California - Pulled over doing 95 on 65

I just turned 18 two weeks ago and I drive a 100 mile one way to commute to school everyday. I rarely EVER speed on the way to school as I leave extrememly early in the morning, but because of some circumstances, I had to speed in order to get to class on time. I know I was violating the law and I shouldn't have done it and I feel absolutely horrible about it. I'm pretty sure I was NOT going 95, but his lights came up and all I could think about was pulling over so I didn't have time to check.

I would just like to ask for some legal advice for the matter. I have no prior traffic violations but have recieved a point for being considered at fault for an accident. I was clocked at 95, but it doesn't state how, besides under Radar Unit / Patrol Vehicle No. it says 9104 / 163, which I assume is the radar unit number and his patrol vehicle number.

I was coming down the 152 Mountain Pass which is pretty dangerous as is, but I finally made it to the straight away and passed a few cars before I got to the 1 lane. In the effort, I can assume I hit 95, but I'm totally not sure. His lights came on and I pulled over for him.

I acted properly and did not argue, but he did come back after the citation was written and ask me "It's still early in the morning, why are you driving so fast?" and I responded with "Oh, I have class soon in Cupertino," and we had a small conversation about that. Now I'm wondering if he was just trying to collect evidence to try against me.

The vehicle code I violated was 22349 Speed, which seems like a stanard traffic ticket, with "I" circled for infraction. He also wrote 95 and kinda circled it which went over "M" for misdemeanor as well. Could I have possibly gotten both or was it just an error of his pen?

Am I still eligible for traffic school going 30 over the limit in CA? Should I hire a traffic attorney or go to court? Or can I just pay the fine and go to traffic school and have it clean off my record?

I have heard many opinions from many people today. One person mentioned that traffic school is not available to you if you're going 25 over the limit. Which sounds right to me although I wish it weren't true. If so, is there still anyway I can sign up for traffic school?

I'm sorry for the length of this post. I'm a little upset, so I tend to vent a lot. If anyone has any helpful information, please let me know.

At 30 over you are not going to be eligible for traffic school. There are attorneys that practice nothing but traffic matters and for a relatively low fee they might be able to represent you so that you don't have to go back and forth a time or two.

There are ways to challenge speeding cites, but they rarely work and they require a huge dedication on your part to legal details and minutiae - such as laws of discovery, motions, speed surveys, etc. Very often they are far more hassle than they are worth.

Unless you have a dismal DMV history, this will not result in a suspension of your license. And there is always the possibility that a kind old judge MIGHT show mercy, reduce the speed or the offense, and make you eligible for traffic school ... not likely, but theoretically possible.

And, of course, the officer may not show up in court.

- Carl

Who says a judge cannot allow attendance to traffic school just because one is traveling 30 mpg over the limit?!?!!?!?

Where do you come up with this stuff?! It is the same propaganda pablum that crook bailiffs improperly instruct citizens in court.

NRM, I suggest you appear at arraignment and tell a judge it is your first citation and you intend on making it your last citation, tell them that rather than contest it since you have never attended traffic school you would request being allowed to do so.

By the way, never answer any cops questions like he asked you. You could get it quashed on a motion as you were under arrest at the time, as his question was strictly interrogative in nature designed specifically to elicit incriminating information. NEVER falls for that criminal behavior on the part of the cop, for he violated your civil rights by failing to Mirandize you.

You would just think it would be eaiser for the cops to uphold the law, but apparently a lot of them think that laws apply to everyone but them or it just never occured to them to obey the law.

Oh, and I previously meant mph not mpg...the g key is right next to the h key, I swear it! lol

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Quoting DaveBis

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Who says a judge cannot allow attendance to traffic school just because one is traveling 30 mpg over the limit?!?!!?!?

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The CA Vehicle Code.

CVC 42005(f):

Notwithstanding subdivision (b), a court may not order a
person to attend traffic violator school in lieu of adjudicating an
offense if the person was issued a notice to appear for a serious
traffic violation, as defined in subdivision (i) of Section 15210,
that occurred in a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in
subdivision (b) of Section 15210.

And at last check, exceeding the posted speed by 26+ MPH was considered to be "excessive speeding" pursuant to CVC 15210.

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Where do you come up with this stuff?!

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From California state law.

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It is the same propaganda pablum that crook bailiffs improperly instruct citizens in court.

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Yeah ... that darn law! It's so inconvenient at times! :roll:

- Carl

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Quoting DaveBis

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NRM, I suggest you appear at arraignment and tell a judge it is your first citation and you intend on making it your last citation, tell them that rather than contest it since you have never attended traffic school you would request being allowed to do so.

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And if the judge wants to order Traffic school, he can reduce the offense to include a speed of 25 MPH or less. Otherwise, state law specifically prevents him from allowing Traffic School.

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By the way, never answer any cops questions like he asked you. You could get it quashed on a motion as you were under arrest at the time, as his question was strictly interrogative in nature designed specifically to elicit incriminating information.

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And where do you get THAT line?

Even the USSC has ruled that interrogatory questioning during a detention for a traffic stop do NOT trigger "custody" as it relates to Miranda.

Please read up and the status of Constitutional law before you post that kind of misleading information.

- Carl

I was only cited for 22349 Speeding, which I felt glad that I didn't get cited for wreckless driving. But I'm not sure if that could appear later.

Over the past few hours, I've been reading up and doing a little research. And cdwjava is right about the vehicle code, but I have heard that with a guilty with explaination plea, there's a better possibility of me getting into traffic school just to keep me out of the already backed up courtroom. Carl, you really have your things straight and I thank you for the quick advice in my time of need right now.

I'm just curious if this would be considered for a 1 point violation or a 2 point violation? And how many points before suspension of my license? I'm really bugged out about this, I have a total of a 200 mile commute 4 days a week and I do my best to avoid tickets, I was just trying to speed up to get around the trucks in the merge lane so that it would maximize the chance of me being on time.

If I don't get a chance for traffic school, I will just have to pay the fines and take the points on my license, and then take my name off of the AAA insurance and just drive solo for a while with just my mom's insurance on the car.

Oh yes, by the way, how long does it take after you recieve your points for the insurance companies to get a hold of it and raise your premium? Would it come in the following month if you're paying monthly, or in the next year if you're paying yearly?

Honest, thank you for all of your help.

Also I'm curious as to this as well.

https://www.sanmateocourt.org/traffi...ligibility.asp

That is the court that is listed on my ticket. And they don't mention the 25 and over rule. I know I committed a violation and I will pay for it, there are just some questions wandering my mind that I'd love for someone to clear up.

Also, this is my first ticket, am I forced to go to the court that is listed on my ticket or can I go to a court closer to the areas I live and go to school. As I said, I have a 200 daily commute and it would be way more convenient if I could go to a court near school during the day time.

The notice you receive from the court should indicate if you are eligible or not. At 26 over you shouldn't be unless they lower the speed. And CVC 22349 is a one point violation.

And the site doesn't mention a whole lot of violations and circumstances that are ineligible for traffic school ... notice it says: "other certain specified violations" are not eligible.

At the time of the citation you could have requested to be cited into the court at the county seat. But, now you'd have to try for a change of venue - not too likely for traffic matters, but it might be possible. However, they will NOT change it to another county - it would have to be to a county traffic court in the county where you live.

- Carl

I live in Merced County, cited in San Mateo County, and school in Santa Clara County. I really wish I knew how everything was going on so I could have better worked out the situation.

Just clarifying, but I can't have my arraignment in another county or anywhere closer to my school? If that's the case, I'll just have to deal with it. I just know that my father got pulled over in the exact same spot by the same police officer, went to a court in Santa Clara county, paid his bail and requested traffic school and went in Santa Clara county.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

Just looked the address up, it's only about 35 minutes away from my school, so if I go after class during daylight hours, I should be okay.

cdwjava: Is there anything you can suggest I do? Should I plead guilty with an explanation and explain that I was trying to pass a line of trucks before the merge so I could make it to school on time? Or should I just explain that it's my first and last citation. You seem to have quite a bit of experience and I would like to know your opinion on the matter. I would absolutely love traffic school, but if it isn't possible by law, then I'll just have to deal with the consequences.

What would be a good explanation if I were to plead guilty with explanation?

Sorry, I just realized that my court house is in San Martin, which is part of Santa Clara County. So it should be possible for me to go to another closer court house right? It doesn't make much of a difference either way, but it would just be more convienent.

You could only be tried in a court within the county of jurisdiction. And traffic cases CAN be transferred to another Santa Clara County Court, but this is not common in my experience.

If it were me, I would attend court and wait to see if the officer shows. If the officer does not show, and he has not provided adequate notice to the court for a continuance, the case will likely be dismissed. If he does show, you can always plead guilty with an explanation and ask if it might be possible to take traffic school or if the court could modify the vioolation to make you eligible.

You can alsoconsider contacting a traffic attorney (there are several that do nothing but traffic in the S.C. County area) and see if they might be able to do something for you. They might know the likelihood of getting a reduction to make you eligible for traffic school ... but it might cost you several hundred dollars.

Good luck!

- Carl

Sorry, this would be my first court appearance, so it'd be great if you could answer a few more questions.

If I go to an arraignment and intend to plead guilty with explaniation, the arresting officer still needs to show? And if he doesn't show, my case would be dismissed? Is that how it works?

I'll take your advice to heart and follow it. I do intend on contacting a traffic attorney during the upcoming week and seeing what they can actually do. If they can make sure I'm eligible for traffic school, I'm willing to pay a few hundred dollars.

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The CA Vehicle Code.

CVC 42005(f):

Notwithstanding subdivision (b), a court may not order a
person to attend traffic violator school in lieu of adjudicating an
offense if the person was issued a notice to appear for a serious
traffic violation, as defined in subdivision (i) of Section 15210,
that occurred in a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in
subdivision (b) of Section 15210.

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You really ought to read the posts you cite to claim that one cannot attend traffic school.....

Is there any part of "commercial vehicle" you don't understand?

Motions for a change of venue to the county seat are easy if you know what you are doing.

The few times I got citations I always demanded of the cop that the venue to be at the county seat. The idea is if it is further away then his home kangaroo court, he is less likely to show up.....when that would happen, I would move the court to find the cop in contempt of corut for disobedience of a lawful subpoena and ask that a bench warrant be issued for his arrest. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.....

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Quoting DaveBis

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Motions for a change of venue to the county seat are easy if you know what you are doing.

The few times I got citations I always demanded of the cop that the venue to be at the county seat. The idea is if it is further away then his home kangaroo court, he is less likely to show up.....when that would happen, I would move the court to find the cop in contempt of corut for disobedience of a lawful subpoena and ask that a bench warrant be issued for his arrest. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.....

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How would I go about motioning for a change of venue after I get the ticket? Would I just call the court house and asked for it to be moved to another court in the area?

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Quoting DaveBis

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You really ought to read the posts you cite to claim that one cannot attend traffic school.....

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Well, as it turns out a new section became active on 9/20/05 anyway ... the previous section is no longer applicable.

However, it does seem that unless the driver held a commercial license OR the offense occurred in a commercial vehicle that there is no statutory prohibition against traffic school. The prohibition is, instead, a matter of individual court policy - and this has tended to be 26 MPH.

So, yes, THIS time I was in error. Thank you for oh so kindly pointing it out.

- Carl

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Quoting DaveBis

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when that would happen, I would move the court to find the cop in contempt of corut for disobedience of a lawful subpoena and ask that a bench warrant be issued for his arrest. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.....

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And I'm sure THAT happens.

Though there was a judge in San Diego County that did that for a short time ... it ticked off a lot of traffic offenders because suddenly attendance skyrocketed as agencies established policies that would result in discipline against officers for failing to show.

If my officers FTA I get a call from the judge so I know about it. And they are required to submit to me - in writing - their "excuse". This memo and any counseling or other discipline is placed into their personnel record.

Needless to say I have had one officer FTA in the last 2 years.

- Carl

And it is that individual policy of the court that the court must not abused, and denying someone the right to go to traffic school just because they they elect to go to trial has been deemed by published appellate deciscions to be abusive and therefore prohibited.

As to the speed differential, that is why he must ask first if he can go to traffic school. If the court says yes, then he might as well go trial, he has nothing to lose but time and everything to gain.....

Makes me wonder why the illegal kangaroo courts and monkey bailiffs have been telling lies for for years, and they have always been wrong about traffic school. You would think the rule of law means something to them, but obviously not.

I have no problems with paying a fine if I am convicted for violating the elaborate taxation rules they scheme up, but for damn sure they had better abide by all the rules in doing so or they will get called on their hypocrisy.

Hi guys, I'm sorry, but I'm not too saavy with the technical talks, can one of you please clarify what you are discussing?

Am I going to be able to attend traffic school for this citation? And if I am, I should go to court and try to plead against it because no matter what the case verdict is, I will still be eligible for traffic school? Is that what's going on?

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Quoting NRM

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Hi guys, I'm sorry, but I'm not too saavy with the technical talks, can one of you please clarify what you are discussing?

Am I going to be able to attend traffic school for this citation? And if I am, I should go to court and try to plead against it because no matter what the case verdict is, I will still be eligible for traffic school? Is that what's going on?

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What it means that unless you have a commercial license or were driving a commercial vehicle you are not prohibited by statute from attending traffic school. Court policy, however, MAY not provide you with that option. And, of course, prior traffic school can also prohibit you from attending - depending on how long ago it was.

When you receive your notice from the court they will advise if you are eligible for traffic school. And, in spite of the cited case law, the court still has the discretion of assigning traffic school or not at the conclusion of trial. It is, however, common practice for traffic school NOT to be provided on a guilty verdict received during trial.

- Carl

Thanks for the clarification.

So if I'm allowed traffic school, I should take it, because if I go through trial and end up guilty, I may lose my right to traffic school. But if I'm not allowed to take traffic school, there's no reason for me not to go to trial, as I may stand a chance after that. Is a trial different than the arraignment? I'll have to look up and see if I can dig some information about court policies here in Santa Clara.

I know I could wait until I get my notice in about 2 weeks, but this thing has been itching on the back of my mind for a while now. The court date is set to December 9, 2005. Do you know anything about Trial By Written Declaration? Someone provided me a site through PM and I don't know much about it or if it's a good practice at all.

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Quoting NRM

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Thanks for the clarification.

So if I'm allowed traffic school, I should take it, because if I go through trial and end up guilty, I may lose my right to traffic school. But if I'm not allowed to take traffic school, there's no reason for me not to go to trial, as I may stand a chance after that. Is a trial different than the arraignment? I'll have to look up and see if I can dig some information about court policies here in Santa Clara.

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Correct ... you MAY not be offered traffic school should you lose at trial.

Whether you should contest it or not is, of course, your call. If you think you stand a good chance of instilling reasonable doubt on the matter, or want to chance that the officer might not show, you can always plead not guilty and go to trial. Generally you are given the chance BEFORE trial (i.e. before you take the stand to testify) to plead 'not guilty' or 'no contest' in exchange for Traffic School if you are eligible.

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I know I could wait until I get my notice in about 2 weeks, but this thing has been itching on the back of my mind for a while now. The court date is set to December 9, 2005. Do you know anything about Trial By Written Declaration? Someone provided me a site through PM and I don't know much about it or if it's a good practice at all.

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I have heard many different things about trials by declaration ... some good, some bad. The good thing is that if you lose you can request a 'trial de novo' which is, essentially, a new trial. However, I have also heard that some courts will remove traffic school as an option on the new trial ... but I don't know that for a fact.

The advantages of a trial by declaration is that you get a chance to be articulate. The problem is that unless you have a good defense, you are essentially writing that you are guilty and providing an explanation. If you don't have a good, articulable defense, then you may want to take a chance in court that the officer will not show up.

There are books and links all over the place that can tell you how to write a TBD. How good they are, I couldn't say. In my 15 years in the career I have had to write only one, and I know of few officers that have had to write many more.

- Carl

Carl thanks for the plethora of information. Are you a laywer in the SC area? If I am granted traffic school, I'll most definitely just pay the bail and go to school. I honestly do not have a good defense as I most certainly was speeding (probably not as fast as he wrote), but I was on the downhill section and trying to get around trucks.

So unless I do a little research about radar gun calibration and all that good jazz, I probably won't be able to articulate a good defense. But if I'm not granted the option of traffic school, I may just go on ahead with it is I can't lose more than I can gain. They can't up the fines at court could they? Or even bump it up to wreckless driving?

They can't generally raise the fines in court ... but they might add court fees to the total - and this can be substantial. And they won't up it to reckless driving as speed by itself cannot constitute a violation of CVC 23103 ... and they are not permitted to blindside you in court that way.

No, I'm not an attorney, I'm a cop. But I am familiar with the Bay Area having lived there for most my life.

- Carl

Oh, and for DaveBis, I found the rules of court that establish the traffic school eligibility ... I KNEW I wasn't recalling this from out of nowhere!

The breakdown seems to have been that the CLERK cannot offer traffic school to someone exceeding 25 MPH (i.e. offer it before trial), but, apparently, the court CAN.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/rules/ti....htm#TopOfPage

Rule 851. Procedures and eligibility criteria for attending traffic violator school

(a) [Purpose] The purpose of this rule is to establish uniform statewide procedures and criteria for eligibility to attend traffic violator school.

(Subd (a) amended effective January 1, 2003; previously amended effective July 1, 2001.)

(b) [Authority of a court clerk to grant pretrial diversion]


(1) (Eligible offenses) Except as provided in subdivision (2), a court clerk is authorized to grant a request to attend traffic violator school when a defendant with a valid driver's license requests to attend an 8-hour traffic violator school as pretrial diversion under Vehicle Code sections 41501(b) and 42005 for any infraction under divisions 11 and 12 (rules of the road and equipment violations) of the Vehicle Code if the violation is reportable to the Department of Motor Vehicles.

(2) (Ineligible offenses) A court clerk is not authorized to grant a request to attend traffic violator school for a misdemeanor or any of the following infractions:

(A) A violation that carries a negligent operator point count of more than one point under Vehicle Code section 12810 or more than one and one-half points under Vehicle Code section 12810.5(b)(2);

(B) A violation that occurs within 18 months after the date of a previous violation and the defendant either attended or elected to attend a traffic violator school for the previous violation (Veh. Code, §1808.7);

(C) A violation of Vehicle Code section 22406.5 (tank vehicles);

(D) A violation related to alcohol use or possession or drug use or possession;

(E) A violation on which the defendant failed to appear under Vehicle Code section 40508(a) unless the failure-to-appear charge has been adjudicated and any fine imposed has been paid;

(F) A violation on which the defendant has failed to appear under Penal Code section 1214.1 unless the civil monetary assessment has been paid;

(G) A speeding violation in which the speed alleged is more than 25 miles over a speed limit as set forth in Chapter 7 (commencing with section 22348) of Division 11 of the Vehicle Code;

(H) A violation that occurs in a commercial vehicle as defined in Vehicle Code section 15210(b); and

(I) A violation by a defendant having a class A, class B, or commercial class C driver's license.

(Subd (b) amended effective September 20, 2005; previously amended effective January 1, 2003.)

(c) [Judicial discretion]

(1) A judicial officer may in his or her discretion order attendance at a traffic violator school in an individual case for diversion under Vehicle Code section 41501(a), 41501(b), or 42005; sentencing; or any other purpose permitted by law. A violation by a defendant having a class A, class B, or commercial class C driver's license or that occurs in a commercial vehicle, as defined in Vehicle Code section 15210(b), is not eligible for diversion pursuant to Vehicle Code sections 41501 or 42005.

(2) If a violation occurs within 18 months of a previous violation, a judicial officer may order a continuance and dismissal in consideration for completion of a licensed program as specified in Vehicle Code section 41501(a). The program must consist of at least 12 hours of instruction as specified in section 41501(a). Pursuant to Vehicle Code section 1808.7, a dismissal for completion of the 12-hour program under this subdivision is not confidential.

(Subd (c) amended effective September 20, 2005; amended and relettered as part of subd (b) effective January 1, 2003; previously amended effective January 1, 1998.)

Rule 851 amended effective September 20, 2005; adopted effective January 1, 1997; previously amended effective January 1, 1998, July 1, 2001, and January 1, 2003.

- Carl

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Quoting cdwjava

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They can't generally raise the fines in court ... but they might add court fees to the total - and this can be substantial. And they won't up it to reckless driving as speed by itself cannot constitute a violation of CVC 23103 ... and they are not permitted to blindside you in court that way.

No, I'm not an attorney, I'm a cop. But I am familiar with the Bay Area having lived there for most my life.

- Carl

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I thought that court fees were taken from the bail amount. Maybe I was wrong.

As for the rest, does that mean I can't get traffic school by pleading guilty with explanation and asking for a request? Or would I have to go through the trial process to request it?

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Quoting "NRM

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I thought that court fees were taken from the bail amount. Maybe I was wrong.

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The courts are permitted to extract fees for their costs in addition to the fines. Specifically what these are kind of varies. At the office I have a copy of the standardized fines and fees ... though there are a few fees that are permitted to be added on. Ultimately, you might have to contact the court handling your matter to know what costs might be added on after court.

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As for the rest, does that mean I can't get traffic school by pleading guilty with explanation and asking for a request? Or would I have to go through the trial process to request it?

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No, you CAN get traffic school by requesting it IF you are eligible.

When you get the courtesy notice you will know if you are eligible without a judge's approval or not. If you are not eligible due to the speed for a pre-trial traffic school request, a judge can always act to allow you to attend traffic school. That would mean going to trial unless it can be resolved by a judge at arraignment (your first hearing - the date on the citation).

- Carl

Alright thank you. About the date of arraignment, can I rescedule it or make an appointment? I still have 3 months, but the date on the ticket is not good for me. Can I go to an earlier one?

You usually can go earlier. Call the court and find out how you might arrange that. Most courts will work with you on that.

- Carl

Motions for a change of venue tend to be only granted if you were notified to appear at a court that is not the county seat court, and you claim you told the citing officer you wanted the county seat.

The county seat is where the business of the county is conducted.....find out what your county seat is in yoru county, and if is different than where you were told to appear, get Nolo Press' book "Fight Your Ticket" and there is a sample change of venue motion in it.

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Quoting DaveBis

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Motions for a change of venue tend to be only granted if you were notified to appear at a court that is not the county seat court, and you claim you told the citing officer you wanted the county seat.

The county seat is where the business of the county is conducted.....find out what your county seat is in yoru county, and if is different than where you were told to appear, get Nolo Press' book "Fight Your Ticket" and there is a sample change of venue motion in it.

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I'm planning on purchasing the ebook once my new debit card arrives in the mail after being lost. Can I just call out the court later after my letter arrives and tell them that I requested to the officer that I wanted to be in the county seat, but he didn't put the county seat? The county seat is around 40 miles away from the original court house, so it might give me a slightly better chance that he won't show up.

If traffic school is not an option, I plan to go ahead and fight the ticket. I've researched quite a bit online today. Some information sounding more usuable than others, mainly tipmra.com and some other sites. A lot sound like propaganda, but I'll look more into it during my weekend off.

Fight Your Ticket

Is that the book you were referring to?

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Quoting NRM

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Can I just call out the court later after my letter arrives and tell them that I requested to the officer that I wanted to be in the county seat, but he didn't put the county seat?

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So you plan to lie about it?

- Carl

I'm not quite sure yet. To be honest, I wish I knew the option was available before he wrote me the ticket, and if I had, I surely would have requested it.

I called in yesterday and they told me if I wanted to go to the arraignment, I would have to go to the court house listed and I couldn't get it changed. They didn't even tell me that I could have requested it change. It seems more like something only people in-the-know could have done.

I don't want to lie, but having to drive 30-40 miles between classes during school hours to make the arraignment days, it would be the most convienent for me. Would there be adverse consequences for saying that I said it, or would he be contacted about it? I don't want to be getting anyone in trouble who shouldn't be, I just wish I had known more before the incident.

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Quoting NRM

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I'm not quite sure yet. To be honest, I wish I knew the option was available before he wrote me the ticket, and if I had, I surely would have requested it.

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There's no law requiring that we mention it as an option.

Fortunately for me, I work in my county seat so they get cited in to the county seat either way.

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Would there be adverse consequences for saying that I said it, or would he be contacted about it? I don't want to be getting anyone in trouble who shouldn't be, I just wish I had known more before the incident.

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Well, considering that he could get in trouble for not citing you in to the county seat upon request - its the law - he would most certainly be asked about it. And you could get in trouble for lying about it, yes. It's something we do remember. In 15 years in this job I've been asked about it only once.

- Carl

Oh, I didn't think it was anything as severe as that. I know that there is no law requiring that you mention it, I just wish I had known from somewhere before I got the ticket. I guess I'll just have to forget about that for now.