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Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated

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  • 07-16-2019, 10:51 AM
    quantumn
    Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    My question involves labor and employment law for the state of: Washington

    I was hired in June by a large consulting firm as a Senior Technologist, Cloud Security. My first engagement was last week at a large client.

    The manager of our group of four drove us daily from the hotel to client site as a carpool. Early on (Mon, Tue) he told us that next week he'll try the Renaissance Hotel rather than the Westin we were in. He said that if we want to move to the Renaissance too we should use the discount code 'JCP', for JC Penny he said. Well I don't know whether JC Penny is a firm client, but they certainly had nothing to do with this engagement, so I said "I don't like that." Meaning I don't like falsely using a discount code because its discount is larger than our firm's discount code. Everybody heard.

    From then on he was very brusque with me. Sharp, and a little scary. As the week went on I got no assignments. On Thursday in the carpool he told us he's trying to hire eight more people but can't find qualified candidates. He said "there are lots of senior people but I don't want senior people. I'm looking for junior people, but they don't want to travel." I didn't say anything.

    I've just turned 65 and he knew it. By 'senior' I don't know whether he was referring to capabilities, or age, but decided to decide that he wasn't referring to me.

    He and I parted amicably at the airport and flew home Thursday. Friday I got an email from his boss saying that I was not to log any more time on that client nor do any more work for them. IOW, don't come back. I acknowledged and asked if I'd done something wrong? No response.

    So I emailed my boss (who was not on that engagement), explaining all of the above. My boss is a good man and seeing a potential Equal Employment Opportunity issue, forwarded it all to HR. HR called me at 5:30am yesterday morning and asked me to describe my view of all this, and I did. She assured me it is 'no big deal'.

    Then yesterday afternoon my boss set up an emergency conference call with me and HR, where he fired me. HR said that not just that manager at the engagement said I do not have the capability to perform, but also his boss (the engagement chief and a friend of the manager) said that. And I responded, "So I point out dishonesty, and -I- get fired?" She said no, it's a PERFORMANCE issue. Well my boss hired me because he'd seen and understood my prior work, and for this company I'd begun a first-of-its-kind Cloud Security Framework slidedeck which is a precise description of securing client clouds to Cloud Security Alliance's and NSA's standards. This could have been used by any of the company's consultants with minimal experience to effectively secure client systems. Since I didn't get any assignments on the engagement, I worked on this.

    Anyway, that manager was spreading hate about be behind the scenes the whole time we were there, due to my complaining about his falsely recommending the discount code. And he openly said that he is not hiring senior people, in front of me and two other consultants.

    Is there anything I can do about this? At my age no one is likely to ever hire me again, at least in the field where I have 22 years' high-level experience. It's easy to look up anyone's age for free on Intelius. Before this job I'd spent two years applying, getting screening calls, and never callbacks presumably because as they checked further found my age.

    My boss wasn't the problem here, the engagement manager was. What am I going to do?
  • 07-16-2019, 12:08 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Since you described yourself in at the beginning of your post as "Senior Technologist" I don't see why you would leap to the assumption when the manager used the terms, Senior and Junior you would assume that it had anything to do with your age.
  • 07-16-2019, 12:42 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Did I do that?

    Any chance of unemployment?

    Is there any legal recourse?
  • 07-16-2019, 12:47 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    Did I do that?

    Any chance of unemployment?

    Is there any legal recourse?

    Sure go file. You got fired and it doesn't seem like they have any misconduct to base a UI disqualification on. A bad hire is on them not you.
  • 07-16-2019, 01:07 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post

    Any chance of unemployment?

    File ASAP. It's not retroactive so the longer you wait the more you lose.

    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post

    Is there any legal recourse?

    Realistically, probably not. But couldn't hurt to file a claim with the EEOC anyway.
  • 07-16-2019, 01:10 PM
    eerelations
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    Did I do that?

    The first line of your first post (bolding mine):

    "I was hired in June by a large consulting firm as a Senior Technologist, Cloud Security. My first engagement was last week at a large client."
  • 07-16-2019, 01:23 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Thanks Jack. Turns out I must have worked at least 4 months for UE, and I have only one.

    I've tried an EEOC complaint on another company several years ago where the manager fired me, effectively for being a freemason. But none of my colleagues would testify that he said the things he did. I'm suspicioning the same would happen here.

    And PayrolGuy I guess you don't realize how devastating something like this is to someone's life, especially when I was doing what they told us to in onboarding -- See something, Say something. I was the honest one. And not a bad hire, just in an unfortunate situation. I did everything I could to mend fences with this guy but nothing worked. He thought I was going to report him for dishonesty, but actually I wasn't, until he attacked.

    Quote:

    Quoting eerelations
    View Post
    The first line of your first post (bolding mine):

    "I was hired in June by a large consulting firm as a Senior Technologist, Cloud Security. My first engagement was last week at a large client."

    No, I was asking if I had equated the manager's remark about bypassing senior people to excluding me for age. (Hint for the ironic-blind: No I did not.)
  • 07-16-2019, 01:42 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post

    No, I was asking if I had equated the manager's remark about bypassing senior people to excluding me for age. (Hint for the ironic-blind: No I did not.)

    Like this wasn't implying an age-related issue.

    Quote:

    From then on he was very brusque with me. Sharp, and a little scary. As the week went on I got no assignments. On Thursday in the carpool he told us he's trying to hire eight more people but can't find qualified candidates. He said "there are lots of senior people but I don't want senior people. I'm looking for junior people, but they don't want to travel." I didn't say anything.

    I've just turned 65 and he knew it. By 'senior' I don't know whether he was referring to capabilities, or age, but decided to decide that he wasn't referring to me.
  • 07-16-2019, 02:29 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Seems like you're here to bicker PayrolGuy. And to kick a guy when he's down. Do you kick women too?

    Hoping for some more helpful input.
  • 07-16-2019, 02:29 PM
    hr for me
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    In the IT consulting world, this is very common. Ethical? maybe, or not. Some firms tell their employees and contractors to use their discounts, even outside of work trips. They have negotiated with the hotel chain and if the hotel chain doesn't want others to use the discount, they generally only work through one travel agency OR require employee ID.

    "so I said "I don't like that." Meaning I don't like falsely using a discount code because its discount is larger than our firm's discount code. Everybody heard."

    I wouldn't have suggested bringing this up on your first engagement directly to the manager questioning his authority in front of other employees, but asking HR or others later whether something like this was sanctioned. In the end it sounds like the consulting firm had more of an issue with how you handled it than this manager.

    I don't see this as age discrimination, but more of the fact that you questioned authority in the wrong place, wrong time method and got burned.
  • 07-16-2019, 02:40 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    Seems like you're here to bicker PayrolGuy. And to kick a guy when he's down. Do you kick women too?

    Hoping for some more helpful input.

    I did tell you ...

    You got fired and it doesn't seem like they have any misconduct to base a UI disqualification on. A bad hire is on them not you.

    That was in response to asking

    "Any chance of unemployment?"

    That is your only play at this point that has any chance at success.

    You mentioned trying to file an EEOC claim because you were fired because you were a Freemason. What protected class is that?
  • 07-16-2019, 03:37 PM
    eerelations
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    You mentioned trying to file an EEOC claim because you were fired because you were a Freemason. What protected class is that?

    Although this is a bit digressive, I was wondering that myself. Was it religion?

    And if you're still a Freemason, I reco you tell your fellow Freemasons immediately that you are now jobless again, they can probably help you. (I sure wish I'd been a Freemason when I was unemployed in my early 50s and couldn't get a job in my field for three solid years because I was "too old.")
  • 07-16-2019, 03:50 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting eerelations
    View Post
    Was it religion?

    If it was then the reason our OP failed there is that Freemasonry isn't a religion.
  • 07-16-2019, 04:49 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    I am not going to respond as PayrolGuy is bullying himself into this.

    MEAN PEOPLE SUCK!
  • 07-16-2019, 05:08 PM
    cbg
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Would you prefer that he tell you that you have legal recourse, and then have you find out when you go to take legal recourse that you don't?

    Telling you that you do not have clear evidence of a legal claim is not bullying.
  • 07-17-2019, 07:04 AM
    eerelations
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting cbg
    View Post
    Would you prefer that he tell you that you have legal recourse, and then have you find out when you go to take legal recourse that you don't?

    Telling you that you do not have clear evidence of a legal claim is not bullying.

    like button
  • 07-17-2019, 07:17 AM
    budwad
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    Seems like you're here to bicker PayrolGuy. And to kick a guy when he's down. Do you kick women too?

    Hoping for some more helpful input.

    I bet that when you go to sleep you think of all the things you could do to get even. Well it's not about getting even with what you preserve as some injustice. The fact is that there are people in the work force that have no compaction or consideration for the people that report to them. It's about their power over you. And what makes them look good to upper management by creating a circumstance that warrants your dismissal.

    It's time to move on.

    You file for UI and look for another job. That is all you can do.

    You never know. You could end up with a better situation with an employer that actually cares about their employees.

    You should also consider filing for your SS benefits. At age 65 you may be at full retirement age and any wages you make will not reduce your benefits. So it is possible that you take a job for less wages but end up making more with benefits.
  • 07-17-2019, 11:18 AM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    There are some good ppl here after all. Thanks, especially to you budwad.

    I've thought about SocSec but am not ready to retire yet. And if I'm not mistaken the signal year has been raised to 66. I wanted to hold off on SocSec until 70 to get more, but given that it's so hard to get hired at this age I might go ahead. Trouble is I'm in the middle of doing a 5 house development and have debt service of almost $10k a month and no money. (it's all in the project) The job I've just lost paid well and I could cover that, but now I may fail if I can't get another. Thinking about resorting to applying at bottom-of-the-barrel Amazon. (HQ is local)

    As of today I'm revamping my resume to aim lower and will begin with Indeed. Then MS, Amazon, G**gle, etc. I'm feeling a bit better today. My boss at that company was a good guy and I did my damndest there as I knew how hard it is to get hired, how good the pay was, and so on, but I am very surprised that they acted like they were on fire and doing anything possible to put it out. Fired for pointing out dishonesty. You have to be straight doing security work, and if you knew what company this is (allowing rotten apples) you'd be surprised.

    The brief views I saw of their work at the (major) client so far is a mess. The client is resisting giving the next SoW, and I think rightfully so. I could have fixed it over time, but not any more. That may be an embarrassing failure for their new commercial InfoSec practice, and I won't be sad.

    Same old story for millions of years. Not exactly the same, but same music.

    And cbg, no, it's the continuous trolling of PayrolGuy, to wit, "A bad hire is on them not you." Don't you understand what he was saying there? And all his other jabs? Mean people suck.

    Edit: Indeed Full Retirement Age is now 66. If I start now it's a paltry $1,496/mo. At 66 it'd be $106 more. I must try and get a job. I could keep borrowing but at some point they'll turn it off, I'll flame out, and end it. Took me 15 years to emotionally recover from loss of my (self-made) fortune to the stock market in 2001. I am not doing that again.
  • 07-17-2019, 11:39 AM
    cbg
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Yes, I understand what he was saying. I think you're the one who doesn't. "Bad hire" doesn't say anything about you as a person or an employee - it means that the employee and the job were not a good fit for each other. It's not an insult or a troll.
  • 07-17-2019, 01:08 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    He is in no position and has no basis to understand whether I was a bad hire or not. He's just lobbing bombs to make ppl feel bad.

    I was the right fit with the right skills, and that is why my forward-thinking boss hired me even though I'm 65. He'd seen and understood my prior work. But I had some bad luck, with an emotional person who could not be reasoned with.

    The continuum is Science<====================>Politics
    Politics has no use for facts, and Science has no use for Politics. Make your choice.
    Which would you think the client expects from us in recommending cloud security? Troll.
  • 07-17-2019, 01:11 PM
    eerelations
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting cbg
    View Post
    Yes, I understand what he was saying. I think you're the one who doesn't. "Bad hire" doesn't say anything about you as a person or an employee - it means that the employee and the job were not a good fit for each other. It's not an insult or a troll.

    Absolutely agree. You have completely misunderstood the intent PayrolGuy's posts. (Keep in mind we've known him for a long time, and you've only just met him.)

    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    He is in no position and has no basis to understand whether I was a bad hire or not. He's just lobbing bombs to make ppl feel bad.

    I was the right fit with the right skills, and that is why my forward-thinking boss hired me even though I'm 65. He'd seen and understood my prior work. But I had some bad luck, with an emotional person who could not be reasoned with.

    The continuum is Science<====================>Politics
    Politics has no use for facts, and Science has no use for Politics. Make your choice.
    Which would you think the client expects from us in recommending cloud security? Troll.

    Wow, you're calling cbg a troll? After calling PayrolGuy a bully? Wow, you're just determined to misunderstand/mischaracterize everyone you meet, aren't you? Talk about trollish behaviour! I don't know about the other expert volunteers here, but personally, I'm done with this thread.
  • 07-17-2019, 01:21 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    He is in no position and has no basis to understand whether I was a bad hire or not. He's just lobbing bombs to make ppl feel bad.

    I was the right fit with the right skills, and that is why my forward-thinking boss hired me even though I'm 65. He'd seen and understood my prior work. But I had some bad luck, with an emotional person who could not be reasoned with.

    The continuum is Science<====================>Politics
    Politics has no use for facts, and Science has no use for Politics. Make your choice.
    Which would you think the client expects from us in recommending cloud security? Troll.

    At least as far as unemployment is concerned you want it to be a bad hire. Because that means you get UI. A bad hire doesn't mean you did anything wrong it just means things didn't work out. The alternative is they come up with a cause for terminating you and that cause may very well be disqualifying for UI.
  • 07-17-2019, 01:49 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    In WA you must be employed for 4 months to get UE. I was there a month.

    But being fired for Performance does not disqualify. Bottom line is no UE.
  • 07-17-2019, 02:08 PM
    hr for me
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    In WA you must be employed for 4 months to get UE. I was there a month.

    But being fired for Performance does not disqualify. Bottom line is no UE.

    But did you have another job during that time period? How long were you out of work prior to starting this job?
  • 07-17-2019, 02:09 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting quantumn
    View Post
    In WA you must be employed for 4 months to get UE. I was there a month.

    But being fired for Performance does not disqualify. Bottom line is no UE.

    Did you not have a job previous to this one? Did you work anywhere 680 hours between April 18 and June 19? Was at least some of it in WA?
  • 07-17-2019, 03:35 PM
    hr for me
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    Did you not have a job previous to this one? Did you work anywhere 680 hours between April 18 and June 19? Was at least some of it in WA?

    jinx you're it!!!
  • 07-17-2019, 03:36 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting hr for me
    View Post
    jinx you're it!!!

    My response took that extra minute because I had to check the Base Period.
  • 07-17-2019, 03:47 PM
    eerelations
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    My response took that extra minute because I had to check the Base Period.

    Classic bullying tactic. :D
  • 07-17-2019, 03:55 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    Quote:

    Quoting eerelations
    View Post
    Classic bullying tactic. :D

    That's me! :devilish:
  • 07-17-2019, 04:31 PM
    quantumn
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    I've been jobhunting for over 2 years. That's what happens when you're over 60.
  • 07-17-2019, 06:13 PM
    cbg
    Re: Disagreed with Dishonesty, Terminated
    My mother successfully changed jobs when she was 63. Stayed at the new place until they moved out of state seven years later.

    It can be done.
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