Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
Surprised this has been explained to you over and over just because your child got caught wont change that. If you runhappy with the law write your State's Rep. Whinning about your child's Civil Demand charge isnt going to change anything. Once more you were repeatingly told and explained the Civil Demand laws and the reason behind them You were also shown the high cost to retailers, customers and, employees of shoplifting.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
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panther10758
Surprised this has been explained to you over and over just because your child got caught wont change that. If you runhappy with the law write your State's Rep. Whinning about your child's Civil Demand charge isnt going to change anything. Once more you were repeatingly told and explained the Civil Demand laws and the reason behind them You were also shown the high cost to retailers, customers and, employees of shoplifting.
Thanks for trying, still hasn't answered my inquiry.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
Yes it has but you arent listenning.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
Personally I think the bill is a great idea. Shoplifters fill up the court system. The restitiution is paid to the court and the store loses out. Here in Ohio, if restitution via the court is made, the restitution are the actual damages. The store can't then come after the person for a civil recovery. Some of the stores kind of shot themself in the foot so to speak as company policies dictate if they can prosecute or not. The store is the one out the money and the only thing they can recoop are the actual damages. Plus, for the ones that do just make stupid mistakes, they then have to go back to court after diversion is met. I think it sounds like a reasonable solution to overcrowding the already court system as well as making it easier for the store to get some of their money back.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
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Surprised2BHere
I wasn't even going to step back into this "debate" because I certainly felt like there wasn't anyone here who could give me the right answer (if there even is one)... but one thing prompted me to reply again...
This is EXACTLY how I understand the law, and was not arguing otherwise. It's the "make the victim whole" part where it all falls down for me -- and it's based on what I've read, not experience.
Johnny and Marty get in a car accident. It's Marty's fault, he was drunk. The police arrest him and he's convicted of a DUI. He pays his fine and does his time.
Johnny, who wasn't hurt, sues Marty for the costs to fix his car... $2000.
Now what should happen? Should Marty be ordered to pay to fix Johnny's car -- the $2000, the amount that would make him whole. -- or should Marty have to pay for every other car accident Johnny ever got into and all the insurance he's had to pay for the last 10 years he's been driving?
I DO understand that thieves have to pay for the crimes they commit. The only question I've been asking all along is when is it the the civil recovery demanded is unreasonable? There are others out there questioning it, which is what prompted me to even think about it and question it. There was recently a post on here about a mom who's kid stole an item worth $1.50 and was ordered to pay $350 in civil recovery. Can you explain to me... LEGALLY... how that is justified? Why is the crime of shoplifting treated differently, in the sense of the arguments made here that the thief should pay for the crimes of others?
I'll say it over and over... I'm not trying to get my child out of ANYTHING. There's been no civil demand at this point and we are way too early in the criminal process to even know what the outcome is going to be. We FULLY intend to have our kid comply with whatever is dished out because that is the right thing to do. This is a QUESTION of curiosity and only hypothetical.
Then don't sign anything when brought into the back room. Admit no guilt. Say that you won't pay anything that you are sent.
And be prepared to have to police called and the thief sent away in a patrol car.
One of the things that the person signs is the agreement and understanding that a civil demand will be forthcoming and the thief agrees to pay it.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
Just to add to that failure or refusal to sign will not prevent retailer from sending Civil Demand
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
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Surprised2BHere
Thanks for trying, still hasn't answered my inquiry.
Okay, I'll try ....
[QUOTESurprised2BHere]what I don't understand is if the business owner indeed calls the cops can they still demand civil recovery? If so, why?[/QUOTE]
Because the law allows them to do so.
In CA here is the law for adults:
PC 490.5(c) When an adult or emancipated minor has unlawfully taken
merchandise from a merchant's premises, or a book or other library
materials from a library facility, the adult or emancipated minor
shall be liable to the merchant or library facility for damages of
not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more than five hundred dollars
($500), plus costs. In addition to the foregoing damages, the adult
or emancipated minor shall be liable to the merchant for the retail
value of the merchandise if it is not recovered in merchantable
condition, or to a library facility for the fair market value of its
book or other library materials. An action for recovery of damages,
pursuant to this subdivision, may be brought in small claims court if
the total damages do not exceed the jurisdictional limit of such
court, or in any other appropriate court. The provisions of this
subdivision are in addition to other civil remedies and do not limit
merchants or other persons to elect to pursue other civil remedies.
And, for unemancipated minors:
PC 490.5(b) When an unemancipated minor's willful conduct would constitute
petty theft involving merchandise taken from a merchant's premises
or a book or other library materials taken from a library facility,
any merchant or library facility who has been injured by that conduct
may bring a civil action against the parent or legal guardian having
control and custody of the minor. For the purposes of those actions
the misconduct of the unemancipated minor shall be imputed to the
parent or legal guardian having control and custody of the minor.
The parent or legal guardian having control or custody of an
unemancipated minor whose conduct violates this subdivision shall be
jointly and severally liable with the minor to a merchant or to a
library facility for damages of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor
more than five hundred dollars ($500), plus costs. In addition to
the foregoing damages, the parent or legal guardian shall be jointly
and severally liable with the minor to the merchant for the retail
value of the merchandise if it is not recovered in a merchantable
condition, or to a library facility for the fair market value of its
book or other library materials. Recovery of these damages may be
had in addition to, and is not limited by, any other provision of law
which limits the liability of a parent or legal guardian for the
tortious conduct of a minor. An action for recovery of damages,
pursuant to this subdivision, may be brought in small claims court if
the total damages do not exceed the jurisdictional limit of that
court, or in any other appropriate court; however, total damages,
including the value of the merchandise or book or other library
materials, shall not exceed five hundred dollars ($500) for each
action brought under this section.
The provisions of this subdivision are in addition to other civil
remedies and do not limit merchants or other persons to elect to
pursue other civil remedies, except that the provisions of Section
1714.1 of the Civil Code shall not apply herein.
As to why the law was enacted, you would have to query the legislators that enacted it once upon a time. The reason they DO it is because the law allows them to, and these stores have to try and recoup some of the tremendous shrinkage that occurs as a result of theft.
- Carl
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
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panther10758
Just to add to that failure or refusal to sign will not prevent retailer from sending Civil Demand
True. All it WILL do is guarantee your day in court... or should I say courts... one for the criminal act and one for the civil judgement.
The civil judgement will now include lawyer's fees and court costs as well as the original judgement, but you will get your day in court.
Re: Civil Action Against Shoplifters
Appreciate the answers. Thanks all.
And just so you know, there was no "back room" or LP department in my child's case, and there was no civil demand agreement signed (there wasn't one presented). Like I said earlier, there's been no civil recovery letter received (at least not yet), AND the cops were already called (and my child arrested and charged). This was all a exercise in curiosity on my part.
Anyone have a link to the civil recovery law for NY? I tried to find it, but have failed to dig it up so far.