Crime Against Humanity

I accuse the rule-of-law of being the worst crime against humanity. Law and law enforcement forcibly strips us of our god-granted freedom and it delivers only crime in return. Some might erroneously think that ‘the law protects us’, but it doesn’t: law only seeks to preserve it’s own sanctity. Instead of protection, the law paints a crime target on people and grants the criminal a way to sidestep his conscience.

And what is your legal question for us?

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Quoting seniorjudge

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And what is your legal question for us?

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How does society derive the RIGHT to issue and enforce laws? An individual has zero right to tell another what he must/mustn't do or punish for non-compliance. A nation is made of many individuals, but zero times x-million is still zero right.

Q: How does society derive the RIGHT to issue and enforce laws?

A: I don't have the slightest idea.

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An individual has zero right to tell another what he must/mustn't do or punish for non-compliance.

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How do you figure that logic?

Bosses? Bullies? Parents? They all tell you what to do or not to do and have the right (or in the case of bullies, the ability) to punish for non-compliance.

:D

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Quoting seniorjudge

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Q: How does society derive the RIGHT to issue and enforce laws?

A: I don't have the slightest idea.

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They make the decision to not turn left.

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Quoting seniorjudge

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Q: How does society derive the RIGHT to issue and enforce laws?

A: I don't have the slightest idea.

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And are you good with that? Your handle calls you a 'seniorjudge' but you have no definable mandate. What gives you the authority to judge anything or anyone?

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Quoting jojo4

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How do you figure that logic?

Bosses? Bullies? Parents? They all tell you what to do or not to do and have the right (or in the case of bullies, the ability) to punish for non-compliance.

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A boss has the right, but I can quit if I disagree.
A parent has the right, but it vanishes when the child becomes an adult.
A bully does NOT have the right and neither does the law. What these have is the 'power' do do so--but never the 'right'.
A slave-master also thinks he has the right, but I'll never again be a slave to the illogical rule-of-law.

Okay twyce...I went to your website, bc I find your comments bizarre...what do you say when the voice you hear says..."kill your mother, kill your mother" and then you do?

I've argued with your type many a times....what your types consistantly lack the basic point that your "inner beliefs or conscious" IS a product of society. Without the influence of society, you would not have a conscious. If you want the world you wish to live in, you will need to have a child and then put them in the wild with enough food to live the rest of his life so society can not influence them.

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Quoting Twyce

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I accuse the rule-of-law of being the worst crime against humanity. Law and law enforcement forcibly strips us of our god-granted freedom and it delivers only crime in return. Some might erroneously think that ‘the law protects us’, but it doesn’t: law only seeks to preserve it’s own sanctity. Instead of protection, the law paints a crime target on people and grants the criminal a way to sidestep his conscience.

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In a way I agree. I justice system is screwed up. We have people locked up in prison that don't belong there. We lock people up because they're poor, mentally challenged, or suffer from an addiction. My states (Texas) department of justice freely admitted 85% of all inmates are non-violent.

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My states (Texas) department of justice freely admitted 85% of all inmates are non-violent.

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Please provide a legitimate source for this statement. Even the ACLU does not support your statement. I would think that if anybody would, it would be the ACLU.

I, too, am a Texan and while I admit that our prison population is astronomically large and that many would be better served by counseling (if that person is at the point to willingly accept help and responsibility and WANTS to change his or her life), the number I get for non-violent inmates is around 55%.

Many of those non-violent inmates are incarcerated due to VOP. So, they were originally sentenced to probation, as opposed to jail/prison. They blew that chance. The ONLY ones responsible for their subsequent incarceration are themselves.

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Quoting jojo4

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I, too, am a Texan and while I admit that our prison population is astronomically large and that many would be better served by counseling (if that person is at the point to willingly accept help and responsibility and WANTS to change his or her life),

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Correct. A lot of inmates are young people. Most of which we're under the influence of older adults who have spent their entire lives in and out of the system. The ONLY way to rehabilitate the younger generations is to completely remove them from their past environment. All prison does is expose them to more harden criminals.

Young people are very easy to influence. For example: let's say you grew up in a family of drug dealers. Chances are you would turn out the same why. But if you grew up in a family for decent, hard-working people, theres a good chance you would follow in their footsteps

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

BlueEagle for President.


Well...you do make more sense than anybody else running for prez.:D

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Quoting seniorjudge

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

BlueEagle for President.


Well...you do make more sense than anybody else running for prez.:D

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Thank you... I think...

I did vote today in the Texas (YEE HAW) primaries. Although I had to vote for Paul. My name wasn't on the ballot. :p

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Quoting Twyce

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I accuse the rule-of-law of being the worst crime against humanity. Law and law enforcement forcibly strips us of our god-granted freedom and it delivers only crime in return. Some might erroneously think that ‘the law protects us’, but it doesn’t: law only seeks to preserve it’s own sanctity. Instead of protection, the law paints a crime target on people and grants the criminal a way to sidestep his conscience.

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And who should care what YOU "accuse" the law of?

I suppose you prefer anarchy where the strong prey on the weak, because that's what you have without law and order.

- Carl

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Correct. A lot of inmates are young people. Most of which we're under the influence of older adults who have spent their entire lives in and out of the system. The ONLY way to rehabilitate the younger generations is to completely remove them from their past environment. All prison does is expose them to more harden criminals.

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Agreed.
The problem is not the prision system. Its only over crowded because society has not figured out a way to deal with drug and alcohol addiction. The medical field has answered the call of fixing the problem by closing down rehabilitation facilities bc they are not cost effective. The insurance company lobbists have really won this battle. You can ask any cop out there if the alcohol/drug offenses are on the rise or decline and they will surely tell you that it's on the rise. It's nuts.
My solution? I have one...
Educate them. Place them all in a program ...1 or 2 years depending on your length of use and criminal history. I would put them in a lock down boot camp facility where they must participate in exercise, school and community (their own community). It will not be FAITH based, but education based. No organized steps or prayers unless it's done on their own free time and after their homework is done. They will get their GED and college if they choose and learn how to live making the correct choices. They will earn self esteem and proper coping skills to deal with life as it comes up. Upon completion they will be placed on probation and with good behavior their record will be expunged or given a pardon. This solution would of course only apply to those nonviolent drug/alcohol offenses.
The way the system is set up now, they go back to prision bc they can't get jobs bc of their records.
What do you all think of my pipe dream?

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Quoting blueeagle

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In a way I agree. I justice system is screwed up. We have people locked up in prison that don't belong there. We lock people up because they're poor, mentally challenged, or suffer from an addiction. My states (Texas) department of justice freely admitted 85% of all inmates are non-violent.

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So ... you would prefer thieves and their ilk be allowed to continue their plunder? Thieves cost society and the economy far more than violent criminals, so from a pure fiduciary point of view, it would seem prudent to lock up thieves more so than violent thugs.

But, we don't have to make that choice - we CAN incarcerate both when needed.

- Carl

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Quoting gigirle

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Agreed.
The problem is not the prision system. Its only over crowded because society has not figured out a way to deal with drug and alcohol addiction. The medical field has answered the call of fixing the problem by closing down rehabilitation facilities bc they are not cost effective. The insurance company lobbists have really won this battle. You can ask any cop out there if the alcohol/drug offenses are on the rise or decline and they will surely tell you that it's on the rise. It's nuts.
My solution? I have one...
Educate them. Place them all in a program ...1 or 2 years depending on your length of use and criminal history. I would put them in a lock down boot camp facility where they must participate in exercise, school and community (their own community). It will not be FAITH based, but education based. No organized steps or prayers unless it's done on their own free time and after their homework is done. They will get their GED and college if they choose and learn how to live making the correct choices. They will earn self esteem and proper coping skills to deal with life as it comes up. Upon completion they will be placed on probation and with good behavior their record will be expunged or given a pardon. This solution would of course only apply to those nonviolent drug/alcohol offenses.
The way the system is set up now, they go back to prision bc they can't get jobs bc of their records.
What do you all think of my pipe dream?

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Well said, my friend. You are almost as brilliant as I am. :p
I have long supported making prisons part of the health care and education department. I believe doctors and teachers would have far more luck than armed guards and attack dogs. I am aware SOME people deserve incarceration, but I believe the majority can be helped by other methods.

A few questions though...

Would this boot camp have bars and barded wire fences? I think locking people up like animals is counter-productive. It has to have an impact on their mental health. You work in medicine, is there any research to back this up?

Would they be allowed family visits? If so, how often?

You said it will only apply to substance abuse crimes. Why not theft crimes as well? Most theft offenders are non-violent.

Prehaps an age limit to the program? Say... 18-24? No reason to put these young kids in a place where 60 year old Charlie Mason look-a-likes live. :p

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Quoting cdwjava

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So ... you would prefer thieves and their ilk be allowed to continue their plunder? Thieves cost society and the economy far more than violent criminals, so from a pure fiduciary point of view, it would seem prudent to lock up thieves more so than violent thugs.

But, we don't have to make that choice - we CAN incarcerate both when needed.

- Carl

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I tend to disagree. My aunt is a parole officer, and she will tell you a man who steals from 100 house or sells 100 pounds of crack is still better than a man who rapes one child.

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Quoting blueeagle

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...
You are almost as brilliant as I am.
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Hey...no need to get nasty!

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Quoting seniorjudge

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Hey...no need to get nasty!

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That is the greatest compliment I have ever given anybody. You honestly don't expect me to consider anybody else an equal, do you? :p

Again, I am always amazed at people that judge other people as judgemental.

Makes my irony engine all quivery.

The poster's logic is based upon the belief that all humans have an inherent and unerring moral compass. We don't need law because our own inner voice will suffice.

This is no more accurate than assuming that if you leave a puppy alone long enough, eventually he will housebreak himself.

We must be taught the basics of right and wrong... without that information, most would resolve to the "id"... where only your personal interests are important and no one else's needs or wants matter.

I guess you never read "Lord of the Flies", huh?

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Quoting blueeagle

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I tend to disagree. My aunt is a parole officer, and she will tell you a man who steals from 100 house or sells 100 pounds of crack is still better than a man who rapes one child.

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I don't disagree ... and I have arrested all those folks. However, from a pure economic sense, the cost to society is greater with reagrds to the thief.

And, we CAN incarcerate both.

And while I don't know how it is in TX, you have to work real hard to go to prison in CA! Few felons see prison for their first few felony offenses. And, at least in 2006 (according to the Public Policy Institute), only some 40% of male inmates and 66% of female inmates were in prison for property or drug offenses ... 52% and 29% respectively were incarcerated for violent offenses. And, I guarantee you that NONE of these folks was in fro a first or even third offense for felony dope possession or burglary!

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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And while I don't know how it is in TX, you have to work real hard to go to prison in CA! Few felons see prison for their first few felony offenses. And, at least in 2006 (according to the Public Policy Institute), only some 40% of male inmates and 66% of female inmates were in prison for property or drug offenses ... 52% and 29% respectively were incarcerated for violent offenses. And, I guarantee you that NONE of these folks was in fro a first or even third offense for felony dope possession or burglary!

- Carl

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What if it's like a probation violation?

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Quoting blueeagle

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What if it's like a probation violation?

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Then it goes back to the original violation ... however, in my state, a probation violation tends to land a few days in county jail and NOT in prison. A parole violation can land a person back in prison.

However, consider that probation or parole are not rights - they are a benefit. The offense committed by the person would not have been committed had they been in custody, so the original offense still lives until the sentence has been served.

- Carl

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Would this boot camp have bars and barded wire fences?

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Ideally, it would be a compound or campus if you will. Yes, it would have to be controlled or barded wire fences as they are still criminals until completetion of program. But you wouldn't see them bc it would be on several acres with security. Nothing like it is now. No orange suits, but uniforms to indicate nothing more but what phase of rehab your in. Something that indicates pride not shame.

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Would they be allowed family visits? If so, how often?

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Yes and encourged to visit. Studies have showed that family involvement and support is important to making the right choices.

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You said it will only apply to substance abuse crimes. Why not theft crimes as well? Most theft offenders are non-violent.

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Never thought about it but I would have to say without thinking it thru...no. I mention alcohol and drugs bc they are mind altering and after enough use, the chemical composition is altered. Unless a theif is one bc he needs a fix then I would have to say no but I could be persuaded on this. Only for you buddy :)

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Prehaps an age limit to the program? Say... 18-24?

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Yes and no. I say this bc there are no age limits on addiction. I believe that this age group will benefit from it the most but your chronic alcoholics who start out using in this age group have a high incidence of liver failure in their 40's. Youngens can learn a lot from the elders. Talk about past behavior will be VERY LIMITED as it would be looked at as an opportunity to start clean, not learn how to get high a different way. Learn new positive behaviors. Participation will be of a willing nature as the reward is a clean start. I don't believe I ever met an addict that WANTED to be that way, they just didn't know how to stop. This program would teach them how to identify and cope with life.
As far as studies...the most success comes from a breif intervention, which would not apply to this population bc that would have already failed them. There are studies out there that show social/educational programs are more effective than 12 step programs. New York state to my knowledge is the only state that has supported this, but I could be wrong. I speak only from experience here in my "ideal" world.....which I try not to fix daily...lol
Glad you approve...when you get to be the President, can I be head of Health and Human Services?

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Quoting gigirle

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I've argued with your type many a times....what your types consistantly lack the basic point that your "inner beliefs or conscious" IS a product of society. Without the influence of society, you would not have a conscious. If you want the world you wish to live in, you will need to have a child and then put them in the wild with enough food to live the rest of his life so society can not influence them.

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I disagree. The human conscience is not a product of society. Instead, it is the soul's native thoughts and as such, they are the voice of god: which is why the human conscience always suggests the *good* action. For non-believers, theconscience could be argued to be the native thoughts of the (id or superego?) and the reason why it suggests good actions is because the natural order has programmed us to respect life. Either way, the conscience is a distinct part of our being AND the structure of the law offers a way of nullifying it's wrong-thwarting effect. I lived for eight minutes as only my soul (or as my non-animal self), so I feel I know how it thinks.

Why do you think a human body has a soul?

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Quoting cyjeff

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The poster's logic is based upon the belief that all humans have an inherent and unerring moral compass. We don't need law because our own inner voice will suffice.

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No, my post is not based on that. To understand what my logic is rooted on, you would have to comprehend what I'm saying. We don't need law because it is the wrong tool for the job. Certainly we do need a system for ordering and protecting society--BUT--law is NOT designed to actually do that. Law is primarily a way of keeping serfs in thrall to a ruling class: the punishment angle really proves what it truely is.

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Quoting cyjeff

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I guess you never read "Lord of the Flies", huh?

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Was the author the ultimate expert in humanity in a wild setting? I thought that was a work of FICTION. If I wrote a similar FICTION, but with a different result, would I be cited as the proof-of-the-pudding?

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Quoting seniorjudge

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Why do you think a human body has a soul?

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What does my faith have to do with this discussion? The undeniable fact that we DO have consciences, and that they always suggest the good action first (whether we listen to it or not), is sufficient back-grounding to support my arguments

Does anyone with an open mind want to participate in a valuable discussion on what is really wrong with law's basic theories and how we could fix them--or not?

You can try to discredit me and discount my opinions with judgemental and untrue comments...

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Quoting gigirle

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what do you say when the voice you hear says..."kill your mother, kill your mother" and then you do?

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...but I can describe exactly what is wrong with law and how it could be fixed (by dropping law and starting fresh) to the benefit of us all. Or, perhaps I can be proven wrong on the my points but I haven't been yet.

Or are you all afraid of engaging in a contoversial discussion?

I am open minded, your just not used to dealing with an educated woman. My comment was not judgmental, it was a simple one that you failed to answer.

My specific question here had a purpose but you apparently missed it. Some people do hear voices that say "kill you mother" and then they do! There are tons of people in the world who suffer from mental illness. And I for one WANT a system in place to protect me. Most of us non criminals don't have a problem with it.

I'm not afraid of engaging in a discussion but for it to qualify as a discussion, you would need to engage and answer questions posed to you and not preach or manipulate the question.
Are you going to answer? What do you say when the voice you hear says, "kill your mother, kill your mother?" and then they do?

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Quoting gigirle

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Glad you approve...when you get to be the President, can I be head of Health and Human Services?

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I can think of no one better. :)

What do you think of Ron Paul's plan to pardon all federal drug offenders? Would you support this if it went into effect? I know it probably never will... but what if it did?

I would probably support it. The main problem I have with drug/alcohol crimes is 95% are victim-less. I fail to see how we can consider something a crime if there is NO victim. This goes against everything our founding fathers believed in.

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Quoting gigirle

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I am open minded, your just not used to dealing with an educated woman. My comment was not judgmental, it was a simple one that you failed to answer.

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It doesn't matter to me if you are male, female or transgender. Your comment seemed to be trying to paint me with a crazy brush so you wouldn't have to try to understand what I was talking about. Mocking is easier and perhaps safer than trying to wrap your mind around a radical concept. However, since you've said I misread the intent of your remark, I'll drop the issue that I took at it.

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Quoting gigirle

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My specific question here had a purpose but you apparently missed it. Some people do hear voices that say "kill you mother" and then they do! There are tons of people in the world who suffer from mental illness. And I for one WANT a system in place to protect me. Most of us non criminals don't have a problem with it.

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You should have a problem with it, because much of the rampant crime is inspired by, supported by, and assisted by the law itself. As I've been trying to explain, law's theory is society's biggest problem and it is unnecessarilly so. People could fix justice so that it actually protected us and so that it was actually just--as law NEVER is.

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Quoting gigirle

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Are you going to answer? What do you say when the voice you hear says, "kill your mother, kill your mother?" and then they do?

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I've never heard this and I doubt I ever will. Though I think I once heard something about Satan when turning a Beatles album around the needle backwards. :)

Seriously, I'm even less likely than you to ever commit a murder. I don't believe in law, so I don't have the law's route to circumvent my conscience with. I also see the law as non-existant, so I can't/won't commit a harm against a person simply to make a political statement against a non-entity. I'm not 'law-abiding', I just refrain from doing things that are against the law--because most illegal things are also the morally wrong thing to do. Most of us don't need laws to tell us what is right, and those who do could be dealt with better under protective justice, than with law.

I am sure I will regret this, but I have to ask ...

What IS "Protective Justice", and how does such a thing work?

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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I am sure I will regret this, but I have to ask ...

What IS "Protective Justice", and how does such a thing work?

- Carl

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Thats where you pay the cops to protect you. :p

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Quoting cdwjava

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I am sure I will regret this, but I have to ask ...

What IS "Protective Justice", and how does such a thing work?

- Carl

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http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/show...t=43951&page=3

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Quoting blueeagle

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Thats where you pay the cops to protect you. :p

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So ... I could advance to the world of "highly" paid private security? Great! :D

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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So ... I could advance to the world of "highly" paid private security? Great! :D

- Carl

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I start them out at 5.25 an hour. :P

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Quoting Happy Trails

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http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/show...t=43951&page=3

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Ooooookay ...

Anyone call the men in the white jackets yet? :confused:

Sorry I asked!

- Carl