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Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible

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  • 04-13-2020, 05:36 PM
    weeblebiker
    Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of: Indiana

    I cosigned a year lease for my daughter and her boyfriend that ended in January. All three names were on the lease
    At the end of January I notified the property manager via text I was no longer responsible for rent. My daughter and boyfreind continued to live there month to month. Now my daughter and her boyfriend are not able to pay rent and the landlord is trying to say I am responsible for it.

    I gave notice at the end of the lease term I was no longer liable (I have the text).
    I don't live there.
    The property manager did not get the "tenants" to sign a new lease. my impression is he isn't a good manager (lazy).
    Does he have cause or can I tell him to pound sand?
  • 04-13-2020, 06:10 PM
    pg1067
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    I cosigned a year lease for my daughter and her boyfriend that ended in January. All three names were on the lease

    I'm curious why you made separate mention of you co-signing and all three names being "on the lease." Was that intentional? If you co-signed, then it goes without saying that your name would be "on the lease, so I'm curious if you're ascribing some other significance to one or the other of these things.


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    At the end of January I notified the property manager via text I was no longer responsible for rent.

    What made you believe you could terminate your liability by sending a text message? When did you send the text?


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    Now my daughter and her boyfriend are not able to pay rent and the landlord is trying to say I am responsible for it.

    What does "trying to say" mean? Did you simply mean that the landlord is saying this? When did your daughter and her boyfriend stop paying rent?


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    Does he have cause or can I tell him to pound sand?

    You can tell him anything you like. Whether you're on the hook depends on how you answer the questions I asked and on the terms of the lease.
  • 04-13-2020, 06:28 PM
    weeblebiker
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    1. to ensure clearly all three names were on the lease, not just mine, not just my daughter and I.
    2. I gave the property manager notice and have evidence,,,,,at the end of January.
    3. He is trying to say, he has implied my credit could be affected, he has not taken me to small claims court. They stopped paying rent after the lease term ended in January all payments were made during the lease period, property manager says says they are two months behind now so they paid February and not March and April which would be after the end of the lease period.
    4. I know a can say anything I want, I'd like some confirmation before involving a local attorney. which at this time is kinda difficult to do with the current corona virus distance rules, hense the post instead of popping into local office for a half hr consult.
  • 04-13-2020, 07:27 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Residential leases tend to have provisions continuing the expired lease on a month to month basis AT THE SAME TERMS as expiring. You'll have to read the lease to see if that's what it says. If it says that, then you continue to be a guarantor for as long as your daughter and the bf occupy the rental.

    You saying otherwise does not absolve you of the obligation.

    Read the lease, what does it say about expiration? Quote it word for word. And what does it say about your obligations as co-signer?
  • 04-13-2020, 09:23 PM
    weeblebiker
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    so by the same rational a roomate that moves out at the end of a lease is responsible for the lease if the other room mate stays and doesn't pay rent?
    lease ends, I give notice of not continuing with the contract, the property manager does not negotiate with the remaining tenants, how am I more responsible than a roomate that moved out in the same situation? besides my pockets being deeper?
  • 04-13-2020, 09:33 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    so by the same rational a roomate that moves out at the end of a lease is responsible for the lease if the other room mate stays and doesn't pay rent?
    Yes. That's exactly what could happen and often does with roommate situations because the tenants are jointly and severally liable for the terms of the contract until all occupants satisfactorily surrender the rental to the owner.

    Quote:

    lease ends, I give notice of not continuing with the contract, the property manager does not negotiate with the remaining tenants, how am I more responsible than a roomate that moved out in the same situation? besides my pockets being deeper?
    The whole idea of requiring a co-signer is that the co-signer's pockets ARE deeper and his/her credit better than those for whom he is a guarantor.

    Perhaps you didn't understand what you were guaranteeing when you signed the lease. It's simple. You guaranteed to pay if the tenants didn't.

    By the way, you haven't answered the questions about the terms of the lease.
  • 04-14-2020, 09:15 AM
    pg1067
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    2. I gave the property manager notice and have evidence,,,,,at the end of January.

    You didn't answer the question I asked about what made you believe you could terminate your liability by sending a text message.


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    3. He is trying to say, he has implied my credit could be affected, he has not taken me to small claims court.

    That doesn't explain what "trying to say." If someone is saying something, that's easily understood. "Trying to say" implies an attempt to say something that wasn't successful. For example: "Jane tried to speak, but she just couldn't form the works, so she just stood there with her mouth open but no sound coming out." Unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume that you meant he did say these things.


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    They stopped paying rent after the lease term ended in January

    Any idea why the landlord didn't start eviction proceedings in February?


    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    4. I know a can say anything I want, I'd like some confirmation before involving a local attorney. which at this time is kinda difficult to do with the current corona virus distance rules, hense the post instead of popping into local office for a half hr consult.

    I don't know of any attorneys that offer "pop in" consultations. However, much as you're not going to get an in-person consultation right now, neither is the landlord going to be able to pursue eviction. If you explain what made you believe a text message was sufficient to terminate your liability, tell us what the text message said, and tell us about any relevant provisions in the lease, then we may be able to provide some information you can use.

    Quote:

    Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    Residential leases tend to have provisions continuing the expired lease on a month to month basis AT THE SAME TERMS as expiring. You'll have to read the lease to see if that's what it says. If it says that, then you continue to be a guarantor for as long as your daughter and the bf occupy the rental.

    That's not necessarily correct, but I want more information from the OP before saying more on the subject.
  • 04-14-2020, 10:32 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    There's no state wide referral system in Indiana, but many of the local bar associations (county/city) do have such programs which may provide a limited initial consultation. Expect to not get much out of this without signing on to formal representation.

    You're bound by the lease you signed. If the lease provides for holdover or renewal, you're still bound to that. The only way out is to provide the proper notice and to have everyone VACATE the premises or get the landlord consent to releasing just you. In writing, by and large, means on paper or a reasonable approximation. Texts, phone messages, etc.. are not written notice. Even if you had sent a proper written notice, it likely would have little meaning if the other lessees didn't also give notice and move.
  • 04-14-2020, 12:50 PM
    latigo
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of: Indiana

    I cosigned a year lease for my daughter and her boyfriend that ended in January. All three names were on the lease
    At the end of January I notified the property manager via text I was no longer responsible for rent. My daughter and boyfreind continued to live there month to month. Now my daughter and her boyfriend are not able to pay rent and the landlord is trying to say I am responsible for it.

    I gave notice at the end of the lease term I was no longer liable (I have the text).
    I don't live there.
    The property manager did not get the "tenants" to sign a new lease. my impression is he isn't a good manager (lazy).
    Does he have cause or can I tell him to pound sand?

    Being cognizant that substance always prevails over form I would say this:

    If it is true that, (a) you've never paid any rent called for by the use of the premises, (b) you've never occupied the rental unit, and (c) the landlord has never made any demands upon you prior to the current episode - then notwithstanding any anticipatory language in the lease respecting terms and conditions in the event of a holding over . . .

    in my opinion your liability is strictly that of a surety and not a co-tenant and ended at the conclusion of the stated term of the written lease.

    In other words, if we accept the argument that your signature to the lease was intended as a surety and not as a co-tenant (again form must yield to substance) then it necessary follows that you should not be bound by the independent action of the tenant/occupants following the end of term stated in the written lease. Furthermore, it takes two to tango. Meaning that the landlord cannot unilaterally extend your guarantee.
    ____

    What can/should you do?

    First of all don't bow to the landlord's demands! Doing so would be an admission of liability. Better to let the landlord take action evicting the occupants and/or unlawful detainer.

    Secondly, if push comes to shove either initiate an action for a declaratory judgment decreeing your responsibilities as solely coextensive with the stated term of the written lease, or if sued by the landlord, file such via a defense/counter claim.

    Good luck and please keep us posted.
  • 04-14-2020, 03:56 PM
    Mercy&Grace
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Why aren't they paying the rent ?
  • 04-14-2020, 09:23 PM
    latigo
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    What frigging difference does it make as to why the occupants are not paying rent?

    The topic is whether or not the OP is liable for any rent accruing after the end of the written term. Do you have any comments with respect to that issue or are you going to ask another inane question like how old are the tenants or what color of car to they drive... Jeez!
  • 04-14-2020, 09:50 PM
    bcr229
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    The property manager did not get the "tenants" to sign a new lease. my impression is he isn't a good manager (lazy).

    That's not his job. If you wanted out of the lease then it was your responsibility to get your daughter and her boyfriend to all give proper written notice to terminate the lease when it terminated at the end of January. After that your daughter and her boyfriend could have signed a new lease if they qualified for it, or they could have found somewhere else to live.

    Quote:

    Does he have cause or can I tell him to pound sand?
    Once the courts open back up expect an eviction to get filed for the three of you if he has not been paid.
  • 04-15-2020, 03:43 PM
    latigo
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting bcr229
    View Post
    That's not his job. If you wanted out of the lease then it was your responsibility to get your daughter and her boyfriend to all give proper written notice to terminate the lease when it terminated at the end of January. . . .

    Curiously how did you arrive at your circuitous concept that a lease that terminates by its own language (here in January) only terminates in January if the occupants "give proper written notice to terminate the lease" in January?

    Are you saying that a written lease agreement cannot be self-acting with respect to the agreed period of occupation? And should the lessee fail to give notice to terminate the lease at the end of its stated term that the lease continues in perpetuity? If not, then what are you trying to say?

    Also why, if not in the capacity as a surety rather than as a co-tenant, do you single out the OP as having the responsibility of getting the daughter and her boyfriend to give proper written notice, etc., etc.?

    It seems that the legal issue here has escaped your notice and likely your comprehension.
  • 04-15-2020, 04:41 PM
    pg1067
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting bcr229
    View Post
    Quote:

    Quoting weeblebiker
    View Post
    The property manager did not get the "tenants" to sign a new lease. my impression is he isn't a good manager (lazy).

    That's not his job.

    What's "not his job"? It certainly is the job of a property manager to manage the property, and managing rental property includes the securing of new and renewal leases. That said, the OP's inference that it is necessarily "lazy" for a property manager not to secure "a new lease" when a current tenant's lease expires is erroneous.


    Quote:

    Quoting bcr229
    View Post
    If you wanted out of the lease then it was your responsibility to get your daughter and her boyfriend to all give proper written notice to terminate the lease when it terminated at the end of January.

    That's not necessarily true. For starters, what would make you think that the OP's daughter and her boyfriend were required to give any "written notice to terminate" the lease? I and others asked questions about the content of the lease, but the OP hasn't seen fit to answer those questions. Do you have access to the lease in question such that you know its terms? Additionally, why do you think that Indiana law or the terms of the lease would not allow the OP, as a guarantor (which he hasn't confirmed is all that he is), to terminate the guarantee on a going forward basis by giving notice to the landlord?
  • 04-15-2020, 04:58 PM
    bcr229
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting latigo
    View Post
    Curiously how did you arrive at your circuitous concept that a lease that terminates by its own language (here in January) only terminates in January if the occupants "give proper written notice to terminate the lease" in January?

    Are you saying that a written lease agreement cannot be self-acting with respect to the agreed period of occupation? And should the lessee fail to give notice to terminate the lease at the end of its stated term that the lease continues in perpetuity? If not, then what are you trying to say?

    Also why, if not in the capacity as a surety rather than as a co-tenant, do you single out the OP as having the responsibility of getting the daughter and her boyfriend to give proper written notice, etc., etc.?

    It seems that the legal issue here has escaped your notice and likely your comprehension.

    No, I am saying that it's very likely that the OP did not receive a written notice from the landlord that the tenancy would be terminated at the end of January; if she had then there would have no need for her to notify the landlord that she wanted out. So, the lease went month to month as most leases do. I deduced that per OP's post #5 that all three names were on the lease as tenants, and sending a text to the landlord isn't going to terminate her obligation as a tenant.

    It's also not the landlord's job to chase down the deadbeat daughter and boyfriend to get them to sign a new lease, or even to amend the original lease by removing the OP as a tenant, especially now that he knows the other two can't or won't pay. He has a lease with OP's name on it in-hand and as the OP pointed out, OP's the one with deep pockets.
  • 04-16-2020, 04:05 PM
    latigo
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting bcr229
    View Post
    No, I am saying that it's very likely that the OP did not receive a written notice from the landlord that the tenancy would be terminated at the end of January; if she had then there would have no need for her to notify the landlord that she wanted out. So, the lease went month to month as most leases do. I deduced that per OP's post #5 that all three names were on the lease as tenants, and sending a text to the landlord isn't going to terminate her obligation as a tenant. . . . . . .

    Why do you continue to treat with these issues under the absurd premise that a fixed term lease - one having a beginning and an end - continues in perpetuity unless one party or another gives "written notice" of its termination. What don't you comprehend about a "self-acting" proviso in an agreement - one that is automatic and not influenced by an external force?

    Now as to your misconstrued observation that "the lease went month-to- month". Sorry but again you are dead wrong. The written fixed term lease DID NOT "went month-to-month"! It expired in January. It was the continued use and occupation of the rental unit following the expiration of the written fixed term lease that "went month-to-month"! In short the written fixed term lease no longer exists. At least not with respect to the period of occupancy by the two tenants.

    Now as to your assumption that the OP is a co-tenant simply because all three signed the written fixed term lease. Here you are begging the very question. That question IMO is whether his status was that of a surety or merely a co-tenant. But my argument is that it's of a little moment because . . .

    If his status is that of a surety or guarantor assuring to the landlord the faithful performance of the lease by the principals (daughter and boyfriend), then not only did his guarantee end with the end of the written lease, but the creation of the month-to-month tenancy constituted a "novation", meaning the entering into of a fresh agreement between the landlord and the two occupants and thus as a matter of law discharging the OP of any continuing suretyship responsibility to the landlord. Moreover any extension of the term of the written lease without the OP's consent would discharge any suretyship guarantee.

    To reiterate, in my opinion the month-to-month tenancy (or tenancy at will) created by the two occupants "holding over" with the consent of the landlord or his acquiescence constituted an entirely new and separate agreement between the occupants and the property owner. Since the OP has never been an occupant of the rental how can it reasonably be said that he is liable for rent accruing under this new form of a tenancy?

    I'm not saying that a counter argument can be dismissed out of hand, but certainly not one of your questionable caliber.
  • 04-17-2020, 07:06 AM
    bcr229
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    OP is certainly free to present your argument at the eviction hearing, but I would strongly advise that he have enough cash set aside to pay for the months of unpaid rent, late fees, court costs, etc. if the judge doesn't buy it.
  • 04-17-2020, 08:47 AM
    llworking
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting latigo
    View Post
    Why do you continue to treat with these issues under the absurd premise that a fixed term lease - one having a beginning and an end - continues in perpetuity unless one party or another gives "written notice" of its termination. What don't you comprehend about a "self-acting" proviso in an agreement - one that is automatic and not influenced by an external force?

    Now as to your misconstrued observation that "the lease went month-to- month". Sorry but again you are dead wrong. The written fixed term lease DID NOT "went month-to-month"! It expired in January. It was the continued use and occupation of the rental unit following the expiration of the written fixed term lease that "went month-to-month"! In short the written fixed term lease no longer exists. At least not with respect to the period of occupancy by the two tenants.

    Now as to your assumption that the OP is a co-tenant simply because all three signed the written fixed term lease. Here you are begging the very question. That question IMO is whether his status was that of a surety or merely a co-tenant. But my argument is that it's of a little moment because . . .

    If his status is that of a surety or guarantor assuring to the landlord the faithful performance of the lease by the principals (daughter and boyfriend), then not only did his guarantee end with the end of the written lease, but the creation of the month-to-month tenancy constituted a "novation", meaning the entering into of a fresh agreement between the landlord and the two occupants and thus as a matter of law discharging the OP of any continuing suretyship responsibility to the landlord. Moreover any extension of the term of the written lease without the OP's consent would discharge any suretyship guarantee.

    To reiterate, in my opinion the month-to-month tenancy (or tenancy at will) created by the two occupants "holding over" with the consent of the landlord or his acquiescence constituted an entirely new and separate agreement between the occupants and the property owner. Since the OP has never been an occupant of the rental how can it reasonably be said that he is liable for rent accruing under this new form of a tenancy?

    I'm not saying that a counter argument can be dismissed out of hand, but certainly not one of your questionable caliber.

    Most residential leases, at least in Indiana, specifically state within the least that at the end of the lease period it becomes a month to month lease unless the tenant or landlord gives notice to terminate. That is honestly the norm.

    Yes, its certainly possible that a lease could have a "self acting" proviso but it would be a bit unusual in Indiana.
  • 04-17-2020, 12:23 PM
    latigo
    Re: Cosigned Lease for Daughter + Boyfreind That Expired in January Am I Responsible
    Quote:

    Quoting llworking
    View Post
    Most residential leases, at least in Indiana, specifically state within the least that at the end of the lease period it becomes a month to month lease unless the tenant or landlord gives notice to terminate. That is honestly the norm. . . .

    Pardon me, but that is incorrect! What is honestly the norm in a standard or commonly used "Indiana Residential Lease" * is as follows:

    "13. NOTICE TO QUIT AND HOLDOVER.

    A. NOTICE. At least 30 days prior to the end of the Agreement Term, Tenant shall provide Landlord with written notice of Tenant’s intention to move out by the end of the Agreement Term. If Tenant fails to provide such written notice, [U]the tenancy shall be month-to-month after the Agreement Term[U], and all other terms of this Agreement shall continue in full force and effect. "
    (Emphasis added)

    You will also please note that the stipulations pertaining to giving notice of termination only apply if the fixed term lease is transmuted to a month-to-month tenancy by reason of the tenant holding over. (See: Subparagraph B of the "norm") And please note that the month-to-month tenancy comes into being only AFTER the Agreement Term.

    Again, neither party is obligated to notify the other that the end the "Agreement Term" has arrived or is about to arrive. Hence, unless the tenant opts to holds over, the lease automatically expires at the conclusion of the Agreed Term! AND the written agreement does not need a proviso stating that it expires and the end of the Agreed Term. That would be redundant. (Like living and dying in L.A. ) **
    __________________________

    [*] https://www.leaserunner.com/assets/p...nt-indiana.pdf

    [**] Apologies to The Truman Capote Estate.
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