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Religious Club in Public School

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  • 03-06-2020, 09:07 AM
    Peregrine
    Religious Club in Public School
    My question involves civil rights in the State of: Maine
    Hi, so I'm in a public high school and I'm part of a religious group. The school is only allowing us to meet after school. They do let other groups meet during the school day but I think the two I know of aren't student-led groups, mine is. Is this legal? Is there any case to allow us to meet during the day during study hall when I know at least two other groups are? I was thinking of the equal access clause but I don't know if that applies. If it helps to know if the groups during the day are student led or not I can try and find out.
    Thanks
  • 03-06-2020, 09:17 AM
    eerelations
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Are the other two groups religious groups as well? Our responses will depend on the answer to this question (among other things).
  • 03-06-2020, 09:31 AM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    If all student-led clubs are required to meet after school it is legal.

    The school/staff-led groups (that I assume have nothing to do with religion) are completely different.
  • 03-06-2020, 10:01 AM
    budwad
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    If all student-led clubs are required to meet after school it is legal.

    The school/staff-led groups (that I assume have nothing to do with religion) are completely different.

    Why?
  • 03-06-2020, 10:02 AM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting budwad
    View Post
    Why?

    Why, what?
  • 03-06-2020, 10:23 AM
    budwad
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    If all student-led clubs are required to meet after school it is legal.

    The school/staff-led groups (that I assume have nothing to do with religion) are completely different.

    Why are they completely different? What distinction are you trying to make? Student lead clubs usually have faculty advisors.
  • 03-06-2020, 10:28 AM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    They are different simply because they are organized by the state, in this case, the school itself. The fact that all clubs may have a faculty advisor doesn't come into play.

    A school is well within its' right to say school-sponsored clubs can meet during school hours and others aren't.
  • 03-06-2020, 02:22 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting Peregrine
    View Post
    My question involves civil rights in the State of: Maine
    I was thinking of the equal access clause but I don't know if that applies.


    There is no "equal access clause" in the federal Constitution but there is an equal protection clause. The federal courts have held that equal protection means that the government must generally treat similarly situated persons/groups the same and that the government must have a rational basis for making distinctions between most persons/groups, though a higher standard is applied if the distinction made is based on race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation. Furthermore, the First Amendment to the Constitution requires, among other things, that the government not give preference to one religion over another and that the government not interfere with a person's religious practices unless there is a compelling government interest at stake.

    A public school does not have to allow religious activities on its grounds. The First Amendment does not require that the government provide space or facilities for religious activity. But if the school allows persons of one religion to conduct religious activities on its grounds it must afford that same right to persons of other religions who wish to conduct religious activity there.

    So the details of your school's policies on this, including why the school will not allow you to meet during school hours, matters. Does the school have a written policy on this? If so, what does that policy say? It also matters what the details are of the groups that are allowed to meet during school hours. What kind of groups are they? If they are religious groups that may be a difficult problem for the school to say you can't do the same thing. If they aren't religious groups then the school is likely on firmer ground to deny your group time to meet during school hours. You also mentioned the possibility that the groups meeting during school hours are faculty led rather than student led groups. That too would be important as that would give the school a rational basis for making the decision it did. Other differences between your group and the other groups may be significant, too.
  • 03-06-2020, 04:26 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Many schools have now prohibited ALL non-academic groups from utilizing school facilities so as to avoid the issue of discrimination altogether. In general, if they allow one organization or club to meet they may have to allow all to meet. To avoid this, they often prohibit anything not school-related.
  • 03-06-2020, 08:18 PM
    RJR
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    TM, I think he is referring to the federal Equal Access Act.
  • 03-06-2020, 08:47 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting RJR
    View Post
    TM, I think he is referring to the federal Equal Access Act.

    You may be right. But the Equal Access Act might not provide much help to the OP in this instance. Under that Act a high school receiving federal funds and that allows a forum for groups to meet during noninstructional time is prohibited from denying any other group the same opportunity to meet during noninstructional time based on that group's "religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech". 20 U.S.C. § 4071(a). In short, once the school allows one group to meet after school hours it could not deny the same right to other groups to meet after school if that denial is based on the religious, political or other point of view of the group. So whether this Act is violated would again depend on the sort of details I asked about earlier. Note that the Act does not expressly provide any remedy whatsoever for the violation of the Act and expressly prohibits the federal government from withholding federal funds to schools who violate it. That would leave pretty much the only remedy here as being an injunction.
  • 03-06-2020, 11:41 PM
    Mercy&Grace
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    The links below are about kids that meet at the flag pole once a year to pray. This is done in some public schools before classes start. There are some schools that meet once a month. My youngest daughter was president of the group at her high school that met at the flag pole once a month to pray.


    https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/14025...yer-gatherings

    https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/it...-public-school

    https://syatp.com/
  • 03-06-2020, 11:47 PM
    RJR
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Those are very informative links Mercy, no doubt will help the OP with his facts.
  • 03-07-2020, 12:40 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting Mercy&Grace
    View Post
    The links below are about kids that meet at the flag pole once a year to pray. This is done in some public schools before classes start. There are some schools that meet once a month. My youngest daughter was president of the group at her high school that met at the flag pole once a month to pray.

    I am also familiar with the organization and this event as it happens every year at my local high schools as well. But, it's not generally considered a school club or organization as it tends to be student run and led, and not a regular event sponsored by the school or using facilities at the school.

    The problem is that given the language of the EAA many schools interpret it to mean that there can be no monitor or sponsor who is a school employee. And, if they have rules that require a teacher or staffer direct, participate, or at least coordinate/permit access to school facilities for the organization then they are violating the EAA. In an effort to forestall any arguments on what is or is not considered participation by the school, many have opted to either prohibit ANY activity that might be seen as having a religious component (even if they are inclusive and/or not mandating any acts of faith at the meetings including YMCA, Boy Scouts, Young Life, or Friday Night Live, and others), or, to ban any organizations not directly related to a sanctioned and legitimate school activity (sports, math, science, etc.).

    We have school groups that meet off campus at church facilities because the local schools have opted to err on the side of extreme caution. As a result, though, these off-site meetings often DO have the participation of school staff and teachers.
  • 03-09-2020, 10:02 AM
    pg1067
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    It's been three days since you posted, and you've received several responses but haven't returned to the thread. That's unfortunate.


    Quote:

    Quoting Peregrine
    View Post
    Hi, so I'm in a public high school and I'm part of a religious group. The school is only allowing us to meet after school. They do let other groups meet during the school day but I think the two I know of aren't student-led groups,

    Please elaborate on this because it's incredibly important to your question.


    Quote:

    Quoting Peregrine
    View Post
    Is there any case to allow us to meet during the day during study hall when I know at least two other groups are?

    Depends on what exactly "study hall" means. Is it simply a free period when you can pretty much do as you please? Do all the members of your "group" have "study hall" at the same time? Where would you propose to meet? What is the nature of the "two other groups"?


    Quote:

    Quoting Peregrine
    View Post
    I was thinking of the equal access clause but I don't know if that applies.
    Thanks

    Please clarify what you're talking about here.
  • 03-09-2020, 03:27 PM
    Mercy&Grace
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I am also familiar with the organization and this event as it happens every year at my local high schools as well. But, it's not generally considered a school club or organization as it tends to be student run and led, and not a regular event sponsored by the school or using facilities at the school.

    The problem is that given the language of the EAA many schools interpret it to mean that there can be no monitor or sponsor who is a school employee. And, if they have rules that require a teacher or staffer direct, participate, or at least coordinate/permit access to school facilities for the organization then they are violating the EAA. In an effort to forestall any arguments on what is or is not considered participation by the school, many have opted to either prohibit ANY activity that might be seen as having a religious component (even if they are inclusive and/or not mandating any acts of faith at the meetings including YMCA, Boy Scouts, Young Life, or Friday Night Live, and others), or, to ban any organizations not directly related to a sanctioned and legitimate school activity (sports, math, science, etc.).

    We have school groups that meet off campus at church facilities because the local schools have opted to err on the side of extreme caution. As a result, though, these off-site meetings often DO have the participation of school staff and teachers.

    The group my youngest daughter was president of was Not school sponsored. They met before school at the flagpole to pray. If I remember correctly, there were one, sometimes two teachers there to pray only. They were Not there as teachers. This was a public high school.
  • 03-10-2020, 10:36 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Religious Club in Public School
    Quote:

    Quoting Mercy&Grace
    View Post
    The group my youngest daughter was president of was Not school sponsored. They met before school at the flagpole to pray. If I remember correctly, there were one, sometimes two teachers there to pray only. They were Not there as teachers. This was a public high school.

    Yep. Same here. Though, in some districts, teachers were prohibited from participating. Locally, teachers did ... but, we're in a red part of CA where crazy has not yet taken over completely.

    It is programs that used to meet on school grounds that have been affected by the shift in political winds over the last dozen years or so. YMCA, Boy Scouts, Young Life, Friday Night Live, and other organizations have been driven off campuses even as other groups have been encouraged. Many schools opt for NO non-academic clubs or organizations on campus to avoid the controversy altogether. Or, they make rules that effectively ban the club by crafting regulations the group cannot possibly meet. It is an ongoing struggle for all involved.
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