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Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads

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  • 04-09-2020, 12:27 AM
    Lizard
    Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    I am having a difficult time finding information about this in California's CVC.

    Although I have only received a warning and not an actual citation, I am looking for clarity on this. Multiple law enforcement officers have admonished me for parking in a turnout on the side of a two lane state highway or other rural roadway. I asked one for clarification on this and was told the car could park in a turnout, but had to be more than a given amount of feet from the white line which marks the edge of the lane. This officer did not know what the amount of feet was - if it was 5 feet, 10 feet, 20 feet or something else. My understanding of this was if there is a turnout which is wider than a typical shoulder and there is not a no parking or no stopping sign posted - within a given amount of distance (see first question below) - then it is perfectly legal to park there. Is someone here able to clarify this?

    Also:
    1) If a no parking sign is posted, how far in front of and how far behind is it illegal to park? Is this distance different for a no parking sign than for a no stopping sign?

    2) What exactly is the difference between 'no stopping' and 'no parking'. Obviously if one is stopped with the motor running and sitting in the driver's seat, he/she would be in violation of a 'no stopping' sign. This suggests the motorist wouldn't be in violation of a 'no parking' sign. But to what degree would the motorist have to shut down his/her vehicle and/or get out of the vehicle for them to be in violation of a 'no parking' sign?
  • 04-09-2020, 06:49 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    The only law that would remotely apply here is that you can't park on the highway where it impedes traffic. That's a rather subjective thing, but to me if you are clear of the thru lane and there's no other vehicle in the turnout, you're not obstructing anything. There certainly is no "feet from the white line" law. It's subjective.
  • 04-09-2020, 08:34 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    What exactly is the difference between 'no stopping' and 'no parking'
    California Vehicle Code Division 1 - Words and Phrases Defined:

    Quote:

    463. “Park or parking” shall mean the standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, otherwise than temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or passengers.

    587. “Stop or stopping” when prohibited shall mean any cessation of movement of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the direction of a police officer or official traffic control device or signal.
    Clears it up for me.

    Quote:

    If a no parking sign is posted, how far in front of and how far behind is it illegal to park?
    Depends on how the sign is worded. If it just says "No Parking" common sense tells me from corner to corner and I wouldn't park. Others may have a different interpretation and get the opportunity to explain their interpretation in court.

    Quote:

    Multiple law enforcement officers have admonished me for parking in a turnout on the side of a two lane state highway or other rural roadway.
    Then stop doing it.

    Quote:

    "My understanding"
    = "I don't know."
  • 04-09-2020, 10:53 AM
    Lizard
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    California Vehicle Code Division 1 - Words and Phrases Defined:
    Clears it up for me.

    Thanks for clarifying the difference between 'no parking' and 'no stopping'.

    Quote:

    'Depends on how the sign is worded. If it just says "No Parking" common sense tells me from corner to corner and I wouldn't park. Others may have a different interpretation and get the opportunity to explain their interpretation in court.'
    The idea is to avoid at minimum even having to go to court. As having to go to court is a 'penalty' - even if found not guilty.
    I'm guessing the distance must be listed somewhere.

    Quote:

    Then stop doing it.
    In each case, there was nothing to indicate where I was parking was illegal. E.g. Not a close no parking or no stopping sign; and a very wide turnout.
  • 04-09-2020, 11:29 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Lizard
    View Post

    In each case, there was nothing to indicate where I was parking was illegal. E.g. Not a close no parking or no stopping sign; and a very wide turnout.

    Please provide an aerial view of the location on google maps. Best way to get a helpful comment.

    Might also explain why you need to park there.
  • 04-09-2020, 07:49 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Are you actually PARKING there? Or, are you STOPPED there? In other words, are you pulling over in the turnout and leaving your car to hike, walk, or otherwise disappear from the vehicle?

    Is this turnout on a numbered state or US freeway?

    I agree with adjusterjack - a Google map link to the location might help.

    In general, a "turnout" is to be used only to allow vehicles to pass. But, also consider this, the turnout is part of the "highway" and, if when you park and leave your vehicle, it obstructs that turnout in any way or presents an articulable hazard (which can be subjective), it could be towed pursuant to CVC 22651(b).
  • 04-10-2020, 08:46 AM
    Harold99
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    In general, a "turnout" is to be used only to allow vehicles to pass.

    I have never heard that before. Passing signs are used all down the highway. I never seen a sign indicating a turn-out is to allow for passing. Have you? Is what you are saying in the CVC? And, if there are signs that say "slower traffic use turnouts," (likely on a steep incline) does the absence of that sign mean all turnouts are for passing as well?

    Quote:

    But, also consider this, the turnout is part of the "highway" and, if when you park and leave your vehicle, it obstructs that turnout in any way or presents an articulable hazard (which can be subjective), it could be towed pursuant to CVC 22651(b).
    Legal stopping and parking areas, which can be turnouts, are also part of the highway. Since turnouts do not have lanes or marked parking stalls, and a car in a turnout is out of lanes of through traffic, how can he be obstructing traffic? It would be like stopping in an open field and being charged with blocking traffic.

    To be specific and not "general," please tell what the purpose and prohibitions are of the turnouts on Hwy 14 between Santa Clarita and Lancaster, CA? I have driven that Hwy my whole life and witnessed motorists use those turnouts for whatever they wish...park and hike, stretch their legs, eat lunch, urinate, etc, and I have never seen a CHP ever interact with them. Heck, I even see big rig truckers sleeping in trun-outs all the way up the 395 to Mammoth and Tahoe.

    You seem to be saying that there is no difference between stopping or parking in the emergency lane and stopping or parking in a turnout, when in my experience, there is.
  • 04-10-2020, 02:25 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    I have never heard that before. Passing signs are used all down the highway. I never seen a sign indicating a turn-out is to allow for passing. Have you? Is what you are saying in the CVC? And, if there are signs that say "slower traffic use turnouts," (likely on a steep incline) does the absence of that sign mean all turnouts are for passing as well?

    What else would they be for? Turnouts are specifically designated in the vehicle code for slower traffic to pull off and allow passing. In fact, I believe 21656VC may be the only the only place in the code they're mentioned.

    Quote:

    Legal stopping and parking areas, which can be turnouts, are also part of the highway. Since turnouts do not have lanes or marked parking stalls, and a car in a turnout is out of lanes of through traffic, how can he be obstructing traffic? It would be like stopping in an open field and being charged with blocking traffic.
    If it blocks a vehicle from making use of the turnout, one could say that it is. Unlike your hypothetical field, the turnout is part of the highway by official definition.

    Still it's a rather subjective stretch to claim that an attended car in an otherwise empty turnout that is well clear of traffic either on the main roadway or trying to exit the main roadway to enter the turn out is impeding traffic.
  • 04-10-2020, 07:54 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    I have never heard that before. Passing signs are used all down the highway. I never seen a sign indicating a turn-out is to allow for passing. Have you? Is what you are saying in the CVC? And, if there are signs that say "slower traffic use turnouts," (likely on a steep incline) does the absence of that sign mean all turnouts are for passing as well?

    Turnouts are mentioned in only one section of the CVC:

    21656.
    On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, any vehicle proceeding upon the highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed.


    You see these a lot on mountain and country roads out here (like where I live).

    Quote:

    Legal stopping and parking areas, which can be turnouts, are also part of the highway. Since turnouts do not have lanes or marked parking stalls, and a car in a turnout is out of lanes of through traffic, how can he be obstructing traffic? It would be like stopping in an open field and being charged with blocking traffic.
    If it is not a marked "turnout" then it is a shoulder or simply off the roadway. Depending upon the position of the vehicle, stopping or parking off to the side MAY violate one or more sections of the CVC depending upon the facts and the details.

    Quote:

    To be specific and not "general," please tell what the purpose and prohibitions are of the turnouts on Hwy 14 between Santa Clarita and Lancaster, CA? I have driven that Hwy my whole life and witnessed motorists use those turnouts for whatever they wish...park and hike, stretch their legs, eat lunch, urinate, etc, and I have never seen a CHP ever interact with them. Heck, I even see big rig truckers sleeping in trun-outs all the way up the 395 to Mammoth and Tahoe.
    Don't know. Are they marked turnouts? Are people stopped in such a way as to obstruct vehicles intending to use them for their intended purpose of letting traffic pass? If those vehicles are parked and obstructing traffic on the highway utilizing the turnout, then such parking or stopping and standing may be unlawful.

    Quote:

    You seem to be saying that there is no difference between stopping or parking in the emergency lane and stopping or parking in a turnout, when in my experience, there is.
    Not saying that at all. It comes down to whether the vehicle is obstructing traffic in one way or another. And, keep in mind that the obstruction does not mean that it's hanging over the road. VC 22651(b) is open to some level of interpretation as to what constitutes a hazard.

    22651(b)
    If a vehicle is parked or left standing upon a highway in a position so as to obstruct the normal movement of traffic or in a condition so as to create a hazard to other traffic upon the highway.


    It can be obstructing traffic by jutting into the roadway, or providing a visibility obstruction to oncoming traffic around a mountain turn, or some other hazard that does not leap to my mind at the moment.

    A "turnout" is not specifically defined under the CVC and is only mentioned at all in 21656 cited above. Whether any action can be taken against a vehicle or operator of a vehicle stopped or parked in such a locale depends on other facts and not just their presence in such a lane.

    EDIT: And, yes, the "turnout" IS part of the "highway" as defined under the CVC.

    360
    “Highway” is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street.
  • 04-14-2020, 07:01 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    I need clarification. For purposes of this discussion, which of these are you people considering a "Turnout"?
    CA-41 or CA-46
  • 04-14-2020, 11:31 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Jim Kozlovich
    View Post
    I need clarification. For purposes of this discussion, which of these are you people considering a "Turnout"?
    CA-41 or CA-46

    You'll have to ask the OP. But, I'm guessing something like the CA 41 link since your CA 46 link doesn't appear to have a "Turnout" sign I can see. But, the CA 41 link seems to hold an image of a turnout sign followed by the delineation of the shoulder of the road. Not like the turnouts I often see.
  • 04-14-2020, 12:50 PM
    Harold99
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post

    In general, a "turnout" is to be used only to allow vehicles to pass.

    Any reasonable person would call example CA-46 a 'turnout' regardless of signage. How would a big rig use that to allow vehicles behind him to pass?
  • 04-14-2020, 12:56 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Any reasonable person would call example CA-46 a 'turnout' regardless of signage. How would a big rig use that to allow vehicles behind him to pass?

    Call it what you will, but as I said, the word "turnout" is mentioned only twice in the CVC and in only one section. The delineation in the CA-46 link would be more properly defined as a shoulder - which also lacks a clear definition in the CVC. So, absent additional restricting signage, you might be able to pull to the side and even park there.

    EDIT: Forgot the big rig part. The answer to that would likely be that the big rig would not be permitted to pull off the road onto the shoulder to permit anyone to pass. They'd likely have to wait for either a divided lane, or, a proper turnout of sufficient length and breadth. Many turnouts I see in the country are short and not typically designed to facilitate big rigs.

    Some of these issues are subjective, and almost all of them are CHP issues. How *I* might see them or choose to enforce them could be irrelevant, because turnouts and country roads/highways/freeways tend to be CHP enforcement issues and not for the municipal cops or deputies. I cannot say what their marching orders might be on such matters, and I do not come into contact with many CHP officers these days.
  • 04-14-2020, 01:13 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    I think the CA-46 one includes the gravel part beyond the road shoulder. There are certainly stuff on Route 20 with a similarly large, yet paved, area and signs that tell slower traffic to use the turn out.
  • 04-14-2020, 01:26 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    I think the CA-46 one includes the gravel part beyond the road shoulder. There are certainly stuff on Route 20 with a similarly large, yet paved, area and signs that tell slower traffic to use the turn out.

    Driving OFF the road adds a whole different set of potential legal issues to the mix. Since it is not marked as a "turnout", and it does not appear to specifically prohibit parking, if it is public property it can probably be used for yielding and even parking. A big rig might not want to use it, though ... you never know the nature of the soil off of the road.
  • 04-14-2020, 01:58 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    They were just examples someone ELSE posted in this thread. What if the one was a bigger PAVED one? In fact the one on SR20 shows trucks parked in it in the aerial (but not the street view). They do however seem to be far enough from the white line that another vehicle could use the turnout to allow people to pass.
  • 04-14-2020, 02:06 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    They were just examples someone ELSE posted in this thread. What if the one was a bigger PAVED one? In fact the one on SR20 shows trucks parked in it in the aerial (but not the street view). They do however seem to be far enough from the white line that another vehicle could use the turnout to allow people to pass.

    Whether one can lawfully parked off the road - paved or unpaved - depends upon the nature of the property (private or public) and any restrictions on use (signed or unsigned). In my town we have a number of open spaces that trucks use to park even though they are not supposed to. Enforcement is inconsistent since only a couple of those places are posted and the other require either a call from the property owner or Code Enforcement to get involved for violating ordinances.

    So, the only real answer to the question about whether or not someone can park in a particular place adjacent to the main roadway is, "It depends ..."
  • 04-14-2020, 03:00 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Parking in Turnouts on Two Lane Roads
    Quote:

    Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Any reasonable person would call example CA-46 a 'turnout' regardless of signage. How would a big rig use that to allow vehicles behind him to pass?

    CA-46 is NOT an example of a turnout. This is simply an unpaved (dirt) area for people to pull over and stop in order to check out the view. The turnout is in CA-41. The turnout is for the slower vehicle to pull into to allow the vehicles behind them to pass. The following link shows the sign about 100 feet before the "Turnout" sign in the CA-41 example.

    Slower Traffic Use Turnouts Sign.
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