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What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC

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  • 09-03-2019, 10:16 AM
    FirstCited
    What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California, driving on Highway 65 Southbound.
    Early afternoon under good visibility conditions, straight stretch of highway going uphill with only 2 cars ahead of me, driving toward the same direction i decided to pass the first car as it pulled to the right on a portion of highway with 2 lanes. Then i noted the lanes merging again into one and slowed down as i could not have passed the second car ahead of me...only to realize this car was a CHP and to my dismay it slowed down and started pulling on the side of the road ... i slowed down even more as i didn’t know what to do and why was the CHP pulling off the highway, when the CHP car was completely off the road i passed it only to notice in my rear mirror that CHP car pulled back on the road and had it’s swirling lights on. At this point i immediately signaled and pulled off the road and waited in the car. The officer came, knocked on passenger window and stated that i was pulled over for speeding and requested my dl, registration and proof of insurance. I provided the requested documentation no questions asked as this was my first ever time to be pulled over by law enforcement in my 20 years of driving and was in a bit of shock ... when he came back to the car he presented me with a citation and asked me to sign it ... by this time my initial anxiety of being pulled over had passed and asked him what did i do wrong as i have never ever been pulled over before. Officer stated i was driving 77 mph on a 55 mph highway ... i confess i do not know exactly at what speed i was cruising, it felt as i was going with the flow ... i had never been on that highway before, mostly drove around LA County freeways my whole life before this outing to the North.
    Anyhow my question is what can i do as i do not want this ticket to mess up my driving record or impact my insurance rates and the court where i have to present myself is about 170 miles away from my home ?
    Thank you for any suggestions in helping out a first offender !
  • 09-03-2019, 11:51 AM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Going with the flow is not a defense. Road conditions do not alter the maximum limits in 22349.

    If you have not done so the past 18 months, your best option, given your concerns (maintaining record, avoiding returning to the county you were cited), would be to avail yourself of the traffic school provision.
    Such is frequently offered when the courtesy notice is sent. If they don't (or you don't get the courtesy notice, which is as it says just a courtesy, not a requirement), you can contact the court and inquire. You should however make sure that you either resolve this or appear before the date on your citation.

    The traffic school option has you pay the fine plus an additional ($52 last I checked) fee. You also have to pay the tuition at the school you attend. Then when the results are reported, the court will not enter a conviction and your DMV record will remain intact and your insurance carrier won't know.
  • 09-03-2019, 11:54 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    See if you can take traffic school and keep it off your record. 22 over, I have my doubts. You can spend a thousand or two on a lawyer or just bite the bullet and pay the fine. You'll be stuck with an insurance surcharge for three years until it drops off. It happens. I went almost 20 years without a blemish until one day backed out of a parking space and clipped a car going by. Three years of higher rates and I survived. So will you.

    (I wrote that before seeing flyingron's comment. Take traffic school if you can get it. You might be able to take it online instead of going to a class.)

    From now on set your cruise control, pay attention, and have patience. You'll get where you are going without passing other vehicles.
  • 09-03-2019, 11:59 AM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    The threshold is more than 25 over. He's likely to be able to do traffic school.
  • 09-03-2019, 02:34 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    ...Then when the results are reported, the court will not enter a conviction and your DMV record will remain intact and your insurance carrier won't know.

    Cal. Veh. Code § 41501(a) Chaptered (Stats.2010 Ch.216) States: "The court may order a continuance of a proceeding against a person, who receives a notice to appear in court for a violation of a statute relating to the safe operation of a vehicle, in consideration for attendance at a licensed school for traffic violators, a licensed driving school, or any other court-approved program of driving instruction, and, after that attendance and pursuant to Section 1803.5 or 42005, the court may dismiss the complaint..."

    In 2011 this code section was amended as follows: "After a deposit of bail and bail forfeiture, a plea of guilty or no contest, or a conviction, the court may order a continuance of a proceeding... the court may order that the conviction be held confidential by the department according to Section 1808.7."

    Although the 2010 version of this statute appears to make traffic school a pre-judgment diversion program by allowing the dismissal of the charges after successful completion of traffic school, the 2011 version removed it from that category. The current version made two major changes. First, it made traffic school available only under specific circumstances; 1) After a deposit of bail and bail forfeiture, 2) a plea of guilty or no contest, and 3) a conviction. Two of the three options, bail forfeiture and a conviction, would require the entry of a judgment and therefore preclude traffic school as a pre-judgment diversion program. Second, this current version has also removed the option for the court to dismiss the charges. VC § 1803.5(a) states the successful completion of traffic school "results in a designation of the conviction as confidential."
  • 09-03-2019, 10:19 PM
    FirstCited
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Thank you all for your reply !
    If i understand correctly, i should follow up with the court and find out if i am eligible for traffic school, pay the fine and complete the school before court date and then my driving record will not be impacted. Is this right?
  • 09-04-2019, 02:46 AM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting FirstCited
    it pulled to the right on a portion of highway with 2 lanes. Then i noted the lanes merging again

    Can you post the exact location from google earth? This will allow us to verify the maximum was indeed 55 and not 65.

    Quote:

    Quoting FirstCited
    my question is what can i do as i do not want this ticket to mess up my driving record or impact my insurance rates and the court where i have to present myself is about 170 miles away from my home ?

    If making an appearance in court is not an option, instead of what has already been recommended, you could choose to contest the citation with a Trial By Written Declaration. If the officer fails to write his declaration, omits an element, or you write a compelling defense the matter would be dismissed and you would not owe anything. Should you lose there are very high odds you will still be able to attend traffic school. While it's technically possible, I'm not sure I've ever heard of someone losing this ability with a TBWD.

    You can also request in your trial by written declaration, that should you be found guilty, you be assessed a lower fine.

    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    The threshold is more than 25 over.

    Per court rule that is the threshold for the clerk. Per state law, a judge can allow traffic school for virtually any 1 point infraction including for a violation which was 26 or more over.
  • 09-04-2019, 06:09 AM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    You can also request in your trial by written declaration, that should you be found guilty, you be assessed a lower fine.
    I've never heard of this working. You're free to request it but most courts only have two buttons on their TBD: not guilty, return bail (uncommon) and guilty, bail forfeited.

    However, that doesn't give him the outcome he's requesting.
  • 09-04-2019, 09:51 AM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting FirstCited
    View Post
    Thank you all for your reply !
    If i understand correctly, i should follow up with the court and find out if i am eligible for traffic school, pay the fine and complete the school before court date and then my driving record will not be impacted. Is this right?

    Correct. You will likely be given more time than your court date to complete the traffic school... you just have to pay the fine before that date. You can do traffic school online for next to nothing. Just call the court.
  • 09-04-2019, 10:14 AM
    LegalWriter
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    You will get a courtesy notice in the mail which will tell you if you are eligible for traffic school. You can request it using the form enclosed with payment of the bail amount. Make sure you complete it. If you aren't eligible, then you can request a trial by declaration rather than appear in person. I've driven that road. There aren't a lot of speed limit signs because it's a rural state route and the max speed is 55 from end to end.
  • 09-04-2019, 12:27 PM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Speed limit signs aren't required. That's what 22349 is all about. You aren't allowed to exceed 55 whether it is posted or not.
  • 09-04-2019, 09:57 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    I've never heard of this working. You're free to request it but most courts only have two buttons on their TBD: not guilty, return bail (uncommon) and guilty, bail forfeited.

    As long as you do so respectfully, it does not hurt to ask.

    With my TBWD the Judge manually filled out a TR-215 form. All of the information, including the fine amount assessed, was clearly manually typed in or at minimum editable by the Judge. Section 3(a) of that form can be whatever the Judge feels, up to the allowable maximum. There was an additional computer system print out that I got when my bail was refunded (at trial) which was the court generated docket/minutes that had the bail posted and a space to input any fee the judge chooses followed by 3 blank lines for an explanation if necessary. I would imagine the court uses this same computer system for TBWD and trial. Is a fine that is less than the bail uncommon, yes probably, but the court certainly has the "button" or capability to do it and I do not think it's much of an inconvenience for just one case. I imagine it's uncommon mostly because nobody asks for it. The bail and penalty amounts in the uniform schedule are maximum amounts and the court has the authority to lower these at their own discretion.

    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    However, that doesn't give him the outcome he's requesting.

    It addresses the "what is the best thing to do"? part.

    In summary my answer is:
    -TBWD
    -Make a respectfully but compelling argument
    -Ask for traffic school and a fine reduction if you lose
    - Do not do Trial de Novo

    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    Speed limit signs aren't required. That's what 22349 is all about. You aren't allowed to exceed 55 whether it is posted or not.

    Take another look at 22349. The maximum speed limit is normally 65 mph unless posted as 70. It is 55 mph in specific circumstances. The highway the OP was cited on has many portions that have a 65mph maximum.
  • 09-05-2019, 07:37 AM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    It addresses the "what is the best thing to do"? part.

    In summary my answer is:
    -TBWD
    -Make a respectfully but compelling argument
    -Ask for traffic school and a fine reduction if you lose
    - Do not do Trial de Novo

    Alas, it does not. His goal was to maximize his chances of NOT having the ticket on his record and NOT appear in the remote court. His best option given his goals is to jump on traffic school as soon as it is available to him.
    Your solution won't work. The only option after losing the TBWD is to ask for a Trial De Novo. Then you might get traffic school.

    Quote:

    Take another look at 22349. The maximum speed limit is normally 65 mph unless posted as 70. It is 55 mph in specific circumstances. The highway the OP was cited on has many portions that have a 65mph maximum.
    Say what? No, I am quite familiar with it. If you are an undivided highway, the maximum is 55. His description fits with him being on an undivided highway and there is no section of HWY 65 in southern California that is divided (though it's not clear where he was exactly because there's no Highway 65 in LA County. Its southernmost point is in Bakersfield).
  • 09-05-2019, 11:51 AM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    In summary my answer is:
    -TBWD
    -Make a respectfully but compelling argument
    -Ask for traffic school and a fine reduction if you lose
    - Do not do Trial de Novo

    Note that if you do TBWD and lose, you will almost certainly not get traffic school, no matter what you say in the statement. You will have to either request Trial de Novo and then ask for it, if you lose, or ask to be re-arraigned so you can get before a judge and request traffic school. In both of these options, you'd have to actually go to court which, in O/Ps case is a 170 drive that I assume he doesn't want to do.
  • 09-05-2019, 12:11 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    Note that if you do TBWD and lose, you will almost certainly not get traffic school

    I am curious what courts are doing this. I've never once heard of this. I was offered traffic school after losing my TBWD. If there are courts doing this consistently to every TBWD, this practice is certainly unethical and likely unlawful.(Wozniak)
  • 09-06-2019, 10:33 AM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    I am curious what courts are doing this. I've never once heard of this. I was offered traffic school after losing my TBWD. If there are courts doing this consistently to every TBWD, this practice is certainly unethical and likely unlawful.(Wozniak)

    How exactly were you offered traffic school after losing trial by written declaration? It's not that they per se deny it; it's just that the outcome of TBWD is either win or lose. In the latter case, they take your bail, and that's it. You are mailed the judge's decision... it's a form letter, with no option to go to traffic school, like there is on the initial courtesy notice.
  • 09-06-2019, 11:30 AM
    flyingron
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    There's no option after a TBD decision but to live with it or request a TDN. Once you make the latter request, you can try again for traffic school. Once the TDN is filed, your conviction is again on hold. The law provides for no other option on the court's part.
  • 09-06-2019, 05:48 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    There's no option after a TBD decision but to live with it or request a TDN. Once you make the latter request, you can try again for traffic school. Once the TDN is filed, your conviction is again on hold. The law provides for no other option on the court's part.

    A conviction after a TBD is no different legally from a conviction after a court trial. Vehicle Code §41501(a) states:
    "After a deposit of bail and bail forfeiture, a plea of guilty or no contest, or a conviction, the court may order a continuance of a proceeding against a person, who receives a notice to appear in court for a violation of a statute relating to the safe operation of a vehicle, in consideration for successful completion of a course of instruction at a licensed school for traffic violators"

    There is no need for OP to request a TDN. A conviction was entered and California Rules of Court Rule 4.104(c)(2) states:
    "A defendant who is otherwise eligible for traffic violator school is not made ineligible by entering a plea other than guilty or by exercising his or her right to trial. A traffic violator school request must be considered based on the individual circumstances of the specific case."

    A court's discretion to grant or deny a request for traffic violator school cannot encompass a blanket refusal to permit traffic school to all defendants who requested traffic school after TBD. OP just needs to call the court and request traffic school and, if otherwise eligible, it should be granted.
  • 09-06-2019, 06:43 PM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting Jim Kozlovich
    View Post
    A court's discretion to grant or deny a request for traffic violator school cannot encompass a blanket refusal to permit traffic school to all defendants who requested traffic school after TBD. OP just needs to call the court and request traffic school and, if otherwise eligible, it should be granted.

    I'd be very curious to see how that turns out. At that time O/P would have been convicted, trial over. I don't think the traffic court clerk can give him traffic school at that point; he'd have to see a judge. Hence my earlier response 10:51am 9/5. If O/P decides to go for TBD, he better be ready to drive to show up before a judge if he loses that and wants traffic school.

    Incidentally, chances of him winning this particular TBD are slim and none, coming down to hoping the officer doesn't submit his statement. Thus, his sole and only good option is to plead guilty via mail and ask for traffic school.
  • 09-06-2019, 07:06 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    View Post
    I'd be very curious to see how that turns out. At that time O/P would have been convicted, trial over.

    If you want to see how it turns out see People v. Wozniak (1987) 197 Cal.App.3d Supp 43, 45.
  • 09-07-2019, 12:39 AM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    How exactly were you offered traffic school after losing trial by written declaration?

    The clerk had already offered me traffic school on my original courtesy notice. The Commissioner who ruled on my case was moot on the point, therefore I was still allowed to attend. The clerk's certificate of mailing that came along with the Commissioners decision of the TBWD included instructions about what I needed to do and when I needed to do it by if I wanted to attend traffic school. I was given 32 days after mailing of the TBWD decision and clerks certificate of mailing to submit a check for $70.

    I wrote a pretty compelling TBWD and in the decision the Comissioner wrote a very long paragraph explaining his reasoning and orders. He could have easily denied traffic school in this section (section 6. of TR-215), he did not.

    Had the clerk been moot on the point in the certificate of mailing or attached thereto I believe a defendant should still be able to attend. They would obviously just have to speak with the clerk about it.

    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    It's not that they per se deny it

    Yup, exactly.

    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    There's no option after a TBD decision but to live with it or request a TDN

    nope, if traffic school has been offered by the clerk and it has not been expressly denied by the judge, I can not imagine the clerk being in a position to deny or rescind the offer. (see wozniak and the law cited above for why)

    This is why I believe every defendant should submit, at minimum, a TBWD. There's very little to lose unless the judge specifically orders you ineligible to attend traffic school in his written decision.(very unlikely)
  • 09-10-2019, 02:17 PM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    This is why I believe every defendant should submit, at minimum, a TBWD. There's very little to lose unless the judge specifically orders you ineligible to attend traffic school in his written decision.(very unlikely)

    And that's where you're wrong. You had a very good experience in your case, but this is not necessarily the norm. I have myself received TBD decision notices where judges find you guilty without explaining anything. Sometimes they do, yes. However, in my experience (which is about 3 or 4 times), the TBD decision notice did not offer me a traffic school option. You were lucky. Thus, you have to be careful when advising similar approach to folks here. If they're ready to go to court to get their traffic school, it matters not: the law is on their side and they will likely get it. But if they can't go to court, for whatever reason (too far, for example) ,they may not be able to get it after TBD. This is something to be aware of when picking your strategy to fight the ticket.
  • 09-12-2019, 06:20 PM
    FirstCited
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    According to ticket the location is listed as 65 S/B N 56, beat 37, area 481.
  • 09-12-2019, 10:58 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    the TBD decision notice did not offer me a traffic school option...you have to be careful when advising similar approach to folks here. If they're ready to go to court to get their traffic school, it matters not: the law is on their side and they will likely get it. But if they can't go to court, for whatever reason (too far, for example) ,they may not be able to get it after TBD. This is something to be aware of when picking your strategy to fight the ticket

    I believe you and generally agree with your reasoning here but it should be said that courts are not supposed to be doing this. It is an unethical, illegal practice. If traffic school is offered by the clerk, you contest your citation in any manner (TBWD or trial) and the judge does not rescind traffic school in his sentence or by order, the clerk can not choose to rescind the offer. They are not in a position to make that type of decision. The issue is exacerbated if the clerk has been instructed to deny all TBWD defendants. What a shame.

    Did you call the court and attempt to attend traffic school anyways or are you just assuming that it was denied because they were moot on the point?
  • 09-13-2019, 11:31 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    I believe you and generally agree with your reasoning here but it should be said that courts are not supposed to be doing this. It is an unethical, illegal practice. If traffic school is offered by the clerk, you contest your citation in any manner (TBWD or trial) and the judge does not rescind traffic school in his sentence or by order, the clerk can not choose to rescind the offer. They are not in a position to make that type of decision. The issue is exacerbated if the clerk has been instructed to deny all TBWD defendants. What a shame.

    What you need to understand is that if you are going to contest the citation, neither the clerk nor the judge can grant traffic school until you are convicted after a trial, whether it be a TBD or a court trial. Vehicle Code 41501(a) is very specific regarding this issue stating:

    "After a deposit of bail and bail forfeiture, a plea of guilty or no contest, or a conviction, the court may order a continuance of a proceeding against a person, who receives a notice to appear in court for a violation of a statute relating to the safe operation of a vehicle, in consideration for successful completion of a course of instruction at a licensed school for traffic violators…"
    [emphasis added]

    California Rules of Court, Rule 4.104(b)(1) gives the clerk the authority to grant traffic school under the provisions of VC 41501(a) stating:

    "a court clerk is authorized to grant a request to attend traffic violator school when a defendant with a valid driver's license requests to attend an 8-hour traffic violator school under Vehicle Code sections 41501(a)…"

    Neither the Vehicle Code nor the CRC allow either the clerk or the judge (Commissioner) the authority to grant traffic school if you enter a not guilty plea, thus, before a conviction is entered.
  • 09-13-2019, 10:03 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Good point.

    This leads me to two questions:

    1. Do you think it would be an abuse of discretion by the court and not governed by legal rules to do justice according to law for the clerk to deny, upon direction from a judge or another official of the court, the ability to attend traffic school to all TBWD defendants who receive a guilty conviction and were not otherwise ordered or denied traffic school by the judge?

    2. In Wozniak it says; " If the trial judge believes that a defendant's circumstances indicate that a defendant would benefit from attending school, such attendance should be authorized." If a defendant specifically asks for the ability to attend traffic school in his TBWD, does the Judge have a duty to rule on this or can he be moot on the point in his ruling?
  • 09-14-2019, 10:11 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    I would suggest you read California Rules of Court, Rule 4.104 Procedures and eligibility criteria for attending traffic violator school. Pay particular attention to subsection (c) Judicial discretion and the Advisory Committee Comments on the bottom of the page.
  • 09-15-2019, 12:56 PM
    B.Frank
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    I have read and understand that court rule, I am curious what your interpretation is.

    If a defendant asks for traffic school in his TBWD, do you believe the judge is required to make a ruling on this request or is it acceptable to ignore it?
  • 09-15-2019, 05:42 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting B.Frank
    View Post
    If a defendant asks for traffic school in his TBWD, do you believe the judge is required to make a ruling on this request or is it acceptable to ignore it?

    I would say the answer to your question is no the judge isn't required to make a ruling; your eligibility is determined by your specific case. If you are otherwise eligible for traffic school the judge doesn't need to specifically state in his decision that you can attend traffic school and the clerk can still authorize it. If, for example, you were cited for doing >25 mph over the speed limit which makes you presumptively ineligible for traffic school and the court thinks you would benefit from traffic school then this determination would need to be in the judges' decision, if not the clerk cannot authorize traffic school and you don't get it.
  • 09-15-2019, 06:15 PM
    badinhlawfirm
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    can you tell my how to post to forum? thank you very much!
  • 09-16-2019, 11:17 AM
    zeljo
    Re: What is the Best Thing to Do After Being Cited 22349 B VC
    Quote:

    Quoting badinhlawfirm
    View Post
    can you tell my how to post to forum? thank you very much!

    Go to the forum home page, then click on the "Post New Thread" button.
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