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Use of Our Space Part 2
My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of: Tennessee
A month or two ago I posted about this. I will try to be short and to the point.
Two adults, two young children in a two bedroom apartment. Since we co-sleep one of our rooms we use for storage. Property manager does a monthly pest control/inspection. She complained about the second bedroom being cluttered and unsafe because of toy storage. Got an official lease violation stating she would be back to re-inspect in 48 hours. I piled everything onto the bed and made a clear path from the door to the window. Second inspection never took place, even though we stayed at home all day for this.
Some of the things, I had to move into the dining area which we do not use. Some things include my daughter's art easel, the baby's walker, an extra car seat. In that dining area we have both a desk and a table which we have placed things on top of, such as extra food that doesn't fit into cabinets, and at the time being some remaining Christmas lights that we need to take back to storage (yes we have a storage unit already).
So we had an inspection yesterday and today we get another lease violation. This time regarding the clutter in the dining area. The notice reads "It has been noticed during inspection your unit has a large amount of clutter in the dining area. Per your community rules, Section 16, paragraph 3, Keep walls and woodwork free from dirty hand prints, ink, crayons, stickers and holes. Carpet, vinyl, tile and baseboards are to be kepth clean at all times. Vacuum carpet frequently. Beverage and food spots can be removed with cold water and a mild soap. Clean vinyl or tile thoroughly before waxing. Keep floors free from clutter, toys, clothes, etc."
It is important to note that our house is clean...the floors are clean, the walls are clean, no crayon marks, kitchen, bathroom, livingroom, master bedroom we do use is spotless.
At this point it is clear she is picking on us. The previous problem was that we were blocking the path from door to window in the other room which she deemed a safety hazard due to fire possibility. OK I can take that. But now she is picking on an area that has zero windows.
Our lease is in the process of being renewed for the end of March. We have turned all paperwork in. We pay our rent on time, and rarely complain about anything aside from when our A/C stopped working or when the hot water heater broke. This is the cheapest place we have found to rent and aside from the harassment mentioned above there are no significant problems. I mean we did go out the other day to a huge trail of dog crap all over the breezeway and down the stairs. And there are never no less than 20 cigarette butts in the path between our vehicle, in the breezeway, up the stairs and directly in front of our door to our second floor apartment (talk about a fire hazard not to mention disgusting).
We really cannot afford to move and need to know what we can do to get this woman to cease picking on us? Would a lawyer be able to send a letter that tells her to quit? And even if that is done, she will probably just find something else to pick at and retaliate. Just another incidence of a renter being victim, right? Yes, at this point I am frustrated.
One last thing to note. I have read reviews of this place and others who were either evicted or did not have their lease renewed made similar complaints and said that when prospective new properties called (for reference) she would bring up all the frivolous lease violations and bad mouth the prospective tenants to the point they could not get approved for a new place.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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JDIAC
My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of: Tennessee
A month or two ago I posted about this. I will try to be short and to the point.
Two adults, two young children in a two bedroom apartment. Since we co-sleep one of our rooms we use for storage. Property manager does a monthly pest control/inspection. She complained about the second bedroom being cluttered and unsafe because of toy storage. Got an official lease violation stating she would be back to re-inspect in 48 hours. I piled everything onto the bed and made a clear path from the door to the window. Second inspection never took place, even though we stayed at home all day for this.
Some of the things, I had to move into the dining area which we do not use. Some things include my daughter's art easel, the baby's walker, an extra car seat. In that dining area we have both a desk and a table which we have placed things on top of, such as extra food that doesn't fit into cabinets, and at the time being some remaining Christmas lights that we need to take back to storage (yes we have a storage unit already).
So we had an inspection yesterday and today we get another lease violation. This time regarding the clutter in the dining area. The notice reads "It has been noticed during inspection your unit has a large amount of clutter in the dining area. Per your community rules, Section 16, paragraph 3, Keep walls and woodwork free from dirty hand prints, ink, crayons, stickers and holes. Carpet, vinyl, tile and baseboards are to be kepth clean at all times. Vacuum carpet frequently. Beverage and food spots can be removed with cold water and a mild soap. Clean vinyl or tile thoroughly before waxing. Keep floors free from clutter, toys, clothes, etc."
It is important to note that our house is clean...the floors are clean, the walls are clean, no crayon marks, kitchen, bathroom, livingroom, master bedroom we do use is spotless.
At this point it is clear she is picking on us. The previous problem was that we were blocking the path from door to window in the other room which she deemed a safety hazard due to fire possibility. OK I can take that. But now she is picking on an area that has zero windows.
Our lease is in the process of being renewed for the end of March. We have turned all paperwork in. We pay our rent on time, and rarely complain about anything aside from when our A/C stopped working or when the hot water heater broke. This is the cheapest place we have found to rent and aside from the harassment mentioned above there are no significant problems. I mean we did go out the other day to a huge trail of dog crap all over the breezeway and down the stairs. And there are never no less than 20 cigarette butts in the path between our vehicle, in the breezeway, up the stairs and directly in front of our door to our second floor apartment (talk about a fire hazard not to mention disgusting).
We really cannot afford to move and need to know what we can do to get this woman to cease picking on us? Would a lawyer be able to send a letter that tells her to quit? And even if that is done, she will probably just find something else to pick at and retaliate. Just another incidence of a renter being victim, right? Yes, at this point I am frustrated.
One last thing to note. I have read reviews of this place and others who were either evicted or did not have their lease renewed made similar complaints and said that when prospective new properties called (for reference) she would bring up all the frivolous lease violations and bad mouth the prospective tenants to the point they could not get approved for a new place.
What she is basically saying is that you have to keep your home spotless at all times which is simply impossible to do when you have children with equipment and toys. I think that you need to make a formal complaint to the owners of the complex about this manager. I think that you need to tell them pretty much all of the information contained in the above post, and I think that you should tell them that her monthly inspections interfere with your quiet use and enjoyment of the apartment and therefore violates your lease.
However, if you really want to stay there, then you might want to wait to do it until after the new lease is signed.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
Since none of us can see your apartment we cannot comment on its state and whether or not it's reasonable or not. One person's clean is another persons unacceptable mess.
Leasing companies are pretty good at compliance and still having unreasonable terms. SO, what I'd recommend is pretty much what Ilworking said. Lodge a formal complaint with the agency that oversees this.
Contacting an attorney will be fruitless unless you plan to file suit and it sounds ike you don't have the resources to do so and, by the time it went anywhere your current lease would likely be up and I cannot see it being renewed in the face of a pending lawsuit.
But, also in accord with Ilworking, Why do you want to stay? If the terms of the lease are the same and the state chooses to intervene, perhaps because it's determines to be simply unreasonable and not illegal, you'll continue to be the subject of the LL's scrutiny. Hell, you'll likely stay the target in any event. It's not illegal to be a jerk...in virtually all cases.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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Mark47n
Since none of us can see your apartment we cannot comment on its state and whether or not it's reasonable or not. One person's clean is another persons unacceptable mess.
Leasing companies are pretty good at compliance and still having unreasonable terms. SO, what I'd recommend is pretty much what Ilworking said. Lodge a formal complaint with the agency that oversees this.
Contacting an attorney will be fruitless unless you plan to file suit and it sounds ike you don't have the resources to do so and, by the time it went anywhere your current lease would likely be up and I cannot see it being renewed in the face of a pending lawsuit.
But, also in accord with Ilworking, Why do you want to stay? If the terms of the lease are the same and the state chooses to intervene, perhaps because it's determines to be simply unreasonable and not illegal, you'll continue to be the subject of the LL's scrutiny. Hell, you'll likely stay the target in any event. It's not illegal to be a jerk...in virtually all cases.
Just to clarify. I did not suggest that the OP lodge a complaint with any state agency. I suggested that the OP lodge a complaint with the actual owners of the property. In other words, the boss of the manager.
Also, the OP made it very clear that their home was clean, but just cluttered.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
Fair enough regarding contacting the owner but, since the owner hired a manager it's unlikely their going to intervene but, hey, you never know.
As to the home being clean, one person's clean is another persons mess. We have no idea what the OP's home looks like and, having lived with lightweight hoarders and inveterate slobs that insisted that our home was clean I can attest to the disparity.
At the end of the day the lease is going to prevail as are the judgments of the managers and owners absent violating any laws.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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Mark47n
Since none of us can see your apartment we cannot comment on its state and whether or not it's reasonable or not. One person's clean is another persons unacceptable mess.
Leasing companies are pretty good at compliance and still having unreasonable terms. SO, what I'd recommend is pretty much what Ilworking said. Lodge a formal complaint with the agency that oversees this.
Contacting an attorney will be fruitless unless you plan to file suit and it sounds ike you don't have the resources to do so and, by the time it went anywhere your current lease would likely be up and I cannot see it being renewed in the face of a pending lawsuit.
But, also in accord with Ilworking, Why do you want to stay? If the terms of the lease are the same and the state chooses to intervene, perhaps because it's determines to be simply unreasonable and not illegal, you'll continue to be the subject of the LL's scrutiny. Hell, you'll likely stay the target in any event. It's not illegal to be a jerk...in virtually all cases.
Monthly inspections are not reasonable, in my opinion. The owner might not be aware that its going on.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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llworking
Monthly inspections are not reasonable, in my opinion. The owner might not be aware that its going on.
I have a question: If it was unreasonable, such as if the landlord wanted to inspect the neatness of a closet, and the tenant signed a lease agreeing to it, would it be legal grounds to evict someone if the their closet was not up to par?
IMO, a signed contract that is unreasonable and is not inline with industry standards is unenforceable.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
IMO, a signed contract that is unreasonable and is not inline with industry standards is unenforceable.
Unreasonable does not automatically equate to legally unenforceable. The presumption is that you fully read your lease before you signed it, were aware of the conditions and still chose to sign. If you found something unreasonable, you have the option to try and negotiate or walk away.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
IMO, a signed contract that is unreasonable and is not inline with industry standards is unenforceable.
Industry standards in a residential lease mean nothing. It the particular point is in violation of the law then it would be unenforceable.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
I have a question: If it was unreasonable, such as if the landlord wanted to inspect the neatness of a closet, and the tenant signed a lease agreeing to it, would it be legal grounds to evict someone if the their closet was not up to par?
IMO, a signed contract that is unreasonable and is not inline with industry standards is unenforceable.
I suspect that the lease says something along the lines of "the tenant will obey the apartment complex rules" and then the manager sets the rules as whatever the manager wants. The fact that the manager even has time to do monthly inspections of every apartment is suspect in my mind. If she were my employee I would wonder what I was paying her for.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
Is this Section 8 housing?
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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PayrolGuy
Industry standards in a residential lease mean nothing. It the particular point is in violation of the law then it would be unenforceable.
I believe that it is unreasonable to do such frequent and inspections and for a landlord to be concerned with a tenant tripping on toys. Therefore the landlord was not entitled to contractually require this of a tenant.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
I believe that it is unreasonable to do such frequent and inspections and for a landlord to be concerned with a tenant tripping on toys. Therefore the landlord was not entitled to contractually require this of a tenant.
I think it is unreasonable as well. But unless there is some law in the state where the OP lives that says otherwise she can sign a lease with a condition that you or I would find unreasonable. Because a court is going to assume that the OP felt the condition was reasonable when they signed the lease.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
I'm going to suggest that because this is the cheapest place the OP has found to rent and because of the description of the cigarette butts/dog fecal matter outside that perhaps others tenants are not as careful as the OP in keeping their units clean. Thus the emphasis on focusing on minute details during monthly inspections.
As suggested, complaining about what might be found during these inspections isn't really a smart move until that new lease is signed. Otherwise there is nothing stopping management from simply failing to renew the current which appears to be due to end very soon.
Gail
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
It is not section 8 housing. But it is an income restricted property. You cannot make more than "x" amount of dollars per "x" amount of occupants to live here when you first qualify to move in. We will be here three years at March's lease renewal. As it turns out we now make above the income limit but that does not matter because that is only considered when you initially move in. We got our lease renewal letter before the end of the year and turned in all the paperwork and we are just waiting on an appointment to go sign the lease.
I will not lie. It IS unsightly clutter. But it is not garbage. There are no odors. There is not a pest control problem. In my opinion, it is not unsafe because it is in a dining room corner that has no doors or windows. What the clutter consists of is some larger pieces of children's toys or equipment such as a plastic art easel that belongs to our daughter, my son's walker, the highchair, and there is a desk and a table. Those have some extra food that cannot fit into our limited kitchen cabinet space such as unopened cereal boxes, some baby food containers, and at the time she was in here for inspection there were some strands of Christmas lights that had recently come down that we need to neatly box up and take to our storage unit. To be fair, this apartment is too small for us. It helps that we co-sleep, but our hope is to buy our own (three bedroom) place when we can afford to do so. Right now I am a full time student and a stay at home mom and my husband is the only income earner. There are other places we could move to but they are hundreds dollars more per month and that would not help with our desire to save to buy a house.
I remember last year she even made a remark about our Christmas tree, saying "I won't say anything about that because it will be coming down soon".
I believe it is the owners of the property that require these inspections. She is the second manager that has been here since we have moved in. The first manager never gave us problems. The monthly inspection is in the lease and we actually don't really have a problem with it. They bring in pest control and check our air filter and the smoke detectors to make sure they are working. What I do have a problem with is the micromanaging, nitpicking telling us where we have to place our stuff. If it were damaging the property or hurting anyone I would understand it. These are not luxury apartments and to be quite frank there are some weird people living here...like the young man and woman who hang out at the mailboxes every.single.day smoking for a couple of hours. They had a nice pile of cigarette butts accumulated under a bush next to the mail box shelter (which it meant to be lit but has only had working lights maybe one month out of the nearly three years we have lived here).
The manager herself is a chain smoker. More than half of the time when we drive up to our place we spot her on the office back porch having a smoke break. So yeah, I do wonder where she finds the time to get her work done. And when she comes into our place she smells like smoke to the point I can barely breathe around her and I certainly don't want that around my children.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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PayrolGuy
I think it is unreasonable as well. But unless there is some law in the state where the OP lives that says otherwise she can sign a lease with a condition that you or I would find unreasonable. Because a court is going to assume that the OP felt the condition was reasonable when they signed the lease.
I don't believe a landlord can put whatever language they want in a lease. It must pertain to what they have authority over like the wellbeing of their property. Picking up toys and where you store your cereal is not the landlord's concern.
Example: If there was language in a lease that allowed/required the landlord to choose what you wore each day, and you signed it, do you really think they could legally evict you in a courtroom over non-compliance? No way, and the same with the OP. Both cases would be laughed out of the courtroom IMO.
When a stupid person writes a lease and a naive person signs it, it isn't automatically binding.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
When a stupid person writes a lease and a naive person signs it, it isn't automatically binding.
Unless it is in violation of a law: Yes, it is. Until such time as a court or the parties mutually agree otherwise.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
I don't believe a landlord can put whatever language they want in a lease. It must pertain to what they have authority over like the wellbeing of their property. Picking up toys and where you store your cereal is not the landlord's concern.
Example: If there was language in a lease that allowed/required the landlord to choose what you wore each day, and you signed it, do you really think they could legally evict you in a courtroom over non-compliance? No way, and the same with the OP. They both would be laughed out of the courtroom IMO.
When a stupid person writes a lease and a naive person signs it, it isn't automatically binding.
I'm not saying it won't get dismissed by a judge but it would make it through preliminary hearings as there isn't a specific law against it.
With a lease clause such as we are discussing, I'd question the intelligence of both parties but stupid people are allowed to write themselves into a bind.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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PayrolGuy
I'm not saying it won't get dismissed by a judge but it would make it through preliminary hearings as there isn't a specific law against it.
With a lease clause such as we are discussing, I'd question the intelligence of both parties but stupid people are allowed to write themselves into a bind.
A Judge cannot just dismiss whatever he wants. He must have justification for the dismissal. What would it be?
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free9man
Unless it is in violation of a law: Yes, it is. Until such time as a court or the parties mutually agree otherwise.
What in your experience do you base this statement on?
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
What in your experience do you base this statement on?
Common sense. A basic understanding of contract law. What is your experience makes you believe otherwise?
Although I will grant you this based on your wording of the issue. If by stupid and naive, you mean that one or both parties do not possess sufficient mental capacity to be considered capable of entering into a contract, that would not be a problem.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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free9man
Common sense. A basic understanding of contract law. What is your experience makes you believe otherwise?
Although I will grant you this based on your wording of the issue. If by stupid and naive, you mean that one or both parties do not possess sufficient mental capacity to be considered capable of entering into a contract, that would not be a problem.
So you have never seen a lease like this enforced or dismissed?
Also, you think there are zero restrictions on what can be included and enforced in a rental lease?
Put it this way...There is no law that states a plumber cannot contractually charge $50,000 to change a toilet. Yet if you refuse to pay it upon completion, and he sues you for it in court, why would the judge throw it out? Hint: Please apply your knowledge of "contract law."
.....And off to Google he goes. :)
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
So you have never seen a lease like this enforced or dismissed?
Nope. Have you? I'm betting not. I'm sure if someone wanted to dig through the decades of cases on rental leases, they might find something on point.
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CONNOR99
Also, you think there are zero restrictions on what can be included and enforced in a rental lease?
As long as it is not in violation of a law and both parties agree to it or until a court says it is not allowed, yes.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
A Judge cannot just dismiss whatever he wants. He must have justification for the dismissal. What would it be?
Now you are arguing the other side.
The justification would be either the clause is against public policy if the judge was following your argument or that there is no law and the clause stands if he were taking my side of the argument.
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PayrolGuy
Now you are arguing the other side.
The justification would be either the clause is against public policy if the judge was following your argument or that there is no law and the clause stands if he were taking my side of the argument.
What's that?
So, you're saying a Judge would dismiss it because it was not in compliance with "public policy?"
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
What's that?
So, you're saying a Judge would dismiss it because it was not in compliance with "public policy?"
Example: Someone could sign a contract to be someone's slave for 4 years. Slavery is against the law and against public policy.
Example: Someone could sign a contract stating that their first born child will marry someone in exchange for a monetary payment. That is against public policy.
A judge could dismiss both cases.
In this instance the lease says that the units can be inspected. It probably does not say that the manager can violate tenants if she doesn't like the way that they have arranged their living space or the way that they store their children's toys. So, if the manager attempted to evict a tenant for those kinds of nit-picky things, its quite likely that a judge would dismiss the case.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
What's that?
So, you're saying a Judge would dismiss it because it was not in compliance with "public policy?"
No, I was answering your question in full. There is no reason to think that a judge would actually make up such a ruling out of whole cloth but I will admit one could because judges have been known to do stupid things. That's why we have appeals courts.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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llworking
Example: Someone could sign a contract to be someone's slave for 4 years. Slavery is against the law and against public policy.
Example: Someone could sign a contract stating that their first born child will marry someone in exchange for a monetary payment. That is against public policy.
A judge could dismiss both cases.
In this instance the lease says that the units can be inspected. It probably does not say that the manager can violate tenants if she doesn't like the way that they have arranged their living space or the way that they store their children's toys. So, if the manager attempted to evict a tenant for those kinds of nit-picky things, its quite likely that a judge would dismiss the case.
And if the lease stated you are to arrange your cereal boxes a certain way, and you don't, a Judge would be forced to enforce that eviction? His hands would be tied by that ridiculous lease language?
I know for a fact that a plumber cannot enforce a $50K labor bill for changing a toilet. Why?
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
And if the lease stated you are to arrange your cereal boxes a certain way, and you don't, a Judge would be forced to enforce that eviction? His hands would be tied by that ridiculous lease language?
I know for a fact that a plumber cannot enforce a $50K labor bill for changing a toilet. Why?
People knowingly agree to stupid things every day. The fact that things are stupid doesn't make them unenforceable.
If the buyer signed a contract that they would pay $50K for a toilet it could certainly be enforceable.
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PayrolGuy
People knowingly agree to stupid things every day. The fact that things are stupid doesn't make them unenforceable.
If the buyer signed a contract that they would pay $50K for a toilet it could certainly be enforceable.
Nice wording..."could" instead of would?
You are wrong about the $50K plumbing bill!
I've asked several times now, why would a Judge dismiss the cereal box case when cereal boxes were in the lease language?
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
Nice wording..."could" instead of would?
You are wrong about the $50K plumbing bill!
I've asked several times now, why would a Judge dismiss the cereal box case when cereal boxes were in the lease language?
Clearly you've never been in the military or serviced a government contract. You also missed the years go the $1000 hammer and $10,000 dollar toilets in the military.
Once you enter into a contract you are bound by that contract unless the terms of the contract are illegal. That may not invalidate the entire contract if the terms are severable. In this case, if the inspections are in the lease and the noted clause are in the lease then the lessee is bound by the term regardless of how unreasonable the terms may seem to you and I.
Your vehemence that you're right about any and all things that you post about makes it impossible to engage in discussion with you. You offer no defense of your ridiculous positions yet insist that we defend our positions.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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CONNOR99
And if the lease stated you are to arrange your cereal boxes a certain way, and you don't, a Judge would be forced to enforce that eviction? His hands would be tied by that ridiculous lease language?
I know for a fact that a plumber cannot enforce a $50K labor bill for changing a toilet. Why?
Its quite possible that if the lease was that ridiculous that a judge might rule that the lease is unenforceable.
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CONNOR99
Nice wording..."could" instead of would?
Because when dealing with hypotheticals and not fully know fact sets it is stupid to make absolute statements.
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You are wrong about the $50K plumbing bill!
Just like this one of yours.
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I've asked several times now, why would a Judge dismiss the cereal box case when cereal boxes were in the lease language?
I can't think of one.
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llworking
Its quite possible that if the lease was that ridiculous that a judge might rule that the lease is unenforceable.
But there may be a very good reason for what, when stated in a single sentence on a forum, seems ridiculous.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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llworking
Its quite possible that if the lease was that ridiculous that a judge might rule that the lease is unenforceable.
I've seen Section 8 (and income-restricted) apartments where the apartments were inspected every 6 months or so. I helped a friend of mine clean walls, baseboards, and the rest of the apartment because the management was coming to inspect her apartment. Granted, this happened in AL over 20 years ago, and OP is in TN, but I can see it being legal.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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BooRennie
I've seen Section 8 (and income-restricted) apartments where the apartments were inspected every 6 months or so. I helped a friend of mine clean walls, baseboards, and the rest of the apartment because the management was coming to inspect her apartment. Granted, this happened in AL over 20 years ago, and OP is in TN, but I can see it being legal.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, nor would I consider it unreasonable for a landlord to inspect (particularly section 8 housing) every six months. Its the combination of monthly inspection, AND the landlord threatening violations because they don't like the way someone's home is organized.
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llworking
It wouldn't surprise me at all, nor would I consider it unreasonable for a landlord to inspect (particularly section 8 housing) every six months. Its the combination of monthly inspection, AND the landlord threatening violations because they don't like the way someone's home is organized.
Based on an earlier description the portion of the apartment in question is not organized, or may not be considered organized by the observer.
We don't know what the apartment looks like in it's general condition, we only know what one clause states and we only have the opinion if the OP which could be considered biased.
Again, while the monthly inspections appear to be unreasonable it's moot since the OP signed a lease with this in the contract and it's not illegal. It's onerous, it's a burden and can cause the OP problems, though what that looks like is unclear, but the OP agreed to the conditions and must now tolerate the LL in their home expressing opinions as to the state of their home. So far the only harm the OP has suffered seems to be enduring criticism.
If they choose to pursue legal action they will have to determine the legal basis for the claim and likely hire an attorney to handle the action with a rather unsure outcome that, even if successful, would net nothing except maybe a declaration of some sort that that clause was void or something.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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Mark47n
Based on an earlier description the portion of the apartment in question is not organized, or may not be considered organized by the observer.
I agree. However, as long as the apartment isn't actually dirty, it shouldn't be any of the landlord's business how it's organized.
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We don't know what the apartment looks like in it's general condition, we only know what one clause states and we only have the opinion if the OP which could be considered biased.
I find the OP credible.
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Again, while the monthly inspections appear to be unreasonable it's moot since the OP signed a lease with this in the contract and it's not illegal. It's onerous, it's a burden and can cause the OP problems, though what that looks like is unclear, but the OP agreed to the conditions and must now tolerate the LL in their home expressing opinions as to the state of their home. So far the only harm the OP has suffered seems to be enduring criticism.
Re-read. Its not just criticisms, its threats.
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If they choose to pursue legal action they will have to determine the legal basis for the claim and likely hire an attorney to handle the action with a rather unsure outcome that, even if successful, would net nothing except maybe a declaration of some sort that that clause was void or something.
I am not suggesting that they sue. I am suggesting that the stand up to the nit picky manager, but not until after their lease is renewed.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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JDIAC
It is not section 8 housing. But it is an income restricted property. You cannot make more than "x" amount of dollars per "x" amount of occupants to live here when you first qualify to move in. We will be here three years at March's lease renewal. As it turns out we now make above the income limit but that does not matter because that is only considered when you initially move in. We got our lease renewal letter before the end of the year and turned in all the paperwork and we are just waiting on an appointment to go sign the lease.
From what you are saying it sounds like you are living at a Low Income Housing Tax Credit (LIHTC) property. If so, the owners receive federal funding and are subject to federal housing (HUD) rules, which includes that they cannot terminate anyone’s lease without cause. However it’s also my understanding that anyone in LIHTC housing must pass an annual income recertification so I don’t know why you would only have to qualify once.
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Quoting
JDIAC
So we had an inspection yesterday and today we get another lease violation. This time regarding the clutter in the dining area. The notice reads "It has been noticed during inspection your unit has a large amount of clutter in the dining area. Per your community rules, Section 16, paragraph 3, Keep walls and woodwork free from dirty hand prints, ink, crayons, stickers and holes. Carpet, vinyl, tile and baseboards are to be kepth clean at all times. Vacuum carpet frequently. Beverage and food spots can be removed with cold water and a mild soap. Clean vinyl or tile thoroughly before waxing. Keep floors free from clutter, toys, clothes, etc."
It is important to note that our house is clean...the floors are clean, the walls are clean, no crayon marks, kitchen, bathroom, livingroom, master bedroom we do use is spotless.
At this point it is clear she is picking on us. The previous problem was that we were blocking the path from door to window in the other room which she deemed a safety hazard due to fire possibility. OK I can take that. But now she is picking on an area that has zero windows.
Although it does not appear that your clutter meets the definition of hoarding as a mental illness, it is still possible that you could claim entitlement under the Fair Housing Act Amendments to “reasonable accommodations of policies, practices or services when such when such accommodations may be necessary to afford such person equal opportunity to use and enjoy a dwelling.” 42 U.S.C. 3604(f)(3)(B).
Since 2013, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) has recognized that hoarding is a mental disability, and hoarders have been recognized under the FHHA as a protected class. The part of your notice that says, “Keep floors free from clutter, toys, clothes, etc." could be interpreted as illegal discrimination, because it targets anyone who hoards stuff but does not violate any building, fire or health codes. The problem is that your situation probably does not rise to the level of mental illness, meaning that you still might have a duty to follow the terms of your lease.
The above is sort of a long shot argument that I found to be interesting, but definitely one I would only want to try AFTER renewing my lease.
I read several articles on the web that suggest to me maybe apartment managers are in a gray area when trying to strictly enforce rules against clutter. The Fair Housing Project of Legal Aid of North Carolina has a good article that I’m linking here as a reference, and applies to federally funded housing in any state.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
Per the first post there was mention of piling to make a path to the window. This call into question the what "clean" means.
Whether or not you consider the OP credible (I have not said they are not) they are still likely biased because it's in their interest.
The threat that are mentioned seem to reference lease violations. It's within the LL's purview to enforce the lease.
We don't know if it's a nit picky LL or not. It's the chief problem with a forum such as this is we get selective at worst or incomplete snapshots of complex situations upon which we base our information. This is not a criticism of OP's, largely, it's just a pitfall of forums. The real problem is when we presume a complete picture or lend sterling credibility to an OP without questioning the possibility of bias and the make definitive statements that we really aren't in a position to make about specific situation. So, for myself, I believe the the OP is in a difficult though self-imposed situation that they are looking to perpetuate despite existing problems with management and that management MAY be in the right. Alas, it doesn't APPEAR that the LL or owner is doing anything illegal, just invasive and maybe punitive per the terms of the existing lease and with terms that will carry through the next lease. If I were the OP I would leave, especially since the OP stated that they could afford it but it would be a hit due to their status as a student. So, the real choice is summarized by an old song from the 1980's: should I leave or should I go. I would go.
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
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Quoting
Mark47n
an old song from the 1980's: should I leave or should I go. I would go.
Should I STAY or should I go now....
The Clash. What fun. :indecisiveness:
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Re: Use of Our Space Part 2
So once again, just like last time, we got this lease violation notice to fix it within 48 hours in which there would be a re-inspection. And once again, we fixed it all and waited all day and she did not come back to re-inspect. I really don't know what to make of that. What scares me is that when I have read reviews of this place, she has evicted others or else not renewed their lease and when new properties called her to question those prospective tenant histories, she brought up all her frivolous lease violations and bad mouthed the people to the point they could not get approved to live elsewhere.
Meanwhile this problem has gotten my husband and I into an argument (when she does this I feel like I have to go above and beyond to organize the clutter and he feels like picking one or two things up is enough), and it has caused me to stress to the point I am unable to concentrate on my school work and even sleep because I cannot get into a deep sleep I keep thinking of this lease violation even when I try to sleep. I already suffer from GAD and she is aware of this.
I would leave in a heartbeat if that were an option. But here in east TN, because so many people are moving here rents have risen. What we pay for our two bedroom apartment now is actually less than what most people pay for a one bedroom in an "OK" apartment complex, or an older mobile home. Quite frankly, we are tired of renting due to various reasons and we are just biding our time until we are in a position to buy. Right now we have to wait one more year it looks like.
This lease states we cannot have a satellite dish on our balcony. In fact when we moved in we were told that Spectrum was the only option as it was the only one wired for this area. We overpaid for Spectrum for two years before we ran into an AT&T salesman who assured us we could get service in this area. We were going to get a huge deal including a satellite but it needed to go out on our balcony (no damage to property). We called to verify the lease and she said absolutely not. So we ended up going with AT&T anyway but not getting the awesome bundle deal. Meanwhile I learned this lease is not enforceable due to Federal Communications Commission Order 98-273 however I did not want to "step on toes" so to speak because I don't want to give her reason to nitpick or not renew our lease. I know a lot of tenants cause problems but geez, being a renter is the pits! After we got AT&T we noticed a lot of wi-fi names are now AT&T not Spectrum/Charter so we are happy to have at least paved that way for them.