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Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit

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  • 09-15-2019, 02:45 AM
    fastline
    Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    In KS

    Alrighty, I am pretty certain I know the crowd here by now and know what I will hear, but I guess maybe I will get a glimpse from the prosecution side......since I probably won't get anything helpful....:cool:

    I am not going to name the 'agency' that cited me, you will understand that part later. I was cited for speeding late in the evening. I was southbound and the officer was northbound on a 4 lane road. He flipped a U. Told me he "got me at 50 in a 40"..... I said, "a 40??? You mean 45, unless that just changed today". He said, "nope, been 40 for a long time".....LOL This went on for a while and I could tell this guy was a dick and it wouldn't matter what I say.

    However, what may have me more screwed here is my insurance 'may' have expired about 30hrs ago! It was set to renew, or so I thought, but it looks like only my other vehicle is renewing! If that is the case, I have a serious issue with my proof of ins. I did not have it with me, but in my state, not having proof with you is not a biggy, but not having insurance is a big deal... I know this!!!

    So anyway, officer writes me for 50 in a 40.... No this is not a 'clerical error', he wrote the fine and everything. However, this is 100% NOT debatable, and I confirmed it both directions as soon as I was done with him. It is plainly marked 45MPH and I can guarantee that officer did not make it .25mi without realizing his mistake. There were actually numerous mistakes, and ones that make me cringe because I honestly have a gut feeling this is the type of cop that gives others a bad name. He quoted things from statute that I know are not accurate and I already affirmed that. He also quote "diversion fees for me" which were so far off, it makes me wonder if was even a cop....

    Now, because of the Inet, I won't go into detail, but I know the top dog with this officer's agency personally. I don't like to call in favors but if I can't get this rinsed off due to a very obvious "reading problem", how does this case look either pleading before the DA, or just taking it to trial?

    My issue with bringing up speed discrepancy to the DA, is they will just request another citation written, to reflect my speeding of 5MPH over. I will of course be convicted even though they all know its a screw job. But, if I hold that card until trial and submit my articles of evidence and obtain a witness, I would like to ensure the cop's misunderstanding of the speed limit get on the record.

    I realize the legal system likes to make light of this, but people finances, freedoms, and rights are violated when cops screw up. I don't find it cool at all to be the ass of a "bad ticket". If the cops was white, he would call and at least amend the ticket, but I bet he just leaves er be and nabs him another one.
  • 09-15-2019, 05:34 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    The charge is not 50 in 40 or 50 in 45. It was that you were going faster than the posted, safe, or maximum speed (depending on just what he cited you for). Even if there is an error, he doesn't need to write a new ticket. You'll be found guilty by your own incriminating statement. Even if you were written up for the posted speed violation, there's no difference in Kansas for 5 or 10 over.
  • 09-15-2019, 07:43 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Fastline, your attitude towards law enforcement sucks and I'll bet it was you being a dick during the traffic stop.

    If you don't want to man up and pay the fine I suggest you plead not guilty, go to court with your pictures of speed limit signs, insist that you were doing 45 and that the officer's testimony is questionable because he didn't know what the speed limit was.

    Leave your attitude outside the courtroom and you might just get out from under this.

    As for your insurance, if you weren't cited for no insurance, the subject might not come up.
  • 09-15-2019, 09:08 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Quote:

    Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    Fastline, your attitude towards law enforcement sucks and I'll bet it was you being a dick during the traffic stop.

    Well put, and since he expects to get nothing helpful, I don't want him to be disappointed so I won't comment on his situation.
  • 09-15-2019, 12:16 PM
    jk
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Quote:

    Quoting fastline
    View Post
    In KS

    Alrighty, I am pretty certain I know the crowd here by now and know what I will hear, but I guess maybe I will get a glimpse from the prosecution side......since I probably won't get anything helpful....:cool:

    I am not going to name the 'agency' that cited me, you will understand that part later. I was cited for speeding late in the evening. I was southbound and the officer was northbound on a 4 lane road. He flipped a U. Told me he "got me at 50 in a 40"..... I said, "a 40??? You mean 45, unless that just changed today". He said, "nope, been 40 for a long time".....LOL This went on for a while and I could tell this guy was a dick and it wouldn't matter what I say.

    However, what may have me more screwed here is my insurance 'may' have expired about 30hrs ago! It was set to renew, or so I thought, but it looks like only my other vehicle is renewing! If that is the case, I have a serious issue with my proof of ins. I did not have it with me, but in my state, not having proof with you is not a biggy, but not having insurance is a big deal... I know this!!!

    So anyway, officer writes me for 50 in a 40.... No this is not a 'clerical error', he wrote the fine and everything. However, this is 100% NOT debatable, and I confirmed it both directions as soon as I was done with him. It is plainly marked 45MPH and I can guarantee that officer did not make it .25mi without realizing his mistake. There were actually numerous mistakes, and ones that make me cringe because I honestly have a gut feeling this is the type of cop that gives others a bad name. He quoted things from statute that I know are not accurate and I already affirmed that. He also quote "diversion fees for me" which were so far off, it makes me wonder if was even a cop....

    Now, because of the Inet, I won't go into detail, but I know the top dog with this officer's agency personally. I don't like to call in favors but if I can't get this rinsed off due to a very obvious "reading problem", how does this case look either pleading before the DA, or just taking it to trial?

    My issue with bringing up speed discrepancy to the DA, is they will just request another citation written, to reflect my speeding of 5MPH over. I will of course be convicted even though they all know its a screw job. But, if I hold that card until trial and submit my articles of evidence and obtain a witness, I would like to ensure the cop's misunderstanding of the speed limit get on the record.

    I realize the legal system likes to make light of this, but people finances, freedoms, and rights are violated when cops screw up. I don't find it cool at all to be the ass of a "bad ticket". If the cops was white, he would call and at least amend the ticket, but I bet he just leaves er be and nabs him another one.

    You were speeding

    the only benefit the cops error will make is if you can win by challenging his powers of observation. If he used a smd, that removes challenging his ability to measure speed by his own observance. Unless you can challenge him based on he pulled over the wrong car, I don’t see a winning argument.


    The incorrect speed limit on the ticket not get you a win no matter when you choose to reveal it. If you cannot dispute your measured speed, you arguing the speed limit was 45 instead of 40 doesn’t get you out of the ticket. It is simply 50/45 instead of 50/40. No difference in the penalty.
  • 09-15-2019, 12:42 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    I wonder if Kansas allows a "reasonable and prudent" defense. 5 miles over is often ignored.
  • 09-15-2019, 01:08 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    There may be a slightly higher amount of uncertainty involved as well. Assuming an active radar unit synced with the officer's speedometer was used there will be increased amount of uncertainty than there would be with a stationary unit because there's uncertainty associated with both the speedometer measurement and the radar measurement. Not sure whether or not it would total 5mph or not but it is something to consider if this type of equipment was used. .
  • 09-15-2019, 01:14 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Actually, he does have one reason to argue it was only 5 over. Speeding tickets for under 6 MPH over the limit, while having the same fine, are not considered "moving violations." Kansas doesn't have a point system per se, three moving violations in a year will yield a suspension.
  • 09-15-2019, 03:33 PM
    fastline
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    ^ yes sir, 8-1560c. speed limits under 55mph are granted a 6mph buffer for non-moving violation.

    Admittedly, I was pretty torqued last night. I know pretty much all officers around here use a 10mph buffer, regardless of speed limit.

    I did not admit to speeding. However, I did not argue because I know there is never any point in that and I could tell the cop was going to write me before we started. I was out later in the evening and they are looking to write DUIs.

    Unless I can confirm I have some form of insurance coverage, that I will have to confirm tomorrow, it appears my insurance was expired a whole 23hrs....... I do have a renewal for an auto that renewed on 9/13 and I made that assumption it was for the auto in question. Yes, he did write for the insurance.

    Also, I happened to look at the diversion form and was surprised that it asks for all criminal arrests, convicted or not, and traffic citations, guilty or not. I don't see how that is in any way legal, but......

    The officer was moving but there is no mention how the speed was obtained. I have read that should be included on a citation but I cannot find that in statute. I know for certain a vehicle cannot maintain speedometer accuracy due to heat in tires that causes diametrical variation, and the variable tread depth that also causes diametrical variables. This is the whole reason for the buffer.

    I realize much information online is given on proper calibration and documentation of the radar used, but I have heard from attorneys that this calibration is an easy lie for the cop on the stand. They say they did, and we all know cops don't lie so that is the end of it.

    I guess my only real argue point is "reasonable doubt". If the cop was not even aware of the speed limit, how can we be certain he clocked me correctly?
  • 09-15-2019, 06:57 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    You'll get nowhere arguing you're entitled to a buffer.
    No obligation of speed method appears required in your state, though you can certainly ask in discovery.

    That's not how reasonable doubt works. And your atittude indicates you are emotionally ill-disposed to conduct a defense.
  • 09-15-2019, 07:21 PM
    fastline
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    I didn't say I was "entitled to a buffer", I simply mentioned that there are inaccuracies that go beyond just the tuning of a radar gun, thus the reason for buffers to be in place.
  • 09-16-2019, 01:30 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Quote:

    Quoting fastline
    View Post
    I didn't say I was "entitled to a buffer", I simply mentioned that there are inaccuracies that go beyond just the tuning of a radar gun, thus the reason for buffers to be in place.

    But you're still inventing a concept that doesn't exist. There is no requirement for a "buffer."
  • 09-16-2019, 03:15 AM
    B.Frank
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    In any measurement anyone has ever conducted there was some amount of uncertainty involved. If I use a glass measuring cup to measure a cup of water I'll know I have about 1 cup but the uncertainty in this measurement may be +- 5 tbs, if I use a graduated cylinder it may be +- 1 tbs, if I use a very accurate and precise scale it weight the water and then calculate it's volume it may be +- .1 Tbs but never can I be entirely certain that I am measuring exactly 1 cup of water. It's simply impossible to do. What's important is that the measured value and its uncertainty is acceptable for the situation.

    The NHTSA requires that the uncertainty of a stationary speed measuring device is at most +1 mph and -2 mph.

    If the officer used a moving radar unit, the unit relied on both the speedometer measurement of the vehicle and the radar measurement of the radar. Uncertainty is exacerbated when a measurement relies on more than one measurement device. Speedometers can inherently become less accurate since they are based on the rpm of the drive train and the circumference of the tire. The circumference of a tire can change quite dramatically during its service life. I would estimate the speedometer in an average car over the life of a set of tires to be +-2 mph or potentially more. This code requires that buses have a speedometer that is accurate to a range of +- 5 mph. A recently calibrated police unit may have an uncertainty that is significantly less.


    This uncertainty will create the "buffer" fastline is talking about because it casts doubt on the officers contention that the defendant was traveling exactly 40 mph. How large this amount is I do not know, the defendant would have to research it but the judge will likely have their own idea of this in their head. Which may or may not be enough to warrant an acquittal or dismissal. I mean surely if one was given a citation for 1 mph over most judges would dismiss it right?
  • 09-16-2019, 06:06 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Moving radar units do not rely on the car's speedometer. They compute the unit's speed itself along with the difference between the target. And so NHTSA says "don't use a radar if it's not with 1 mph for stationary or 2 for moving" but that doesn't say that this is what the accuracy is determined to be, but most units are within a mph either way, and that's not going to mandate a six or ten mile per hour buffer.

    You are missing the point that the is not charged at 40 MPH. He is charged at 50 in what appears to be (based on the poster's statement) of either a 45 or 50 zone. That's way more than is required for even the NHTSA-compliant radar units or even pacing require (we're talking about 11% over the limit).
  • 09-16-2019, 11:32 AM
    zeljo
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Fastline, can you please post the statute for which you were written up.

    Based on the location of the incident, which should be on the ticket and to which the cop will also have to testify, Google photos and your own photos, you should be able to prove the speed limit was 45, and not 40, so at least you shouldn't get a moving violation.

    As for the insurance, just renew it ASAP and bring proof with you to the trial (proof that you have it, not proof of when you extended it). Hopefully the judge will not insist on whether you had it at the time and will just assume you just didn't have the proof with you. If he asks you point blank if you had it at the time. I guess you'll have to admit you didn't. In that case, proving you only hadn't had it for 23 hours should be helpful, which is why I told you to renew it ASAP.
  • 09-16-2019, 11:55 AM
    fastline
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    8-1558 is the cited statute. Because I drive this road daily, I verified it again yesterday. Not only is is posted 3 TIMES, there is literally a 45 sign 500ft from where I was cited. There is no question on that matter.

    As for the insurance, I am waiting for my insurance guy to call me to verify this.

    OK, I did verify I HAD insurance! That is a relief!
  • 09-16-2019, 02:27 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    This is even more confusing. You're cited for a maximum speed law for which neither 40 nor 45 apply. What was the exact address so we can look at it in google maps.
  • 09-16-2019, 03:59 PM
    Guybrush
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    pppffftttt….

    The cop had difficulty reading numbers - the evidence exists that supports that. He saw 45 on the speed limit sign but read 40. The cop was not operating effectively. Obviously when he saw 50 on the radar, he must have misread that as well. Argue that the cop needs new glasses....
  • 09-16-2019, 04:09 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Quote:

    Quoting Guybrush
    View Post
    pppffftttt….

    The cop had difficulty reading numbers - the evidence exists that supports that. He saw 45 on the speed limit sign but read 40. The cop was not operating effectively. Obviously when he saw 50 on the radar, he must have misread that as well. Argue that the cop needs new glasses....

    You won't get anywhere with that line of argument. The question is why he was written up for being in excess of maximum speed at 50MPH unless this was an urban street.
  • 09-16-2019, 04:49 PM
    fastline
    Re: Officer Does Not Know the Speed Limit
    Something that has always bugged me, and really should bug every American and attorney, is how the government has enacted their own power to amend complaints on the fly. Even when I walk into to trial refuting the evidence, which is what is on the citation, the prosecutor will just say, "your honor, I would like to amend this complaint to this".... The judge asks if I object, and of course I do. The just cares none, overrules my objection, and they can just tune it up how they want.

    This day in age is pretty sad that cops can do shoddy work that affects people's lives, and the government simply accept that "everyone makes mistakes"...... Tell that to the victims.........

    I am on a light deal here but but honestly, the cop can't 'reed guud', and doesn't even know the statute he is enforcing, but it matters none. If I was that bad at my job, I wouldn't have one.
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