive, without implicating civil rights laws.

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And I agree 100%. The other posters are arguing that your constitutional rights become void once you enter private property.

rr

Bottom line is this.

Possible Criminal charges, Assualt on the person that physically grabbed you.

Possible Law Suit for Civil Rights Violation.

Sitting here debating what happened is really not going to get nothing done. If you feel you wrongfully treated and that a law was broken. Then take action and fight it out in the Court Room. You can supena the video tape from the security cameras for your evidence. You really can't find the witnesses that were standing around watching what was happening though. Because you did not get there names or contact info. Although you might be able to supena the credit card receipts so you can try to contact the shoppers that were there at the same time this happened. So you can question them if they seen anything.


I am a LEO and I have shopped at walmart off duty in uniform. I had my receipt checked upon leaving. Is it in violation of my civil rights, maybe it is maybe it isn't. If they are not signalling out one specific race, gender, age group, other classification, then I don't see how it is. If they are checking everyone walking out of the store then I really can not see how it is in violation of your civil rights. Being everything in the cart was in plain view site. They ask to see your receipt to compare with the contents in your cart. If you refuse to show the receipt, then they may hold you and wait for a manager.

But you kept trying to elude or flee from the store. Which could have given them reason to believe you were trying to steal something.

I know that if you have a cart full of items you will always be stopped by the greeter. In my honest opinion I think it is a joke. they look at the receipt then they look at the cart and let you go on your marry way. They don't inventory your cart to compare it to the receipt.

Now your rights are not void once you go on private property. If that was the case then we would be living just like before the civil rights movement. Also most of our US history would not have happened yet.

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Really? Then how come they get sued for discrimination? Or get sued for keeping people from practicing their religion?

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They get sued for a violation of something like Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (1964). NOT for 'violating the constitution.' How about you stand on Walmart property and start protesting - you'll find out VERY quickly if they will honor your freedom of speech.

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They wanted to stop me to look at my papers and look through my property. That's not a search?

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I didn't say they didn't try to search you - I said you didn't say anything about a search. I checked again, the word 'search' does not appear in your post.

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The receipt checker was checking everyone's receipt. Is it reasonable to assume that ALL customers are shoplifting?

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It IS reasonable to assume that anyone wheeling a cartful of stuff out the door with no receipt is probably shoplifting.

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The question is, is it reasonable to suspect a customer of shoplifting for declining to show a receipt?

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It's reasonable to suspect that someone declining to show a receipt (or saying they threw it away already) is a cover for someone who never had a receipt in the first place. I'll bet money that almost exclusively people who ARE shoplifting a cartful of merchandise whoe ARE asked fro their receipt will come up with some excuse to not give it up - they won't say; "Oh, right, my bad, I stile all this stuff." Criminals lie to avoid being caught, and your behaviour pattern was suspicious, and you refusal to show the receipt is something the LP folks have likely heard before - from shoplifters.

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Suggesting I just shop somewhere else doesn't address the key issue. What if ALL store institute this policy? What would my option be?

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If you don't like it then write your congressperson and ask for a law banning the practice.

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Quoting Scruit

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It IS reasonable to assume that anyone wheeling a cartful of stuff out the door with no receipt is probably shoplifting.

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Again, that's not what happened. This person had a receipt. They were not stopped for shoplifting, or because they didn't have a receipt - from what has been shared, they were stopped because they exercised their legal right to leave the store without complying with an arbitrary demand to present their receipt.

In case you weren't paying attention, in the state at issue, the store's conduct as described is not legal. You don't need a law outlawing something that is not legal.

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Quoting ragedracer

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A better analogy would be if the police stopped you walking down the street and demanded to see your ID. You are under no obligation to show it to them.

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Not always true!!

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Quoting Scruit

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They get sued for a violation of something like Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (1964). NOT for 'violating the constitution.' How about you stand on Walmart property and start protesting - you'll find out VERY quickly if they will honor your freedom of speech.

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Actually it is Title 2, discrimination in a public accomodation.

There are a "few" states, under thier constitution's free speech clauses that permit, not demonstrations per se, but the distribution of literature, etc., (specifics here) on private property, such as a Mall, regardless of whether the Mall desires it or not.

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Quoting aaron

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Again, that's not what happened. This person had a receipt. They were not stopped for shoplifting, or because they didn't have a receipt - from what has been shared, they were stopped because they exercised their legal right to leave the store without complying with an arbitrary demand to present their receipt.

In case you weren't paying attention, in the state at issue, the store's conduct as described is not legal. You don't need a law outlawing something that is not legal.

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Compare this to the other thread on this forum wherein a person tried to leave the store with a cartful of merchandise directly to the door from some location other than the checkout line, and "couldn't find" their receipt. Looking from the store's perspective it's easy to see that a "no thanks" and "I can't find it" are just excuses for someone who never had a receipt in the first place. One was shoplifting, the other wasn't? How does the store tell which is which?


If the OP feels there is a case to answer then they should pursue that case.

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Quoting ragedracer

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As I wrote is it exactly as it occurred.


I have been shopping at Wal-Mart for ~20 years. This has never happened to me before. So if I don't know before I enter the store, what then? I should submit to a voluntary search, that isn't really voluntary, because if I refuse, I give them reasonable cause to believe I'm a shoplifter. Also, by declining to show my receipt, I should be submitted to forceful detention, and be openly accused of shoplifting in front of who knows how many other customers? That doesn't seem right..

rr

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In your particular case, declining to show a receipt does not give the retailer "reasonable cause" to detain and treat you like you have written. I suggest you sit down to talk with an attorney in this matter who is well versed with: 1) retail security policies, practices and procedures, and 2) illegal detention.

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Quoting Security Consultant

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In your particular case, declining to show a receipt does not give the retailer "reasonable cause" to detain and treat you like you have written.

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'Reasonable' "is in the eye of the beholder"

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Quoting Scruit

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Compare this to the other thread on this forum wherein a person tried to leave the store with a cartful of merchandise directly to the door from some location other than the checkout line, and "couldn't find" their receipt. Looking from the store's perspective it's easy to see that a "no thanks" and "I can't find it" are just excuses for someone who never had a receipt in the first place. One was shoplifting, the other wasn't? How does the store tell which is which?

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If you take the time to think about the two cases, it should be obvious to you that in the former case the person was stopped on suspicion of shoplifting, and in this case the person was stopped for having the audacity to try to leave the store after making a purchase.

If you just want to bicker, take it over to a social forum.

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Quoting aaron

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If you take the time to think about the two cases, it should be obvious to you that in the former case the person was stopped on suspicion of shoplifting, and in this case the person was stopped for having the audacity to try to leave the store after making a purchase.

If you just want to bicker, take it over to a social forum.

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I'm not gonna argue this with you - there's a clear emotional bias involved for you and it's not worth my time.

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Quoting Security Consultant

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In your particular case, declining to show a receipt does not give the retailer "reasonable cause" to detain and treat you like you have written. I suggest you sit down to talk with an attorney in this matter who is well versed with: 1) retail security policies, practices and procedures, and 2) illegal detention.

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regardless of the ultimate outcome, where would I find an attorney like that? Ive never been to an attorney, nor do I know any.

Thanks!

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Quoting Scruit

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I'm not gonna argue this with you - there's a clear emotional bias involved for you and it's not worth my time.

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My interest is intellectual, and I'm sorry if I'm making you think too hard. Emotional? You're projecting.

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Quoting ragedracer

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regardless of the ultimate outcome, where would I find an attorney like that? Ive never been to an attorney, nor do I know any.

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A problem in terms of interesting a lawyer in litigating is that the damages don't appear to be substantial. (That may be something the store took into consideration when it set its policies - "we can do this because people won't sue.") It's also a bit esoteric - in my experience cases involving mere detention by store security, as opposed to physical injuries, aren't often litigated.

The Arizona state bar offers a lawyer directory, but they do not appear to offer a referral service. You could also try the AAJ directory.