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Rights to Protect Property
My question involves criminal law for the state of: Washington
I live in Seattle, where the police aren’t allowed to arrest people for property crimes/trespassing etc. Today I confronted someone about stealing a package from a neighbor and she asked me wha it was going to do about it (in a menacing way). I thought to myself: really, what IS it that I could possibly do? Say she were in my yard stealing, do I just have to watch her take it? It seems like attacking someone for that would be excessive, but with no police protection, what are the options? What if someone enters my home? Or if I catch them rummaging through my car? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Your basic premise is wrong. The police are allowed to arrest such people. No, you have no vigilante rights to go shooting people who are committing crimes to others.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
So, to be clear...I’m not talking about shooting people. I want to know how forcibly I could remove them from my property if they refuse, and the police won’t come. I know it’s hard to believe, but the police won’t arrest people for a lot of these things because the prosecutors won’t pursue charges. The law means little here, when it comes to personal property.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Use a little common sense. You don't risk your life or your freedom for property. Property can be fixed or replaced. With that in mind I give you the following advice.
If you see somebody stealing from your neighbor, call the police, take a picture with your phone. Don't interfere.
If you see somebody beating up your neighbor, call the police, take a picture with your phone. Don't interfere. There's nothing you can do to stop it and you are likely to get yourself injured.
Keep your car doors locked and don't leave valuables in your car. If somebody breaks into your car, call the police. Again, confronting a criminal could get you injured. Theoretically, you can use appropriate force to protect your property. In reality, it's likely to just get you injured. Sure, you can point a gun and yell stop. Then some neighbor reports a crazy person waving a gun, your thief runs away, it's not a good idea to shoot an unarmed thief who is running away.
Inside your house is another story. But you still have to use common sense and just the amount of force that it takes to eliminate the threat, no more.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
What about the law, in the broader sense. That is, if laws aren’t enforced, what things, as citizens, can we do to affect the change? The current leadership of the city doesn’t want property laws enforced, and though we have elections coming up, few are running who want to change this. As a single citizen, do I have any rights “higher up the chain” than my local government, to which I can appeal for justice?
I ask this, because what you are saying, Jack, makes total sense, and is pretty much how I feel about it. But the implication is that if I see someone stealing from me–and knowing full well the the police almost certainly won’t come if I call and if they do, won’t make an arrest–that I should just watch them do it and let it happen. This is really the conundrum I’m wrestling with here.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
If you don’t feel the municipality is using their police force properly you attend the town hall or whatever meetings and express your concerns. When it comes time to vote, you vote to remove people that do not carrry on bussiness as you believe it should be.
This is is an administrative issue so you deal with it through the administrative process.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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AMR1980
I live in Seattle, where the police aren’t allowed to arrest people for property crimes/trespassing etc.
Where did you get the idea that the police in Seattle "aren’t allowed to arrest people for property crimes/trespassing etc."
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AMR1980
Today I confronted someone about stealing a package from a neighbor and she asked me wha it was going to do about it (in a menacing way). I thought to myself: really, what IS it that I could possibly do?
So...you believe Neighbor A stole a package from Neighbor B? The first and most obvious thing that you "could possibly do" is mind your business. Another rather obvious thing that you "could possibly do" is report the alleged crime to the police.
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AMR1980
Say she were in my yard stealing, do I just have to watch her take it?
Of course not.
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AMR1980
It seems like attacking someone for that would be excessive
That sort of depends on what sort of "attack" you mount. The law generally allows the use of reasonable, non-deadly force to prevent theft of property.
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AMR1980
but with no police protection, what are the options?
Sorry, but the notion that there is "no police protection" for this sort of thing is patently absurd.
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AMR1980
What if someone enters my home? Or if I catch them rummaging through my car?
Depends on all of the relevant facts and circumstances. Opining about incomplete hypotheticals is rarely productive.
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AMR1980
The law means little here, when it comes to personal property.
Ah yes...Seattle...well known refuge for the lawless.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
pg, you must live in a different neighborhood than I do. When we call the police they usually won’t come unless there’s a physical assault occurring. If they do come, they won’t make an arrest property crime. I caught someone the other day rummaging through my car. I called the police and and she broke into a neighboring house to hide. The neighbors said that she had broken into the home earlier that day and was getting high on their sofa. When the police came they told me there had been calls about her earlier in the day when she was throwing rocks at cars. They spoke with her for a bit and let her go. They told me that they can’t arrest her because the prosecutor won’t pursue cases like these. This is not the first police officer to tell me this...it is pretty well known in my neck of the woods.
And I will not mind my business if I see people stealing from my neighbors. It was not “neighbor a” stealing, but a pair of people prowling the neighborhood, going through yards and looking for things to steal.
Your condescending attitude betrays your naïveté on the matter. You clearly are not living in the same environment as I am so either try to be helpful or keep to yourself.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
The police do not have to be honest with you. The things they told you about the person going through your car may or may not have been true.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Could be, but I did see her going through my car and breaking into my neighbor’s house. There were multiple witnesses to confirmed it.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
This is silly.
In 2019 there have been 11038 property crimes reported in Seattle. https://www.seattle.gov/police/infor...rime-dashboard
Is it your position that there have been no arrests for those crimes?
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Indeed, there are very few arrests and/or convictions for these, and most of the time police will not respond to such reports. Do you live here too?
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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I did see her going through my car
You keep saying that. Wouldn't it make sense for you to keep your car locked so people can't go through it. And install an alarm that makes a lot of noise when somebody tampers with the car.
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she broke into a neighboring house to hide. The neighbors said that she had broken into the home earlier that day and was getting high on their sofa.
There must be more to that story. Like maybe she's a relative or family member. Your neighbor's could have easily prevented that by keeping their doors locked. Then if somebody breaks the door to get in, they can meet force with force if they have to.
You keep moaning that there is no police protection. Well, the police aren't there to prevent crimes, they are there to clean up the messes after crimes are committee. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. It's up to the individual to protect himself or herself. But if you decide to do that, you'd better be aware of the potential consequences of not getting it just right.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
I realize that it’s hard to believe, but it is the way this city is. I have watched people steal from my yard, and knowing they I’m outnumbered, just have to watch them since they aren’t acknowledging me. Called the police and they didn’t do anything...well actually, some officers came by my house 9-10 hours later so I could file a report. But it didn’t matter that I had photos or anything, it’s just for statistics.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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AMR1980
Indeed, there are very few arrests and/or convictions for these, and most of the time police will not respond to such reports. Do you live here too?
No, I don't live there and I don't have to to be able to read the stats.
A quick look at this. https://ingress.kingcounty.gov/Public/JILS/default.aspx shows multiple arrests in the last 24 hours for property crimes.
But here is the WA state law on the use of force. https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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adjusterjack
You keep saying that. Wouldn't it make sense for you to keep your car locked so people can't go through it. And install an alarm that makes a lot of noise when somebody tampers with the car.
There must be more to that story. Like maybe she's a relative or family member. Your neighbor's could have easily prevented that by keeping their doors locked. Then if somebody breaks the door to get in, they can meet force with force if they have to.
You keep moaning that there is no police protection. Well, the police aren't there to prevent crimes, they are there to clean up the messes after crimes are committee. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. It's up to the individual to protect himself or herself. But if you decide to do that, you'd better be aware of the potential consequences of not getting it just right.
Indeed, I try to be vigilant about locking my car, but I forgot they day. There is nothing more to the story of the break in, believe it or not. She didn’t know anybody there, and she got in when the door was left ajar momentarily.
You miss the point...I called the police after the crime was committed. They caught her in the house and established that she broke in and had no business being there. There were three residents of the house to witnessed it and told the police. Several people witnessed the car break in too and told the police.
It seems like the problem we’re having in this conversation is that people don’t believe what I’m saying. I never thought I’d say this, but check your privilege.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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AMR1980
pg, you must live in a different neighborhood than I do. When we call the police they usually won’t come unless there’s a physical assault occurring. If they do come, they won’t make an arrest property crime.
Hold on a second. First of all, unless you want to provide specific facts, your comment that, "If they do come they won't make an arrest [for a] property crime," is meaningless. How many such incidents do you have personal knowledge of that are informing your generalized statement? Is it more than the one incident you described? Second, in your original post, you claimed that Seattle police "aren’t allowed to arrest people for property crimes/trespassing etc." That's a statement of law or department policy that simply isn't true. That the police didn't make an arrest in one or more specific situations doesn't have a damn thing to do with what they're "allowed" to do.
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AMR1980
And I will not mind my business if I see people stealing from my neighbors.
That's fine. You asked what you "could possibly do," and I answered that question. The decision to do or not do one of the "possible" things you "could do" is entirely up to you. Was that not the question you intended to ask?
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AMR1980
either try to be helpful or keep to yourself.
First of all, this is a public message board, so I'll post as I please until someone associated with whomever operates these boards tells me I may no longer do so. Second, I answered your questions with absolute honesty and accuracy. If you didn't find that helpful, then perhaps you should give more thought to the questions you asked and ask questions that better reflect what you want to know.
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AMR1980
Indeed, there are very few arrests and/or convictions for these, and most of the time police will not respond to such reports.
How many is "very few"? What evidence do you have to support these allegations?
At the end of the day, if you don't like how the law enforcement officials in your city enforce the law, you're free to move.
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flyingron
Your basic premise is wrong. The police are allowed to arrest such people. No, you have no vigilante rights to go shooting people who are committing crimes to others.
Legally allowed and permitted by policy are entirely different matters. Seattle has been following a number of other jurisdictions in de-emphasizing property crimes and quality of life offenses for either NO prosecution or minimal prosecution. As a result, many agencies are either not responding or not taking action on lesser offenses - including property crimes.
The sad reality today is that property offenses, trespassing, and similar low level offenses are simply not a priority in many jurisdictions. With declining personnel and other resources, reversals in proprietorial priorities, and changes in the laws, many locales will be forced to either hunker down or engage in vigilante justice to protect their property.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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AMR1980
Indeed, I try to be vigilant about locking my car, but I forgot they day. There is nothing more to the story of the break in, believe it or not. She didn’t know anybody there, and she got in when the door was left ajar momentarily.
You miss the point...I called the police after the crime was committed. They caught her in the house and established that she broke in and had no business being there. There were three residents of the house to witnessed it and told the police. Several people witnessed the car break in too and told the police.
No, I'm not missing the point. I get it. You live in a ghetto surrounded by low lifes. The police have more than they can handle and you and your neighbor are careless about protecting your own property.
Lock your car doors. Make it a habit. It's muscle memory.
Lock your house doors.
Don't leave anything outside that you want to keep.
If you own the property put up a fence.
Or, you can move to a better neighborhood.
My daughter lives in the Seattle area. About 15 years now. Never had any of the problems that you have reported.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Normal precautions do not always work. One of the most wealthy neighborhoods in Sacramento has regular intrusions and police response to a burglary in progress can take 30+ minutes. A cold burglary or theft MIGHT see a police officer or a community service officer in 4 hours. There's a new reality in many places - even the better ones. It's no longer always as simple as taking simple precautions - especially if you live in those places where there are little to no consequences for the offense, or, the likelihood of getting caught is minimal.
https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion...emands-change/
https://www.kiro7.com/news/tonight-a...lons/946791028
And the stories abound all over the place.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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cdwjava
Normal precautions do not always work.
Then one must take extraordinary precautions. Buy a gun. Learn how to use it. Be willing to use it if your life depends on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Igshxpm99g
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
My brother has lived in Seattle for over 20 years now. Never once reported any of the problems you're describing.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
while the op was wrong in stating the police are not allowed to act, its quite condescending to suggest there aren’t parts of most large towns where the police often refrain from, let’s say, giving it their all.
So do you live live in any of these neighborhoods AMR1980?
https://housely.com/dangerous-neighborhoods-seattle/
1. South Park
Located south of Downtown Seattle, South Park has a crime rate that is 187-percent higher than the national average making it the most dangerous neighborhood in Seattle. A major contributor to this rate is the motor vehicle theft risk which 48-percent higher than the national average. There are 23.25 daily crimes that occur in the neighborhood for every 100,000 people and you have a 1 in 12 chance of being a victim at any given time.
there are many communities in many cities where the police simply cannot handle the volume of calls. When that happens they prioritize the crimes. Property crimes go to the bottom of the list and often result in absolutely no response by the police. They have limited manpower and respond to crimes of violence. We’ve all seen this in our lives in one way or another. When I was a kid, any motor vehicle accident resulted in a cop showing up. Now, in many areas if there was no personal injury and no need for a tow truck the cops tell the people to exchange info and go about their way. They simply do not have the manpower to go to every crime scene.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
I don't think anyone is questioning that there are high crime areas in Seattle. What most of us are questioning is the OPs position that the police aren't making, by policy, property crime arrests.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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PayrolGuy
I don't think anyone is questioning that there are high crime areas in Seattle. What most of us are questioning is the OPs position that the police aren't making, by policy, property crime arrests.
Why? While I suspect the op have a somewhat limited view of everything that is happening, I don’t see it that hard to accept he may see where the police aren’t doing much about property crimes and it very well could be policy.
When a system becomes overtaxed the administrators of the service provided have to make cuts so as to be able to maintain critical services. When speaking of police services and the court system, property crimes are the first to get ignored.
In a bit of reading I have found similar claims.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Well, I posted a link to King County arrests and at the time there were many property crime arrests in that last 24 hours. That pretty much proves there is not a department-wide policy to not make such arrests.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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PayrolGuy
Well, I posted a link to King County arrests and at the time there were many property crime arrests in that last 24 hours. That pretty much proves there is not a department-wide policy to not make such arrests.
maybe its more localized. We all do have a tendency to judge the world by what we see immediately around us.
But it is what it is. If op has problems with the police he can contact the head of the department and or file a complaint with the state’s attorney general.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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jk
maybe its more localized. We all do have a tendency to judge the world by what we see immediately around us.
But it is what it is. If op has problems with the police he can contact the head of the department and or file a complaint with the state’s attorney general.
Maybe it is and yes he should but head back up and read the very sentence of post number one. He hasn't backed off that silly statement in this now 28 post long thread.
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PayrolGuy
Maybe it is and yes he should but head back up and read the very sentence of post number one. He hasn't backed off that silly statement in this now 28 post long thread.
Sorry but I can’t condemn a person for stating what they believe to be fact, especially if what they see appears to support that position. Whether it is an official policy or an unofficial policy doesn’t change how they act. He sees what he sees and unless I’m sitting next to him I am in no position to say he is wrong. I’ve known of several cities that do exactly what he is talking about. There have been nearly lawless sections of some cities through the years.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Sad as it is to admit, property crimes are not a priority in many jurisdictions today. Many county prosecutors have, in recent years - including the past few months - publicly proclaimed that they will NOT prosecute many property crimes. Period. And for the last several years, many law enforcement agencies have had to de-prioritize these offenses to the point where they are effectively not enforced. Not responding in a timely manner has the same effect as not pursuing it.
And, yes, there may have been many arrests for property crimes, but consider that those are only the ones they received ... and how many of them were cited and released? And how many will ultimately be prosecuted? In my state the answer for many (most?) counties would be "almost none" ... from what I have read about in King County, WA (and heard from officers there), the answer is similar.
The downside to all of this is that the public tends to give up even calling the police for lesser offenses and property crimes because they know that the response will be minimal, if at all, and they may have to wait for hours. This leads to either or both a lack of reporting (and skewed stats), or over-reaction and vigilantism by a frustrated public.
While the OP may have factually erred in his assumption that the police "aren't allowed" to make an arrest, response and prosecutor priorities have likely contributed to that impression. And the OP is not alone in this.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
Your basic premise is wrong. The police are allowed to arrest such people. No, you have no vigilante rights to go shooting people who are committing crimes to others. :)
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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havip
Your basic premise is wrong. The police are allowed to arrest such people. No, you have no vigilante rights to go shooting people who are committing crimes to others. :)
If you are going to quote @flyingron you should give him credit. Otherwise it's called "Plagiarism".
Your post has been reported for both the plagiarism of flyingron's post (from page one), and your commercial link.
Have a nice evening.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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AMR1980
I live in Seattle, where the police aren’t allowed to arrest people for property crimes/trespassing etc.
I must have missed this thread so I’m getting in a little late, but would strongly urge everyone to watch as much as you can of the viral investigative news video, Seattle is Dying, in which the problem the OP referenced is well stated, and if you continue watching toward the end a very interesting solution is discussed. It’s really a drug problem. The solution involves arrest and conviction followed by incarceration with strong intervention. Housing placement for drug addicts in the hope they will fly straight is NOT a solution in most cases.
To get some idea of how people feel, start here.
For opinions from police officers, start here.
For a possible solution, start here.
I live in the Seattle area, and what the OP refers to has been in our local news A LOT. Every time I go into Seattle, I see the homeless camps and they are filthy.
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Re: Rights to Protect Property
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searcher99
I must have missed this thread so I’m getting in a little late, but would strongly urge everyone to watch as much as you can of the viral investigative news video,
Seattle is Dying, in which the problem the OP referenced is well stated, and if you continue watching toward the end a very interesting solution is discussed. It’s really a drug problem. The solution involves arrest and conviction followed by incarceration
with strong intervention. Housing placement for drug addicts in the hope they will fly straight is NOT a solution in most cases.
To get some idea of how people feel,
start here.
For opinions from police officers,
start here.
For a possible solution,
start here.
I live in the Seattle area, and what the OP refers to has been in our local news A LOT. Every time I go into Seattle, I see the homeless camps and they are filthy.
^^^ This! ^^^