ExpertLaw.com Forums

Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options

Printable View

  • 05-08-2020, 10:29 AM
    gardening123
    Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    My question involves an injury that occurred in the state of: PA

    I was walking on a public roadway. A group of medium-sized dogs came running towards me off of someone's property. The dogs came into the public roadway, circled around me, barking. The apparent owners of the dogs were probably 20-30 yards away calling to the dogs, but the dogs weren't responding.

    Eventually, some of the dogs returned to the property. One came back out into the road, continued to bark, and touched my hand with its nose or mouth, but it did not bite. The owners made light of the situation and said the dogs would not harm me. I was very uncomfortable with what happened.

    Questions:

    1. I want to write a letter to the homeowners stating my frustration with what happened, and reminding them of the various civil and perhaps legal liabilities they are exposed to if their dogs get loose and bite me or any other neighbors. I think they need to be reminded of the serious risk they place themselves in by allowing this to occur. What guidelines should I follow for this? I was also thinking of including a copy of our State's dog laws, which clearly state dogs must be under the owner's "direct control".

    2. Self-defense: I sometimes carry defense spray when I walk as its a semi-rural area and there could be any number of animals encountered. I also usually walk with a cane or walking stick. What duty to retreat does someone who is walking on a public roadway have if they are approached by barking (threatening) dogs who do not respond to their owner's commands and are not physically restrained? What self-defense is reasonable in a situation like this? What would be considered excessive?

    I hope I never have to encounter these dogs again. However, I walk constantly for health issues and this is not the only time I've had a close call with dog(s). I don't want to hurt any dogs, but I also don't want to be hurt (or worse) myself.
  • 05-08-2020, 10:46 AM
    llworking
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post
    My question involves an injury that occurred in the state of: PA

    I was walking on a public roadway. A group of medium-sized dogs came running towards me off of someone's property. The dogs came into the public roadway, circled around me, barking. The apparent owners of the dogs were probably 20-30 yards away calling to the dogs, but the dogs weren't responding.

    Eventually, some of the dogs returned to the property. One came back out into the road, continued to bark, and touched my hand with its nose or mouth, but it did not bite. The owners made light of the situation and said the dogs would not harm me. I was very uncomfortable with what happened.

    Questions:

    1. I want to write a letter to the homeowners stating my frustration with what happened, and reminding them of the various civil and perhaps legal liabilities they are exposed to if their dogs get loose and bite me or any other neighbors. I think they need to be reminded of the serious risk they place themselves in by allowing this to occur. What guidelines should I follow for this? I was also thinking of including a copy of our State's dog laws, which clearly state dogs must be under the owner's "direct control".

    2. Self-defense: I sometimes carry defense spray when I walk as its a semi-rural area and there could be any number of animals encountered. I also usually walk with a cane or walking stick. What duty to retreat does someone who is walking on a public roadway have if they are approached by barking (threatening) dogs who do not respond to their owner's commands and are not physically restrained? What self-defense is reasonable in a situation like this? What would be considered excessive?

    I hope I never have to encounter these dogs again. However, I walk constantly for health issues and this is not the only time I've had a close call with dog(s). I don't want to hurt any dogs, but I also don't want to be hurt (or worse) myself.

    Personally? I would just not walk by that property again. If you mace or cane a dog who is barking but not attacking, you will likely make them more likely to bite you out of pain, fear and defense. I doubt that writing the owner a letter would change anything.
  • 05-08-2020, 11:33 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post

    1. I want to write a letter to the homeowners stating my frustration with what happened, and reminding them of the various civil and perhaps legal liabilities they are exposed to if their dogs get loose and bite me or any other neighbors. I think they need to be reminded of the serious risk they place themselves in by allowing this to occur. What guidelines should I follow for this? I was also thinking of including a copy of our State's dog laws, which clearly state dogs must be under the owner's "direct control".

    Don't waste your time. Unless those people have been living under a rock they know their responsibilities and just don't care to comply with them.

    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post

    2. Self-defense: I sometimes carry defense spray when I walk as its a semi-rural area and there could be any number of animals encountered. I also usually walk with a cane or walking stick. What duty to retreat does someone who is walking on a public roadway have if they are approached by barking (threatening) dogs who do not respond to their owner's commands and are not physically restrained? What self-defense is reasonable in a situation like this? What would be considered excessive?

    You have no duty to retreat when it comes to animals. Buy the pepper spray that has at least a 10' range. Carry two on belt clips so you can wield one quickly. Spray when the dog gets to the 10' mark. The dog isn't likely to be coming any closer after being sprayed but keep spraying if it does and use your cane or stick if it gets too close.

    I don't like the idea of injuring dogs any more than you do but self defense is self defense and negligent dog owners need a lesson in what they risk by letting their dogs run loose.
  • 05-08-2020, 12:30 PM
    pg1067
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post
    I want to write a letter to the homeowners stating my frustration with what happened, and reminding them of the various civil and perhaps legal liabilities they are exposed to if their dogs get loose and bite me or any other neighbors. I think they need to be reminded of the serious risk they place themselves in by allowing this to occur. What guidelines should I follow for this? I was also thinking of including a copy of our State's dog laws, which clearly state dogs must be under the owner's "direct control".

    I don't really understand this question. There are no legal "guidelines" for writing letters that will serve no useful purpose.


    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post
    What duty to retreat does someone who is walking on a public roadway have if they are approached by barking (threatening) dogs who do not respond to their owner's commands and are not physically restrained? What self-defense is reasonable in a situation like this? What would be considered excessive?

    Questions about the reasonableness require knowledge of all relevant facts and can't be answered in the abstract. Based on your description of what happened, it sounds like you would have been justified had you used your "defense spray." The concept of "retreat" doesn't really work when you're dealing with an animal.
  • 05-08-2020, 02:23 PM
    llworking
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Questions about the reasonableness require knowledge of all relevant facts and can't be answered in the abstract. Based on your description of what happened, it sounds like you would have been justified had you used your "defense spray." The concept of "retreat" doesn't really work when you're dealing with an animal.
    I don't really agree with the bolded. However, I can tell the difference between a friendly bark and a hostile bark.
  • 05-08-2020, 02:55 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    I don't really agree with the bolded. However, I can tell the difference between a friendly bark and a hostile bark.

    The OP felt they were hostile. That is pretty much enough.
  • 05-08-2020, 05:04 PM
    pg1067
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    I don't really agree with the bolded. However, I can tell the difference between a friendly bark and a hostile bark.

    Umm...ok, dog whisperer.
  • 05-09-2020, 07:33 AM
    llworking
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    The OP felt they were hostile. That is pretty much enough.

    They did not attack him, they only ran around him. OP basically admitted that he was somewhat hypersensitive to the overall issue. Look, I dislike the idea that someone should mace a dog that may never come closer than 10 feet to him. I also know that a dog who might never bite anyone ever, might bite someone if they were suddenly in serious pain. Its a defense mechanism. Therefore I would never advise someone to mace a dog that was still 10 ft away.
  • 05-09-2020, 08:56 AM
    Harold99
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    Personally? I would just not walk by that property again. If you mace or cane a dog who is barking but not attacking, you will likely make them more likely to bite you out of pain, fear and defense. I doubt that writing the owner a letter would change anything.

    I disagree because that is not how and when you use bear spray on a bear. You do not wait until the dog has you by the nuts.

    If mace is effective on bears, it would be effective on a dog. It is used proactively, not after the fact. Besides, If that dog learned that a person could hurt him badly from a distance, he'd think twice about charging people for fun anymore...and so would the owner.

    I would mace them if they got within my comfort zone and a cop would shoot them.
  • 05-09-2020, 10:36 AM
    Mark47n
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    I disagree because that is not how and when you use bear spray on a bear. You do not wait until the dog has you by the nuts.

    If mace is effective on bears, it would be effective on a dog. It is used proactively, not after the fact. Besides, If that dog learned that a person could hurt him badly from a distance, he'd think twice about charging people for fun anymore...and so would the owner.

    I would mace them if they got within my comfort zone and a cop would shoot them.

    Bear spray is only marginally effective against bears though I carry it in bear country.

    Mace and pepper spray is often effective against everyone in the vicinity including the sprayer and may also induce attack. It's hard to say but I'd call it, again, a last ditch effort.

    To be clear, this is definitely the case of poor husbandry by the owner, not the fault of the OP. That said, aggressive dogs attack, these dogs, for the incident description, did not attack. In fact one came close enough to touch the OPs hand with their nose. This is not aggressive behavior though it would take someone experienced in canine behavior to recognize that.

    So, to the point, you can write a letter, if it'll make you feel better, but nothing will come of it.

    You can contact Animal Control but, unless the dogs are roaming the streets biting others, nothing will come of it.

    You can take your walks with some sort of aerosol (key word) protective spray or bludgeoning instruments if it makes you feel better but, as noted above, aerosols may blow right back at you, may elicit a defensive response by the dog (they're not stupid like a hamster) and bludgeoning a dog is also a bad idea as it can also elicit an attack.

    You have no legal duty to retreat before a dog, true, but common sense would dictate, to me, that I should be cautious about any animal that has pointy teeth, is a predator, is fat and vastly stronger than you think. Dogs are no joke, as an animal, despite having been domesticated thousands of years ago. If you land that first blow you better make it count because you may find the next opportunity they are far inside your guard and maybe attached to you. Even if you're not legally liable you will still be the one to suffer the wounds and serious dog bites suck, I know.

    I'm sorry this happened to you. As an ardent and passionate dog person (I have two, an old lab and a 5 month old pitbull who is demolishing a rubber 'indestructible' chew toy at this moment at my feet as her adult teeth come in) it makes me angry to hear of such stories. There are many that don't realize that the laws about controlling your dogs, with a combination of fences, leashes, verbal commands et al, is about protecting others form your dog, that the dog derives protection from it is beside the point. This type of scofflaw behavior also impacts my dogs, my neighbors dogs and how all other gods and their owners are perceived. I hate hearing, from the owner of an off leash dogs "don't worry! He/she doesn't bite!" followed by complete unconcern or hurry to come and fetch their animal. Perhaps I bite, more, more likely, my dog bites. Perhaps I'm deathly afraid of dogs. It's such a selfish act that I've publicly upbraided people for it on the street.

    By the way, thank you for not wanting to hurt the dogs. They don't deserve it, generally. If you must, Mace the owner. That

    That last bit was not legal advice. I am not an attorney, I'm an electrician that has a notably bad attitude when faced with stupid.
  • 05-09-2020, 10:44 AM
    budwad
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    And if you mace or batter a dog that is not actually acting you and ends up needing medical treatment, you can expect to be sued for veterinarian bills.
  • 05-09-2020, 10:54 AM
    Harold99
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting budwad
    View Post
    And if you mace or batter a dog that is not actually acting you and ends up needing medical treatment, you can expect to be sued for veterinarian bills.

    I'd take vet bills over ER bills any day...but that is after he wins in court, which would be hard to do.
  • 05-09-2020, 11:19 AM
    Mark47n
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    I'd take vet bills over ER bills any day...but that is after he wins in court, which would be hard to do.

    TO stick to the example provided by the OP, there was no attack and to strike on dog is to attack the whole pack. To jump right to physical assault is foolish without considering the ramifications. Simply because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that it would be prudent to enforce it at that moment.
  • 05-09-2020, 11:59 AM
    Harold99
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    TO stick to the example provided by the OP, there was no attack and to strike on dog is to attack the whole pack. To jump right to physical assault is foolish without considering the ramifications. Simply because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that it would be prudent to enforce it at that moment.

    A volatile situation like that would have to be witnessed to determine whether spray should be used or not. I am not saying I'd spray those dogs.

    As for inciting an attack by spraying them, I beg to differ. Those dogs know who the 'alpha' is and they follow its lead. When the alpha attacks, the others will gain the confidence to follow that lead. OTOH, if you can determine which is the 'alpha' and you take that one out, the others will likely be dissuaded from attacking. Dogs are pack animals as in followers. Bears are not. They do not follow anyone's lead and have built-in confidence.

    Even lions have this figured out, kill the alpha hyena first.

    I am a dog owner and lover just like you, but I wouldn't hesitate to spray an aggressive acting dog if it got too close.
  • 05-09-2020, 12:13 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quoting the OP...

    Quote:

    A group of medium-sized dogs came running towards me off of someone's property. The dogs came into the public roadway, circled around me, barking.
    There is no way in this situation that the OP would not have been justified in the use of pepper spray on the dogs. One unknown dog running at you barking would 99 time out of 100 be justified.
  • 05-09-2020, 12:26 PM
    Harold99
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post

    There is no way in this situation that the OP would not have been justified in the use of pepper spray on the dogs. One unknown dog running at you barking would 99 time out of 100 be justified.

    You weren't there and did not witness it. What happened to the common phrase "we need more information?"

    But, please explain how one dog is more of a thread than a pack of dogs...to the average person?
  • 05-10-2020, 11:04 AM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    You weren't there and did not witness it. What happened to the common phrase "we need more information?"

    But, please explain how one dog is more of a thread than a pack of dogs...to the average person?

    I said, "in this situation." That means I was taking the OP's word for what happened.

    Reread, I didn't write that.
  • 05-10-2020, 01:42 PM
    gardening123
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Hi everyone, thanks for all of your thoughts and insight on this. I have also been doing some additional research into PA dog laws, and dog behavior in general.

    Its unfortunate that it occurred, to be sure. I've decided not to walk past that house for a while, which is a shame as its a nice area to walk in. Its a further shame because the only reason I'm avoiding it now is due to the fact that I don't want to encounter the dogs again and possibly be forced to act in a defensive way.

    I have subsequently purchased a canister of UDAP bear spray, the large and powerful bottle. I sometimes walk on the Appalachian trail and in other more remote locations and after this incident, I don't want to be in a situation where I am not prepared should the dog (or whatever animal), be more aggressive. The ethics/legality of deploying a spray is confusing. Several of you felt it might have been warranted, several thought it wouldn't have been. What is the standard...that the dog has to be lunging at you attempting to tear into your arm or leg before you can spray? That seems crazy. I also think spraying at a barking animal that's more than 6-8 feet away from you is off as well. Closer than five feet, and seeming it will get closer... maybe more justified? I suppose like many things there is a gray area. I hope I'm not in that situation again.

    As far as the letter idea I mentioned, I was thinking of mailing a certified mail letter outlining the incident in bullet points, i.e. "on such as such day at such and such time XYZ occurred involving your dogs", and also sending them a copy of the PA Dog Law fact sheet. I don't want to involve law enforcement at this point.
  • 05-10-2020, 01:59 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post
    As far as the letter idea I mentioned, I was thinking of mailing a certified mail letter outlining the incident in bullet points, i.e. "on such as such day at such and such time XYZ occurred involving your dogs", and also sending them a copy of the PA Dog Law fact sheet. I don't want to involve law enforcement at this point.

    In you post you said the owners were 20-30 yards away. They don't need your description of the events.
  • 05-10-2020, 02:03 PM
    gardening123
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    In you post you said the owners were 20-30 yards away. They don't need your description of the events.

    Maybe not, but I'd like to let them know that a) I am cognizant of the State's dog laws and b) that I felt the way their animals acted was in violation of them.
  • 05-11-2020, 07:22 AM
    llworking
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting gardening123
    View Post
    Hi everyone, thanks for all of your thoughts and insight on this. I have also been doing some additional research into PA dog laws, and dog behavior in general.

    Its unfortunate that it occurred, to be sure. I've decided not to walk past that house for a while, which is a shame as its a nice area to walk in. Its a further shame because the only reason I'm avoiding it now is due to the fact that I don't want to encounter the dogs again and possibly be forced to act in a defensive way.

    I have subsequently purchased a canister of UDAP bear spray, the large and powerful bottle. I sometimes walk on the Appalachian trail and in other more remote locations and after this incident, I don't want to be in a situation where I am not prepared should the dog (or whatever animal), be more aggressive. The ethics/legality of deploying a spray is confusing. Several of you felt it might have been warranted, several thought it wouldn't have been. What is the standard...that the dog has to be lunging at you attempting to tear into your arm or leg before you can spray? That seems crazy. I also think spraying at a barking animal that's more than 6-8 feet away from you is off as well. Closer than five feet, and seeming it will get closer... maybe more justified? I suppose like many things there is a gray area. I hope I'm not in that situation again.

    As far as the letter idea I mentioned, I was thinking of mailing a certified mail letter outlining the incident in bullet points, i.e. "on such as such day at such and such time XYZ occurred involving your dogs", and also sending them a copy of the PA Dog Law fact sheet. I don't want to involve law enforcement at this point.

    My objection to the use of the pepper spray was the suggestion that you start spraying when the dog was 10 feet away. Closer than that with a dog that appears aggressive rather than playful would be justified. Your description of what happened with those dogs appeared playful rather than aggressive to me.

    Also, I would talk to a vet about spraying a dog with bear spray. Something intended for a bear might possibly be too dangerous to use on a dog.
  • 05-11-2020, 12:11 PM
    gardening123
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    My objection to the use of the pepper spray was the suggestion that you start spraying when the dog was 10 feet away. Closer than that with a dog that appears aggressive rather than playful would be justified. Your description of what happened with those dogs appeared playful rather than aggressive to me.

    Also, I would talk to a vet about spraying a dog with bear spray. Something intended for a bear might possibly be too dangerous to use on a dog.

    Hard for me to see how 4-5 good-sized dogs circling around and in front of you, unrestrained and barking, would be considered "playful", but...

    Bear spray is something I have thought about in the past, but this incident has made me think again about assuming something animal-related "wouldn't/couldn't happen to me." There was a record bear harvest in PA in 2019, 4,653 black bears taken legally in hunts. About 80 of those were from my county alone. I walk in urban areas and I walk in remote areas near streams and rivers and on trails like the AT. Any number of potentially dangerous animals could be encountered.

    I would consult with a vet on the bear spray, but only to confirm that it would be effective to stop a dog. If there is no duty to retreat from any attacking animal and I genuinely feared for my life in light of what I know now, why should a person be bothered if the spray is "too dangerous"? I would only care if it works to keep me and anyone with me safe from unprovoked bodily harm from bears, dogs, coyotes, mountain lions etc.

    https://www.pennlive.com/life/2020/0...t-of-2019.html
  • 05-11-2020, 12:35 PM
    Mark47n
    Re: Approached by Group of Barking Dogs on Public Roadway - Options
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    My objection to the use of the pepper spray was the suggestion that you start spraying when the dog was 10 feet away. Closer than that with a dog that appears aggressive rather than playful would be justified. Your description of what happened with those dogs appeared playful rather than aggressive to me.

    Also, I would talk to a vet about spraying a dog with bear spray. Something intended for a bear might possibly be too dangerous to use on a dog.

    Well, I can answer the danger component...

    I have a friend up in Alberta who I met while hiking the West Coast Trail on the west coast of Vancouver Island, a wild, difficult, and extremely popular trail. This trail takes 5-7 days for most due to the obstacles and is deep in bear county, among other large predatory wildlife.

    One night while talking around the fire Chris and his wife, my friend, were telling us about the time he bear sprayed himself. He was converting a storage room in their house into a nursery. This room was where he stored the outdoor gear and the like. He accidentally knocked a can of bear spray off the shelf and it discharge the whole thing into the room. It led to him crying and blowing snot everywhere while standing in a tub of neutralizing agent (I don't recall what it was) in his underwear in his front yard being decontaminated by paramedics. The sheetrock and carpet in the room had to be replaced.

    The moral of the story is that Chris was, at the end, okay. He suffered mightily for awhile but came out with a story that had me and Perone else around the fire laughing so hard that some of us fell off of the logs we were sitting on.

    Since spraying a dog would not happen in a confined area my guess is that there would not be any long term damage. Also, bear spray canisters have a range of about 30-50 feet, depending on the manufacturer, since you really don't want to wait until the bear is that close. Also, with bears, it's recommended that you wait until they adopt an aggressive posture prior to deploying the spray lest you upset them. Bear spray, as I've noted before, is not a 100% deterrent. It's also wind dependent. In other words you may spray yourself and Chris says that really, really hurts.

    You should confirm that you are permitted to carry bear spray in your area. Not all municipalities permit it or other sprays.
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.4
Copyright © 2023 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2004 - 2018 ExpertLaw.com, All Rights Reserved