My question involves criminal law for the state of: Nevada
I gave a guy $3,000 for a Toyota Prius that he said he had and he doesn't seem to have it now. He's been stringing me along for over a month now. I was relying heavily on this and have told him so many times. Is the correct action on my part to tell the guy to deliver the car and if he doesn't should I go to the police station and file a felony grand theft under false pretense? I have myself and someone else who has been present for all of this as the 2 required witnesses and if there are any doubts to our testimony I have numerous emails and texts to corroborate the story. I can also subpoena camera footage from my bank showing me withdrawing $3,000 and walking directly outside and handing him the money.
Theft by False Pretenses
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09-18-2019, 06:08 PMpat247Theft by False Pretenses
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09-18-2019, 06:23 PMjust blueRe: Theft by False PretensesHow old are you?Quote:
Quoting pat247
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09-18-2019, 06:25 PMadjusterjackRe: Theft by False PretensesYou handed over the money without the car and the title right there in front of you.Quote:
Quoting pat247
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxGgnI6kCrs
No. The correct action is go to the police station now and file the report and hope the police don't just tell you it's a civil matter.Quote:
Quoting pat247
Good for you.Quote:
Quoting pat247
After you make the police report sue him for breach of contract. You'll probably win and end up with a piece of paper that's suitable for wrapping fish or lining the hamster cage. -
09-18-2019, 08:12 PMpat247Re: Theft by False PretensesThere's a very specific theft by fraud penal code NRS 205.380 that was made just for such an occurrence. It is petty theft if under $950 or felony grand theft if over $950. To prove does not require anything in writing, just 2 witnesses. I wanted to find out more about it but I think this may be the wrong forum. For some reason I thought posters answering questions here were at least in law school.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
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09-19-2019, 08:41 AMpg1067Re: Theft by False PretensesHold on a second...Quote:
Quoting pat247
When you gave this guy $3,000, did you receive possession of the car? Your post suggests you did not. Did you receive the certificate of title signed by the "guy"? The implication seems to be that you didn't. If that's the case, why on Earth would you give someone $3,000 (cash?) for absolutely nothing in return? Did you have a signed, written agreement for the sale/purchase of the car?
Sure, but it's entirely possible that the police will tell you that it's a civil matter and that your recourse is to sue. If I'm right that you gave this guy $3,000 without getting possession of the car or a signed certificate of title, then you acted completely unreasonably, which would make a criminal prosecution very difficult.Quote:
Quoting pat247
Huh?Quote:
Quoting pat247
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09-19-2019, 05:52 PMpat247Re: Theft by False Pretenses
For some reason I thought that posters answering questions on this forum were at least in law school. I didn't think I'd be the one teaching. Well, Nevada has a penal code NRS 205.380 "theft by false pretenses" that is petty theft if under $950 or felony grand theft if over $950. It doesn't require to have anything in writing, or signed. It requires 2 witnesses just like most crimes. If you pay someone for something (that doesn't have to be right there in front of you) and they don't deliver, they can be criminally charged. I wanted to find out more about it but I think this may be the wrong forum.
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09-19-2019, 06:18 PMadjusterjackRe: Theft by False PretensesPG1067 is an attorney. If not in law school now, presumable once was.Quote:
Quoting pat247
True. Nevada does have such a statute. Here's the pertinent part:Quote:
Quoting pat247
Note the emphasized words. What "evidence" do you have of his "intent"?Quote:
NV Rev Stat § 205.380
1. A person who knowingly and designedly by any false pretense obtains from any other person any chose in action, money, goods, wares, chattels, effects or other valuable thing, including rent or the labor of another person not his or her employee, with the intent to cheat or defraud the other person, is a cheat, and, unless otherwise prescribed by law, shall be punished:
Nothing in that statute requires 2 witnesses. Nor do I know of any other criminal statute that enumerates the number of witnesses required for prosecution and/or conviction.Quote:
Quoting pat247
They can be but will they be? Two different things entirely.Quote:
Quoting pat247
You'll find out more about it when you report it to the police.Quote:
Quoting pat247
It is, if you want somebody to say: Yes, he's going to jail for "theft by false pretenses."Quote:
Quoting pat247
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09-19-2019, 06:43 PMMercy&GraceRe: Theft by False Pretenses
Do you have the person's,real name and address ? Did you see anything with proof of who he is and where he lives ? If all you have to go on is,what he told you. You might have no reliable information.
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09-20-2019, 04:55 AMpat247Re: Theft by False PretensesBased on his responses, he demonstrated a lack of understanding of the statute, if not being totally unaware of its existence, until I realized I had been looking at the Ca version of this law. So, my bad.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
That's one of the reasons I posted here is to maybe get some feedback as to what is considered evidence of intent. If he didn't "intend" to steal my money then he would either produce the car or return my money, wouldn't he? Wouldn't the intent become inherent by virtue of the outcome? There was no car. He kept the money.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
Note the words in bold from the California version of the statute which I couldn't find in the Nevada version. I guess I'm screwed.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
the defendant cannot be convicted if the false pretense was expressed in language unaccompanied by a false token or writing, unless the pretense, or some note or memorandum thereof is in writing, subscribed by or in the handwriting of the defendant, or unless the pretense is proven by the testimony of two witnesses, or that of one witness and corroborating circumstances.
That's what I was trying to discuss...Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
I wanted to find out more about it before I reported it to the police possibly wasting my time and gas.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
Not at all. I was just seeking legal advice.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
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09-20-2019, 06:10 AMPayrolGuyRe: Theft by False PretensesThere's always Art. 3 Sec. 3 of the Constitution. :friendly_wink:Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
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09-20-2019, 06:24 AMllworkingRe: Theft by False Pretenses
The fact that you have witnesses is a good thing even without that clause in the Nevada law. Go talk to the police. The worst they can do is tell you its a civil matter.
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09-20-2019, 08:57 AMpg1067Re: Theft by False PretensesFirst of all, just because the law doesn't require something to be in writing doesn't mean it's not phenomenally stupid not to get something in writing. Second, I wrote that the manner in which you apparently handled this transaction would make prosecution difficult, not impossible. That's one of the things I learned in law school many years ago and over the course of 30 years in the legal field: actually prosecuting someone and getting a conviction is a very different thing than cold analysis of a fact pattern based on a statute.Quote:
Quoting pat247
And where did you get the idea that "most crimes" require two witnesses. There's nothing in NRS 205.380 that says that. It is a fundamental principle of criminal procedure that the testimony of a single witness, if believed by the jury, may be sufficient to convict a defendant. See, e.g., Baldassarre v. Nevada, __ P.3d __ (Nev. Ct. App. 2018) ("As a matter of law, the testimony of a single witness, even if uncorroborated, is enough evidence to sustain a conviction"), citing Hutchins v. State, 110 Nev. 103, 109 (1994) ("the uncorroborated testimony of a victim, without more, is sufficient to uphold a rape conviction").Quote:
Quoting pat247
What you're describing is a breach of contract. A breach of contract, without more, is not evidence of an intent to steal.Quote:
Quoting pat247
Please review the disclaimer at the bottom of every page at this site.Quote:
Quoting pat247