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Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest

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  • 12-17-2019, 02:29 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    Video shows no proof of stealing, only proof that I consumed water at my register and threw the water in the trash without paying.

    Just making sure there is no probable cause to arrest. No probable cause to arrest, right?

    If the video shows you consumed the water and there is evidence you did not pay for it, that's going to be enough for probable cause. Probable cause is not a high standard. Drinking the employer's water and not paying for it would certainly appear to be theft. Your lawyer can challenge the probable cause at the appropriate hearing if the lawyer believes there is a case to be made for that. But based on your statement above, that may be a hard sell to the judge.
  • 12-17-2019, 02:45 PM
    Mark47n
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    I consumed Snickers, Carmellos, Rice crispy treats, M&M's, water, and energy drinks at my register, before paying, every day for months and paid on my break, lunch, or when another cashier was around. I did it in front of everyone. I would grab a water and drink it right in front of everyone in the garden center, on camera, and then pay for it whenever I had the chance (or on break). Every cashier working in GC rang up my empty water bottles, empty candy bar wrappers, empty chip bags.

    I was going through withdraws from cigarettes and coffee. That is the only reason I every started buying items in garden. Extreme sugar cravings and flushing my system with water. Going from 2 Monster drinks a day and a pack of cigarettes a day down to 1 energy drink, half pack, 10 cigs, 5 cigs, back to half pack, on and on.

    Until then, in those months, I worked there for 2 years and never really purchased anything from the register I worked at. I had extreme brain fog, sweats, trouble remembering what I was doing one minute to the next.

    Can't believe this. Most insulting and disrespectful thing that has ever happened to me. I learned from it though.

    To start at the top, you consumed products and had squirreled away other products that you didn't pay for. Why doesn't really matter. Theft can happen unintentionally though to claim that you "forgot" is a common response by shoplifters. AP's job is not to believe you, it's to protect their employers assets.

    LP doesn't have to convince anyone about anything. If you were questioned you're already in hot water even if you didn't know it. You're claiming that it's funny or some sort of joke to someone is really you overstating your importance. LP, store management and corporate don't care about you. They care about your perceived theft. By the time their coming to you about it they've made up their mind and have more evidence about it than a few bottles. I presume they have footage.

    If you were arrested and the DA is pursuing criminal charges (this is not Walmart's prerogative, it's the DA's) then I'm guessing they have more on you than a few bottles in the trash as well. You need an attorney.

    Finally, you can view this as disrespectful but you may want to look at it from the their side. You consumed their products that you didn't pay for. I'm sure they could view it as insulting and disrespectful, especially since you are the one in the wrong by your own admission but LP and corporate will view this in a very impersonal and businesslike way though at the store level it may feel more personal.

    Get an attorney.
  • 12-17-2019, 04:35 PM
    CoryD
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    To start at the top, you consumed products and had squirreled away other products that you didn't pay for. Why doesn't really matter. Theft can happen unintentionally though to claim that you "forgot" is a common response by shoplifters. AP's job is not to believe you, it's to protect their employers assets.

    LP doesn't have to convince anyone about anything. If you were questioned you're already in hot water even if you didn't know it. You're claiming that it's funny or some sort of joke to someone is really you overstating your importance. LP, store management and corporate don't care about you. They care about your perceived theft. By the time their coming to you about it they've made up their mind and have more evidence about it than a few bottles. I presume they have footage.

    If you were arrested and the DA is pursuing criminal charges (this is not Walmart's prerogative, it's the DA's) then I'm guessing they have more on you than a few bottles in the trash as well. You need an attorney.

    Finally, you can view this as disrespectful but you may want to look at it from the their side. You consumed their products that you didn't pay for. I'm sure they could view it as insulting and disrespectful, especially since you are the one in the wrong by your own admission but LP and corporate will view this in a very impersonal and businesslike way though at the store level it may feel more personal.

    Get an attorney.

    I missed TWO important factors in my case. They need INTENT to steal for probable cause and sufficient evidence of a crime. Without INTENT to steal, they can't pursue the case; I'm going to get it dismissed come hell or high water.

    1) I live at home, no kids, no car payment, no credit card payments, no medical bills, food is free at home. I made $1,350/month. No debt.

    2) I'm an employee, not a customer. Employee theft is a total different scenario when it comes to INTENT and probable cause -- we work KNOWING we're being watched. With me, part of my job is to stop theft by watching the door; it's in my job description as the lead cashier in Garden Center. They HAVE to take that into consideration. My request.


    * Most theft cases are people who steal something they want or need. Maybe they're poor and it's for their kids. Maybe they seen a $3.00 keychain and care nothing about law or ethics.

    Where is the intent to steal, if they won't dismiss?

    Either way one thing is for sure. I'm in this mess because Asset Protection said, almost in these exact words:

    "We know Cory always pays for his consumed items at his register, but we noticed a few of those items were thrown in the trash and not paid for on his lunch or break as usual. We believe Cory has pretended to forget those items as a way of trying to get away with stealing from Wal-Mart"

    ....so where is the intent to steal?

    Forgetting is grounds for a write-up or termination. Barely.

    You don't call the cops on an employee who forgot to pay for his consumables - I don't care how many bottles of water it was. The right thing to do is call me into the office on the second bottle and mention that if it happens again I'll get a write up. That's policy.

    I could see if it was a customer.

    AP knew it and did nothing about it because they thought they could get me fired and arrested; like hunting for pray. I bet they sat their in the room waiting, thinking "come on, come on, just do it one more time and we can get you"

    It was probably that mentality that caused them to wrongly and falsely accuse one of their own for a crime that their fellow business co-worker did not commit.

    They owe me an apology.

    (And I really am innocent, so I can demand that from them AND Wal-Mart)

    BTW man, if I were to call corporate and say that I have been wrongly accused of theft and REQUEST A REVIEW OF THE VIDEO TAPES and DEMAND my job back, then they would probably hire me back at a 25 cent pay raise. Wal-Mart is a people-person down to earth company who takes very good care of their employees.

    I should call corporate now that I think about it. It would look good in court if Wal-Mart admits they made a mistake and apologized for wrongly accusing their hard working employee for something as hilarious as bottles of water and a bag of chips.

    LOL....
  • 12-17-2019, 05:00 PM
    pg1067
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    I didn't steal or did it on purpose though. I can pay the fines, get a new job, and do the community service...but I cannot admit to a crime that I did not commit.

    Clearly you can admit to the crimes because you did so in this very thread. That you claim to have "forgotten" to pay doesn't negate the crimes.


    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    If I only consumed 10 bottles of water and didn't pay for 7 then I could see how they could think that. However, the fact that I consumed around 100 bottles of water and forgot to pay for 7 of them (3-6 bottles per day), to me, proves no probable cause.

    I'm guessing that you don't understand what probable cause means and are simply making up a definition that suits you.

    The bottom line here is that you're not innocent of crime X just because on many other occasions you didn't commit crime X.
  • 12-17-2019, 06:56 PM
    cbg
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Just curious.

    How many times should you be allowed to forget to pay before the company should be allowed to take action to stop you from forgetting?
  • 12-17-2019, 06:58 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    I missed TWO important factors in my case. They need INTENT to steal for probable cause and sufficient evidence of a crime. Without INTENT to steal, they can't pursue the case; I'm going to get it dismissed come hell or high water.

    Most crimes are general intent offices, including theft. Thus, intent is typically not hard to prove. They don't have to prove that you intended to commit a crime. What the law requires for general intent is that you intended to do what you did, i.e. that you intended to consume the water and not pay for it. The problem for you is that in general a person is presumed to have intended to do those things that he actually does. If you cross the street, you are assumed to have intended to do that because it takes a deliberate choice to do it. Similarly if you consume goods and didn't pay for them, you are presumed to have intended to do that. It is very difficult to convince a court that you simply "forgot" to pay for it. Thieves claim that every day and lose.
  • 12-17-2019, 07:34 PM
    CoryD
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting cbg
    View Post
    Just curious.

    How many times should you be allowed to forget to pay before the company should be allowed to take action to stop you from forgetting?

    The first time should have been a write-up or coaching in the office. The second time - fired.

    I would fire an employee the second time they forgot to pay for an item. I don't care. If I told you once, then I should not have to tell you again.

    Facts.
  • 12-17-2019, 08:26 PM
    RJR
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Cory, here is FL's theft statute:

    https://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/812.014

    ..A person commits theft if he or she knowingly....

    It appears FL follows the Model Penal Code's 4 culpable mental states. Read it and make a self determination on what kind of case FL would have against you.

    https://cplaw-miami.com/arguing-inad...south-florida/
  • 12-17-2019, 09:46 PM
    L-1
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    I missed TWO important factors in my case. They need INTENT to steal for probable cause and sufficient evidence of a crime. Without INTENT to steal, they can't pursue the case; I'm going to get it dismissed come hell or high water.

    Good luck with that.

    Generally there are just a few elements that need to be proved to establish the elements of theft:

    1. Taking
    2. Property of another
    3. Intent to permanently deprive.

    Based solely on your own statements, you took the property of another.

    The intent to permanently deprive is established by the fact that you consumed the items and threw away the wrappers without paying for them as per normal authorized practice.

    Probable cause is established when based on the facts presented, a reasonable and prudent person believes that a crime has been committed. Again, based on the facts as you described them, I would have believed you committed a theft. As others have said, "I forgot to pay" is a common lie told by thieves when they get caught. The burden of proving that you actually forgot rests with you and not the other way around.

    I have read all you posts and the best advice I can offer is that the more you run your mouth, the more you say things that incriminate yourself. At this point you are a sinking ship that is foolishly taking on more cargo to ensure that you go under and sink quicker and deeper. Shut you mouth and hire an attorney.
  • 12-17-2019, 11:06 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Confirming That There Was No Probable Cause to Arrest
    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    1) I live at home, no kids, no car payment, no credit card payments, no medical bills, food is free at home. I made $1,350/month. No debt.

    Not at all helpful to you. This argument is basically one that says only the poor steal. That's not even remotely true. You do know that even celebrities who are millionaires have been convicted of shoplifting, right? How rich or poor you are has really no bearing on whether you stole anything.

    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    2) I'm an employee, not a customer. Employee theft is a total different scenario when it comes to INTENT and probable cause -- we work KNOWING we're being watched. With me, part of my job is to stop theft by watching the door; it's in my job description as the lead cashier in Garden Center. They HAVE to take that into consideration. My request.

    What does that prove? The fact that you know that you are being watched does not mean you didn't steal. Do you know how many people know that stores have video and other security and try stealing because they think they are more clever than the store and can hide what they are doing. The fact is that employee theft is a big problem for retailers, so obviously the fact that those employees know they might be watched doesn't deter them from committing the theft. This isn't a very strong argument for trying to negate general intent.

    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    ....so where is the intent to steal?

    If they have evidence that you consumed company products without paying for them then they have evidence that you intended to consume those goods and not pay for them. And that's pretty much all they need to make their prima facie case, i.e. to meet their initial burden of providing enough evidence to support that you committed the crime. Once the state has done that, it's up to you to present evidence and arguments to rebut what the state has put forward.

    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    Forgetting is grounds for a write-up or termination. Barely.

    You can try to argue to the jury that you simply "forgot" to pay for it if you go to trial. But let me tell you, that defense is not often a winner. A lot of shoplifters try the line that they "forgot" to pay, too, and still end up convicted. People tend not to believe those claims because that's exactly what a thief would say, too.

    As for grounds for termination, the employer may fire you for any reason at all except for a few reasons prohibited by law. The employer can fire you just for wearing green socks on a Wednesday if it wanted. Sure, that might be a stupid reason to fire someone, but legally the employer may do just that. It certainly could fire you for not paying for products you consume without paying for them regardless of the reason why you didn't pay.


    Quote:

    Quoting CoryD
    View Post
    BTW man, if I were to call corporate and say that I have been wrongly accused of theft and REQUEST A REVIEW OF THE VIDEO TAPES and DEMAND my job back, then they would probably hire me back at a 25 cent pay raise. Wal-Mart is a people-person down to earth company who takes very good care of their employees.

    I should call corporate now that I think about it. It would look good in court if Wal-Mart admits they made a mistake and apologized for wrongly accusing their hard working employee for something as hilarious as bottles of water and a bag of chips.

    Good luck with that. Go ahead and try it. I think you'll find after you make the call that you will still be unemployed.
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