I want to let all the posters on this site kknow that they are doing a fabulous job. By browsing through alot of the post I realize some of you are employed in a field that has you dealing with these things all the time. For you all to give some personal time to relay information to others in what may be their time of need is a tremendously wonderful act of kindness.
For all the people who are here asking for guidence, you are also brave in laying your storie out there for others to judge and advise you on. SOME of the answers my come across as cold or sarcastic but remember these people do this, not only here but as a job and they to are entitled to bad day. With that said, I have some questions that I need answers to.
BACKGROUND
2003 charged with multiple counts of Dom AB and kiddnapping
2004 supierior court 12 person jury Not Guilty 3 counts of AB not guilty 3 counts of kiddnapping guilty 1 count simple assault.
sentenced 2.5 years probation attend dv counciling submit DNA
fast forward today
I am on pretrial probation for 2 counts of AB which I am hoping will be reduced once all the facts are in. I should be charged with 1 count dissordley conduct. I'm not here to ask about that.
Q why when in determining certian things are the courts allowed to read from my record 4 counts of ab but not state only guilty of 1 count of simple assault. BTW if you need details on any of this please feel free to ask.
Q when police take a statement from """ the victim""" do they take into acount that persons demenor or state of mental awarness? My accuser who absolutly refused to give any statement until coerced/threatened by police. was extreamly intoxicated and was actually drinking infront of the officer.
Q """" General Question""" does anybody think that the rules for DV should be altered in such a way that both parties involved should automaticly be arrested so as to deter faulse statements?
Q """ General Question""" Should the State/DA take into consideration more actively a request to drop charges if the Victim/Accuser is willing to. And has done and made all LEGAL attempts to do so? """(before you all go off on this one I don't mean by lying and changing their staments as to obstruct the case, but with hiring a lawyer themselves and pleading to the courts that this should be dropped for XYZ resons)"""
Q If during an AB both parties admit to physicly contacting each other. Why isit the male that gets arrested? I ask this from my 2003 case and know first hand that my accuser stated in her own hand written report that she not only started the hitting that I was driving at highway speeds when she did it.
I got the simple asault on that because I admitted I held her with force against the door till I could stop the car.
I have more but will stop with these for now
Impact of Pretrial Probation
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05-22-2008, 11:24 AMonemore617Impact of Pretrial Probation
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05-22-2008, 12:51 PMcyjeffRe: Kudos First Random Questions Second
Because, with your record, they are a heck of a lot more likely to believe that you can be violent than anyone else you are involved with.
They can bring up your prior criminal record. Let me make sure I understand your question... you are wondering why they aren't bringing up MORE of your violent charges/convictions?
The demeanor of the witness is one aspect. The evidence they gather on the scene is another.
I don't think it serves any purpose to jail the victim.
I wouldn't make any long term plans if I was you. -
05-22-2008, 02:22 PMcdwjavaRe: Impact of Pretrial ProbationWhat state?Quote:
Quoting onemore617
If I were a cynic, I'd say that there was a pattern here.Quote:
I am on pretrial probation for 2 counts of AB which I am hoping will be reduced once all the facts are in. I should be charged with 1 count dissordley conduct. I'm not here to ask about that.
Because it is likely that you WERE factually charged with four counts previously. If this was not true, your attorney should have objected.Quote:
Q why when in determining certian things are the courts allowed to read from my record 4 counts of ab but not state only guilty of 1 count of simple assault. BTW if you need details on any of this please feel free to ask.
And why was "the court" reading this? I presume you mean the JUDGE read this off? That seems unusual to me - could you put this in perspective?
They obtain the statement and either quote or summarize it as best they can. The report might reflect the officer's observations of the witness's demeanor or apparent state, but the officer can not generally weigh the credibility of the statement based upon these observations - that is a decision for a court or jury.Quote:
Q when police take a statement from """ the victim""" do they take into acount that persons demenor or state of mental awarness?
Okay. Then the defense can argue that she lied because she was drunk. Good luck.Quote:
My accuser who absolutly refused to give any statement until coerced/threatened by police. was extreamly intoxicated and was actually drinking infront of the officer.
Both parties CAN be arrested. However, most states encourage the arrest of the party perceived to be the primary aggressor - provided that probable cause exists to support the arrest.Quote:
Q """" General Question""" does anybody think that the rules for DV should be altered in such a way that both parties involved should automaticly be arrested so as to deter faulse statements?
Probable cause to believe a crime was committed and that the person to be arrested committed the crime must be present. They cannot make a law that would allow us to arrest anyone and everyone at an incident that had the potential of being a DV - that would be ludicrous and unconstitutional on its face.
They always take it under consideration, but the psychology of DV is such that more than 75% of victims recant or change their story within 48 hours, and about 85% refuse to cooperate with the prosecution by the time of trial. The laws were made to account for this and to try and give the victims the support they need to take a stand ... sadly, too many are in denial and do not take the assistance.Quote:
Q """ General Question""" Should the State/DA take into consideration more actively a request to drop charges if the Victim/Accuser is willing to.
Because it is the male that is usually seen as the primary aggressor - in other words, he was the one who instigated or escalated the violence.Quote:
Q If during an AB both parties admit to physicly contacting each other. Why isit the male that gets arrested?
- Carl -
05-22-2008, 02:22 PMonemore617Re: Kudos First Random Questions SecondWhat record my record consists of what i have stated here in my post. 40 yrs of being an upstanding person and one big lie to ruin a life.. NOw a second time around an argument yelling screaming and loud talking. Quick 911 some guy is arguing with his GF and I don't approve arrest him!!!!!!Quote:
Quoting cyjeff
My question was why do they refer to all charges and specify not guilty or dismissed on those that are. IMO that paints a picture that a person is guilty no matter what the out come of a previous charge was. If I was found not guilty then it is what it is. What about innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Or being tried with the facts of the case. bringing up prior charges does one thing and that is removing reasonable doubt that it could be a mistake. Again I will state some responses are cold and sarcastic in theses forums. Based on what I said in the post a more thought out response was required. As I read your reply you have automaticly assumed my guilt and like in court would not have a fair trial. And I have proven my point that based on one records they are guilty no matter whatQuote:
Quoting cyjeff
wasn't asking about evidence! wanted to know if a person is fall down drunk are they able to really give a reliable statement????? Can i submit her beer cans as evidence that she was "HAMMERED"Quote:
Quoting cyjeff
Who is the victim if both parties are physical as it stands right now it seems to be the the first person that calls the police. AND as it stands law enforcment is 99.9% more likely to take the side of a female.Quote:
Quoting cyjeff
Which of my questions are you refering to? Do you know something I don't? READY FOR SARCASM """oh magic 8 ball please show me the out come of all this"""" I asked a few questions expected a few answers. This is a place to ask questions and hopefully get unbias answers and opinions.Quote:
Quoting cyjeff
If anybody thinks I am out of line please let me know and feel free to have it removed or edited. -
05-22-2008, 02:47 PMonemore617Re: Impact of Pretrial ProbationBTW it is ""NOT"" guilty 3 counts of kiddnappingQuote:
Quoting onemore617
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05-22-2008, 03:19 PMonemore617Re: Impact of Pretrial ProbationMassQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
please explain!! acusations are what they areQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
They had a 58A hearing a dangeronous hearing. As the DA read my BOP they just said he had a past XYZ but left out the key words of FOUND NOT GUILTY on XYQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
Based on expierience from working for law enforcment for 7 years it will only get written down if it benifits the case/victim. "" as an officer yourself would you state I observed Ms. Jones highly intoxicated while Mr. Jones was calm cool and collected and showed no signs of being under the influence. "" I think notQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
<---- heres the sarcasm that must come outQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
How about detain both till it can really be clear what happenedQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
It was before the statments were even made that my GF was saying nothing happened. The ink wasn't dri when she was asking the State to not go forward.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
My last relationship it was the opposite and when I sought advice from the local police they laughed at me. I had to replace multiple windows on my car Tires had to have my teeth fixed because she hit me with an ashtray. I moved to a different town to get away from it... Because I had no witnesses """ IRONIC""""Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
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05-22-2008, 03:53 PMseniorjudgeRe: Impact of Pretrial ProbationQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
Oh, Mister Carl, you is much too cynical!:cool: -
05-22-2008, 04:24 PMcdwjavaRe: Impact of Pretrial ProbationMost people do not get falsely accused of the same or similar offenses ... much less TWICE, and in such a short period of time.Quote:
Quoting onemore617
Was this accusation involving the same partner as the first time?
If your attorney did not object to clarify the record, his bad. But, the judge likely had the printed record in front of him and sentence enhancements are based upon prior convictions, not charges.Quote:
They had a 58A hearing a dangeronous hearing. As the DA read my BOP they just said he had a past XYZ but left out the key words of FOUND NOT GUILTY on XY
Out here we are trained to write down these things because they go to the credibility of the victim/witness.Quote:
Based on expierience from working for law enforcment for 7 years it will only get written down if it benifits the case/victim. "" as an officer yourself would you state I observed Ms. Jones highly intoxicated while Mr. Jones was calm cool and collected and showed no signs of being under the influence. "" I think not
For instance, if the victim is crying and sobbing, and behaving in a manner consistent with fear of the abuser, the officer should be documenting this. And in most counties in my state law enforcement agencies have to complete supplemental DV forms that also include this kind of information.
If something stands out about either party, then it should get written down. Whether it does each time or not will depend on state law and agency policy - and what the agency expects of its officers.
So, you worked "for law enforcement" for 7 years? Were you actually an officer?
What do you mean, "come out"? The defense can certainly make the argument that she was drunk and therefore lied to the police or cannot be believed. In my many years of experience, that is not likely to fly, but it is certainly an avenue the defense can pursue in order to discredit the victim.Quote:
<---- heres the sarcasm that must come out
They ARE both detained at the scene. When you are not free to leave, you are detained.Quote:
How about detain both till it can really be clear what happened
A detention is NOT the same as an arrest. Transporting someone from the scene is generally an arrest - and an arrest cannot be made absent probable cause. Since most states mandate or encourage the arrest of the primary aggressor, an arrest of both parties does not generally occur. And, in some instances, an arrest of both parties can be a huge problem - especially when dealing with kids, because then the kids have to be taken into protective custody and that can take hours.
Apparently the officers did not believe her ... amazing thing - DV victims lie to protect their abusers. In fact, the victims will often risk jail to protect their abuser, and the same abuser will gladly let the victim do so in order to protect themselves. Wonderful guys.Quote:
It was before the statments were even made that my GF was saying nothing happened. The ink wasn't dri when she was asking the State to not go forward.
And it is NOT the victim's place to decide on the dropping of charges - it is the state's (the DA's).
If the defense feels that the victim was coerced into making a false statement, they can bring that issue forward at trial. It is not uncommon, however, that officers have to cajole a victim in to providing a statement that resembles the facts.
I find it difficult to believe that with those kinds of injuries that the police did nothing. I can see where there was no prosecution because of a lack of proof, but I can't see that they would just laugh off such an injury unless the report were made significantly after the fact.Quote:
My last relationship it was the opposite and when I sought advice from the local police they laughed at me. I had to replace multiple windows on my car Tires had to have my teeth fixed because she hit me with an ashtray. I moved to a different town to get away from it... Because I had no witnesses """ IRONIC""""
- Carl -
05-23-2008, 08:55 AMonemore617Re: Impact of Pretrial ProbationMy GF isn't accusing me the police are!Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
Nope! neighbor that heard the heated argument.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
I'm looking at 3 copies of the police report right now. Each one obtained at 3 different times by 3 different people. All 3 state at the top "" Prelim DO NOT GIVE OUT ''' also it has now been a few weeks it also states """ follow up by: (N) one NEEDED"" when will this happen if ever.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
If something stands out about either party, then it should get written down. Whether it does each time or not will depend on state law and agency policy - and what the agency expects of its officers.How about the """ VICTIM continually stating nothing happened there was no abuse it was an argument"" that is not stated any where that is relivent is it not? the slurred speach and level of intoxication? Nope not in the report either. That should be an observation??
no i was an outside contractor for 4 different departments one being the state police.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
again point proven! it's an automatic arrest for someone. But god forbid something didn't happen it's too late. I was arrested on my history and charged with ab because the police looked at my history. Again I have 3 copies of the officers report in front of me right now. At no time does it read Ms. xyz stated she was assaulted, restrainded or threatened. It says and I quote ""Ms. xyz is observed to have a red face and hoarse voice""" I will seek a criminal complaint of Dom A&B for Mr. ABC"" I was already stated the we were having a very heated Argument that was loud enough for neigbor across the street to hear..Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
Get a young DA thats trying to make a name for themselves and the facts don't matter. This particular part of the process needs to revised....Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
I was there, we were separated but I heard everything the officer said. quote "" you could got to jail yourself if you refuse to give a statement.. you need to consider your options here"" GO AHEAD AND DEFEND THATQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
would you believe a beautiful 100lb woman could do that. I was in a small town where everybody knew everybody else. she grew up there. As soon as I said her name they automaticly had disbelief. The day after the incident happened I called a dentist then the police. First Question was DID ANYBODY ELSE SEE THIS HAPPEN.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
I Still think and will always think that DV AB laws/rules need to be revisited. THere are a lot of black and white cases where it is undenible as to what happened. But there are also alot of gray area cases where it is not always what it seems. -
05-23-2008, 09:36 AMcdwjavaRe: Impact of Pretrial ProbationBased upon what she told them and what they saw. Same difference.Quote:
Quoting onemore617
Yes, but arguing with the same partner as in 2003 or 2004? Perhaps your relationships get a little too heated when they have problems.Quote:
Nope! neighbor that heard the heated argument.
I don't know what to tell you ... I am not familiar with the practices and public records laws in your state. However, if similar to mine, police reports are something the agency can choose to withhold but not something they MUST withhold from release. And, apparently, whoever "(N)" is did not feel the need to "follow up".Quote:
I'm looking at 3 copies of the police report right now. Each one obtained at 3 different times by 3 different people. All 3 state at the top "" Prelim DO NOT GIVE OUT ''' also it has now been a few weeks it also states """ follow up by: (N) one NEEDED"" when will this happen if ever.
Perhaps it was not as pronounced to the responding officer as you seem to think it was.Quote:
How about the """ VICTIM continually stating nothing happened there was no abuse it was an argument"" that is not stated any where that is relivent is it not? the slurred speach and level of intoxication? Nope not in the report either. That should be an observation??
Again, YOU can raise that issue at trial. If you are lucky, she'll agree that she was tanked and that she lied to the police to placate them for some reason.
Okay. I was worried that you had been a cop and you did not know some of these things - such as "probable cause."Quote:
no i was an outside contractor for 4 different departments one being the state police.
Not "automatic" ... very likely - especially if any act of violence is alleged - but not, "automatic". I defy you to show me the statute that requires an arrest at each and every DV call. There just won't be such a statute. You need probable cause to believe a crime was committed, and the authority to make an arrest for a misdemeanor not committed in your presence. Until about 10 years ago or so, we couldn't do that in California - we had to settle for pressing the victim to sign a citizen's arrest or we had to forward the report to the DA and HOPE it was prosecuted. Not every state has such a matching pair of statutes.Quote:
again point proven! it's an automatic arrest for someone.
If he failed to articulate any physical contact or a reasonable belief that such occurred, your attorney should have no problem having the matter dismissed.Quote:
At no time does it read Ms. xyz stated she was assaulted, restrainded or threatened. It says and I quote ""Ms. xyz is observed to have a red face and hoarse voice""" I will seek a criminal complaint of Dom A&B for Mr. ABC"" I was already stated the we were having a very heated Argument that was loud enough for neigbor across the street to hear..
Were you actually arrested? Or, did he forward the report to the DA who filed the complaint? If the DA filed either after an arrest or without one, apparently the DA believes she was assaulted and believes he can support the charge.
Feel free to petition your legislature for a change ... not sure what that change might be, but if you think of one, you can join one of several movements out there to modify one law or another.Quote:
Get a young DA thats trying to make a name for themselves and the facts don't matter. This particular part of the process needs to revised....
Advising the victim/witness of the possible ramifications is perfectly viable. Obviously he believed she was lying about nothing happening. As I have said numerous times, if she was drunk and if she lied, she can be asked this on the stand. if she is willing to come forward and state that she lied to the police just to stop them from haranguing her, then the state's case will likely go in the tank ... she might be charged with a crime, but that's her problem, I suppose.Quote:
I was there, we were separated but I heard everything the officer said. quote "" you could got to jail yourself if you refuse to give a statement.. you need to consider your options here"" GO AHEAD AND DEFEND THAT
Sure. Why not? Even a child can throw an ashtray.Quote:
would you believe a beautiful 100lb woman could do that.
Because a witness would have been nice ... especially if she had a completely contradictory story. I'm not saying their lack of action was right or not as I do not know what they did or did not do, but I can understand NOT being able to take action depending on what transpired.Quote:
The day after the incident happened I called a dentist then the police. First Question was DID ANYBODY ELSE SEE THIS HAPPEN.
There have been many times where I have come across victims I was unable to help for a variety of reasons, and many times I have come to scene where I KNOW both parties were lying about what happened and knowing that I would be back again ... and, nine times out of ten I have been right - and usually for a more serious event.
The law still requires probable cause to believe a crime occurred and that the person arrested committed the crime. If no probable cause exists, then the arrest is bad. The current state of DV laws has intentionally removed some of the discretion from law enforcement by either encouraging or even mandating an arrest if there exists probable cause to do so in a DV incident. If you want to change those encouragements, you are free to do so. However, the nature of DV being what it is, I doubt that will happen anytime soon.Quote:
I Still think and will always think that DV AB laws/rules need to be revisited. THere are a lot of black and white cases where it is undenible as to what happened. But there are also alot of gray area cases where it is not always what it seems.
- Carl -
05-23-2008, 10:23 AMonemore617Re: Impact of Pretrial Probation
Carl thank you for taking time to discuss all this with me. It is helping me understand some things. I may not agree but understand. Hopefully others can read this and maybe get some insight.
I was arrested and held..Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
how is her being arrested ramifications. she didn't call police a stranger did. The person who called has only stated they heard us arguing not see us fighting.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
I understand probable cause alittle better now. But "you knew the but was coming" But maybe there should be someother requirements met or like the in car cams maybe a way to record on scene statements. I am definatly guilty of Disturbing the peace and so is she. I did not assault her mentaly physicly emotionally, or financially. BTW she has been here with me for most of this conversation and at times I am typing her responses or questions.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
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05-23-2008, 11:36 AMcdwjavaRe: Impact of Pretrial ProbationNo problem.Quote:
Quoting onemore617
Because lying to the police can be criminal and if the officer believed she was lying, he has a right to explain what might happen. He was likely bluffing, but unless it can be shown that the inducement was such that it would compel a reasonable person to lie, it's not going to be a problem. However, if she takes the stand and says she lied to the police about any assault and did so because of the threat, that should throw a great deal of reasonable doubt on the state's case.Quote:
how is her being arrested ramifications. she didn't call police a stranger did. The person who called has only stated they heard us arguing not see us fighting.
Are you actually set to go to trial on this?
The technology is not yet there to permit every officer to be wired for video and sound all the time ... well, I should say the technology is there, but the cost is prohibitive. Many agencies out here use pocket recorders, and many others seek to have the victim write out their statement in their own hand. But, recordings may be required to be transcribed, and this can be very expensive, and written statements are easily challenged when the victim says, "I wrote what the officer TOLD me to write. I encourage my officers to record their contact AND encourage them to have the victim write a statement in the victim's own words.Quote:
I understand probable cause alittle better now. But "you knew the but was coming" But maybe there should be someother requirements met or like the in car cams maybe a way to record on scene statements.
Maybe not. In my state this requires an intent to disturb the peace. Though the state might offer this to you as a plea option.Quote:
I am definatly guilty of Disturbing the peace and so is she.
I was unaware that one could be subject to assault either emotionally or financially. Abused as such or taken advantage of, sure, but these are not generally criminal.Quote:
I did not assault her mentaly physicly emotionally, or financially.
Then I suspect she will testify for the defense, and will take the stand explaining her inebriation and why she may have lied to the police. If your attorney knows this, I suspect he can relate all of this to the DA and it might be possible to either get a significant plea deal or have the matter dropped.Quote:
BTW she has been here with me for most of this conversation and at times I am typing her responses or questions.
- Carl -
05-29-2008, 06:21 PMonemore617A New Twist
My question involves criminal law for the state of Mass
It's been a week since I posted on here. BTW thank you cdwjava for all your help.
I fired my lawyer last friday, I was not happy with him at all. Monday I requested all the docs from the DA's office and told them I am representing myself. Definatly a dumb move just haven't gotten a new Lawyer yet. I got the docs on tuesday. Today being Thursady and my trial date being next friday. I have a week to figure this out.. The DA called and wants to discuss a plea so I listen. Drop my charges to what I originaly said they were. Disturbing the peace.
The DA told me if I agree to this it could be done as soon as Monday as they all ready have the green sheet ready for me.
Plead guilty to Disturbing The Peace in return I get 6 months of unsupervised probation. One year suspended.
Now I have read thru the paper work from the da and it is no more than than the orig police incident report from the night this has happen. There are no new witness statements. no follow up by anybody.
Is the DA just trying to get a guilty for something, because the case is so weak for the charges.
Should I get a new lawyer and take it to trial.
I know I should at least have a lawyer review the plea deal.
thanks in advance.