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Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)

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  • 06-01-2019, 03:42 PM
    rtg20
    Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: CA

    I was ticked in Jan 2019 for allegedly failing to stop at a stop sign. I mailed an informal discovery request to the CHP, who after almost two weeks have declined to reply. What are the odds that if I do a trial by written declaration and ask for dismissal based on lack of discovery that I will win...?

    Thanks!
  • 06-01-2019, 04:08 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    It is now June 1. When was your court date scheduled for?
  • 06-01-2019, 04:12 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Thanks for the reply, originally it was in April but I had it extended until June 10.
  • 06-01-2019, 05:55 PM
    LegalWriter
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    First, you're assuming there's something TO discovery, which may not be the case. Second, in order to obtain any relief for failure to comply with discovery, you have to 1) provide your discovery to the other side and then 2) file a formal motion to compel. See Penal Code section 1054.5.
  • 06-01-2019, 07:59 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting LegalWriter
    View Post
    First, you're assuming there's something TO discovery, which may not be the case. Second, in order to obtain any relief for failure to comply with discovery, you have to 1) provide your discovery to the other side and then 2) file a formal motion to compel. See Penal Code section 1054.5.

    Thanks for the reply. At a minimum there should be the officer's copy of the ticket.

    So what should I do? Ask the district attorney? (It was a highway patrol ticket.) I would prefer to do TWD to save a trip to court.

    thank you!
  • 06-01-2019, 10:35 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quick question - are you sure you sent your informal discovery request to the right CHP Office?

    CHP has many offices throughout the state. Each office maintains its own records and has its own Custodian of Records independent of the others. If your request was sent to an office different that the one the officer worked out of, then they would have nothing to provide you.

    Look on your citation for a box marked "AREA". It should contain a three digit number. Let me know what that number is and I will tell you what office you informal discovery request should have been sent to.

    As a side note, I will offer the following observation regarding stop sign violations. The law requires that you come to a full and complete stop. Most people depress the brake pedal causing the vehicle to slow until they feel it lurch forward. Based on that lurch, they honestly and truly believe they have come to a full and complete stop when in fact, they have only slowed severely but are still rolling. They then continue on their way and are often cited for the violation. It is only when they feel the car lurch forward and then rock back that they have come to a full and complete stop. Most people miss that.

    When you get a chance, go by a busy intersection with a stop sign, sit there for a few minutes and watch. You will see what I mean. The easiest way to ensure not being cited in the future is to hit the brake, feel the car lurch forward, wait for it to rock back, then count to three before you proceed. There will be no doubt in the mind of any officer monitoring the intersection that you came to a full and complete stop.
  • 06-01-2019, 10:48 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Hello yes it's for sure the correct office. I visited the office in person to check before I sent in my request. I showed the person at the front desk my ticket and they confirmed.
  • 06-01-2019, 11:15 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    I am surprised. The CHP Custodian of Records has one job, to sit there all day and respond to these requests. They are usually very good and prompt at responding.
    You can bring the issue up to the court but I suspect all they will do is give you more time to obtain the information or give you and order to compel.

    May I suggest you call the CHP office during the day and ask to speak with the Custodian of Records? It will usually be a Sergeant. It is possible your request somehow fell through the cracks or was sent out but got lost in the mail. There should only be three relevant items to your case. The rules of the game do not require the Custodian to be a mind reader and instead, you must specifically articulate in writing each and every item you want. There are three items that are relevant to your case. First, there should be the officer's copy of your citation. Next would be the MVARS audio video recording from the patrol car. It is unlikely this caught the violation as these only record when the emergency lights come on, but it would have captured the officer's interaction with you. This is important as drivers often admit guilt or instinctively apologize for the violation when contacted by the officer. When the driver claim innocence in court, the MVARS recording is played, using the driver's own words to convict him. The third item is any recording of the enforcement contact made by the officer on a personal recording device. Many officers carry them and it serves the same purpose as the MVARS device but usually provides a higher quality audio recording.
  • 06-02-2019, 07:34 AM
    LegalWriter
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    You have to specifically request the MVARS and they charge to provide it. You can also just subpoena the MVARS and it will be sent directly to the court.
  • 06-02-2019, 04:26 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Thanks for the replies. I was not previously familiar with MVARS and didn't include it in my discovery request (just put video recording). I'll include it in the request I'll send to the DA. If the DA ignore the request or refer me to the CHP, I'll file motion to compel, presumably this can be done with a trial by written declaration?
  • 06-03-2019, 05:33 PM
    zeljo
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    You cannot get the ticket dismissed in TBD due to failure of CHP to provide discovery. If you do TBD, though, the officer will submit his statement, which you can get from the court, free of charge, if you lose TBD. What is your defense?
  • 06-03-2019, 05:45 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Right, I'm going to request discovery from the DA and if I still get nothing, do a motion to compel.

    I have reason to believe that the officer didn't have a good view of the stop sign as it was poorly lit and dark at the time. However if they produce video evidence I can plead no contest and do traffic school.
  • 06-03-2019, 10:35 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Right, I'm going to request discovery from the DA and if I still get nothing, do a motion to compel.

    I have reason to believe that the officer didn't have a good view of the stop sign as it was poorly lit and dark at the time. However if they produce video evidence I can plead no contest and do traffic school.

    The stop sign is a permanent fixture and I'm pretty sure the officer knows that its there, so darkness making it hard to see the sign isn't going to fly. Let's talk about you. If it was that dark, were you driving without your lights on? (CVC 24250) If the officer saw lights sail through the intersection without stopping (no matter how slowly) that defense isn't going to work either.

    Let me ask you this, did you not commit the violation, or did you commit it and you simply don't want to be guilty?
  • 06-03-2019, 11:03 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Whether or not I did it is irrelevant. I'm entitled to my discovery regardless.
  • 06-04-2019, 12:14 AM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Whether or not I did it is irrelevant. I'm entitled to my discovery regardless.

    Of course you are, but thank you for your answer anyway. Your non-response, response pretty much told me what I wanted to know.
  • 06-04-2019, 12:31 AM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    Of course you are, but thank you for your answer anyway. Your non-response, response pretty much told me what I wanted to know.

    What difference does it make to you?
  • 06-04-2019, 03:47 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    And if there is no MVARS video to obtain? Then what?
  • 06-04-2019, 04:05 AM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    What difference does it make to you?

    How you argue a case depends greatly on whether the accused actually committed the crime. For example, no one wants to put forth a defense that involves perjury.
  • 06-04-2019, 04:21 AM
    Guybrush
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    As a side note, I will offer the following observation regarding stop sign violations. The law requires that you come to a full and complete stop. Most people depress the brake pedal causing the vehicle to slow until they feel it lurch forward. Based on that lurch, they honestly and truly believe they have come to a full and complete stop when in fact, they have only slowed severely but are still rolling. They then continue on their way and are often cited for the violation. It is only when they feel the car lurch forward and then rock back that they have come to a full and complete stop.

    Which in my opinion is BS. Police will give speeders a "buffer" of generally 10 mph before they ticket, but no buffer for rocking back on a stop. Not to mentioned that tickets are getting rarer as time goes on. Speeding seems to be the main ticket written any more. Tickets for lack of registration, unsafe vehicles, failure to use headlights, wipers, turn indicators, etc. are rare. Failure to stop at a stop sign is probably second to speeding. Heck if you wish to see an incomplete stop, go to the police station and watch how many fail to wait for their vehicles to "rock back". Also look for ones that fail to use turn indicators or head lights on foggy days. Sorry to be bashing them, but only the easy tickets are being written these days.
  • 06-04-2019, 11:48 AM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    How you argue a case depends greatly on whether the accused actually committed the crime. For example, no one wants to put forth a defense that involves perjury.

    Who said I wanted to argue it? Right now all I want is my discovery. If there's no MVARS...so what. I still want to discover the officer's notes; his location when observing the stop sign, etc.
  • 06-04-2019, 01:25 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Who said I wanted to argue it? Right now all I want is my discovery. If there's no MVARS...so what. I still want to discover the officer's notes; his location when observing the stop sign, etc.

    But then.......

    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Right, I'm going to request discovery from the DA and if I still get nothing, do a motion to compel.

    I have reason to believe that the officer didn't have a good view of the stop sign as it was poorly lit and dark at the time. However if they produce video evidence I can plead no contest and do traffic school.

    Perhaps based on you post some of us thought you came here to (among other things) get help formulating a defense. My bad. Please let us know when you arrive at El Toboso.
  • 06-04-2019, 01:42 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Not sure what El Toboso has to do with this but no, not help with a defense per say. Please refer to my original post, which asked about the impact of the failure of the state to respond to discovery requests on my likelihood of winning; and then follow-up posts, which pertained to motion to compel. These are more procedural questions rather than defense strategies. My reason to believe that the officer didn't have a good view isn't itself a good defense (since the officer can just assert that he did) - just justification for the discovery.
  • 06-04-2019, 04:02 PM
    zeljo
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    OK, so to answer your question, you have zero chance for dismissal in TBD due to lack of discovery. I would suggest you plead not guilty and state in TBD that officer could not see you well enough and made a mistake, and explain why (something in his field of vision, the angle of observation, etc). If the officer does NOT submit his statement, that should get you off. If he does, it will not, but that is almost always the case in TBD anyway if the cop responds.

    Even in court trial, your chances are slim to none with that. If the officer himself does not use MVARS in trial (which he will not), he does not HAVE TO give it to you. The notes are a different matter, but you can at best get a continuance on that.... not a dismissal. Your only chance, I think, is him not showing up. So you may wanna save yourself some time and effort on orders to compel and such.
  • 06-04-2019, 05:55 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Guybrush
    View Post
    Which in my opinion is BS. Police will give speeders a "buffer" of generally 10 mph before they ticket, but no buffer for rocking back on a stop. Not to mentioned that tickets are getting rarer as time goes on. Speeding seems to be the main ticket written any more. Tickets for lack of registration, unsafe vehicles, failure to use headlights, wipers, turn indicators, etc. are rare. Failure to stop at a stop sign is probably second to speeding. Heck if you wish to see an incomplete stop, go to the police station and watch how many fail to wait for their vehicles to "rock back". Also look for ones that fail to use turn indicators or head lights on foggy days. Sorry to be bashing them, but only the easy tickets are being written these days.

    Hardly BS. Loiter near a stop sign sometime and watch the cars that approach. Unless it is an extremely busy intersection, you will find that most people tap-and-go. Back when I worked patrol, on those days when I had discretionary time, monitoring a stop sign controlled intersection was a great way to rack up stops and stay busy because you could make a stop within a couple of minutes, easy.

    In CA many agencies simply don't write tickets at all these days. They don't have the time or the resources. In some agencies, patrol is prohibited from conducting traffic enforcement unless it's egregious. But, traffic officers (most often motorcycle officers) will write anything and everything as that is what they do.

    The unfortunate side effect of this state's diminished resources and lack of enforcement of infractions and misdemeanors (thanks to legislation minimizing the consequences of even lesser crimes) is that the courts are hurting for money. Infractions and misdemeanors fund courts and related programs, and those incomes are greatly reduced. Oops! Now the lost revenue will have to be made up through other funds (i.e. new or re-purposed taxes).

    If you are fortunate enough to be living in a place where the police have the discretionary time and lack of activity to actually conduct traffic enforcement and write tickets, consider yourself fortunate.
  • 06-04-2019, 07:25 PM
    zeljo
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Guybrush
    View Post
    Which in my opinion is BS. Police will give speeders a "buffer" of generally 10 mph before they ticket, but no buffer for rocking back on a stop. Not to mentioned that tickets are getting rarer as time goes on. Speeding seems to be the main ticket written any more. Tickets for lack of registration, unsafe vehicles, failure to use headlights, wipers, turn indicators, etc. are rare. Failure to stop at a stop sign is probably second to speeding. Heck if you wish to see an incomplete stop, go to the police station and watch how many fail to wait for their vehicles to "rock back". Also look for ones that fail to use turn indicators or head lights on foggy days. Sorry to be bashing them, but only the easy tickets are being written these days.

    I agree wholeheartedly. The #2 citation (after speeding) is probably the one for "California" stops with no cross-traffic in sight, a total and utter bullshit with no redeeming value other than collecting revenue for the local jurisdiction. At the same time, almost no one is cited for failure to signal before turning or changing lanes, for example, a ubiquitous and truly dangerous behavior.
  • 06-04-2019, 08:01 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly. The #2 citation (after speeding) is probably the one for "California" stops with no cross-traffic in sight, a total and utter bullshit with no redeeming value other than collecting revenue for the local jurisdiction. At the same time, almost no one is cited for failure to signal before turning or changing lanes, for example, a ubiquitous and truly dangerous behavior.

    Actually, not true. The local jurisdiction (i.e. the city that employs the officer) receives about $7.50 on the citation that costs you $283 And after taking into account the cost for the officer and the vehicle, it's about half that or less) ... and if it's contested, you need a few dozen more to break even. Whereas a $50 parking cite typically results in about $36-$43 for the local jurisdiction with no chance of overtime for the officer if contested. If it were about money, the police would be riding golf carts with chalk sticks. The exception to this is photo-enforced red light cameras which DO tend to be moneymakers for those few cities that still operate them effectively.

    But, aside from the CHP, a great many agencies in CA have little time to conduct traffic enforcement absent traffic units assigned to the task. Once upon a time patrol officers could conduct traffic enforcement, but many (most?) medium to large cities in CA no longer engage in traffic enforcement either by general order or default due to a lack of resources.
  • 06-05-2019, 08:41 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Who said I wanted to argue it? Right now all I want is my discovery. If there's no MVARS...so what. I still want to discover the officer's notes; his location when observing the stop sign, etc.

    If, as you state, you are not interested in arguing the case now and just want your discovery, a TBD is the easiest way to get it. Zeljo is correct when he states, "You cannot get the ticket dismissed in TBD due to failure of CHP to provide discovery" because there is no opportunity for you to file a motion to compel at this stage of the case, not for a TBD. In my opinion, a TBD is useful ONLY for the purpose of discovery and locking the officer into specific testimony as to your guilt; rarely will you win your case at this point. A TBD, by design, is meant to provide an easy way to contest your citation, and requesting discovery and a motion to compel isn't simple.

    My suggestion is , plead guilty and request traffic school.
  • 06-05-2019, 11:23 AM
    zeljo
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Actually, not true. The local jurisdiction (i.e. the city that employs the officer) receives about $7.50 on the citation that costs you $283 And after taking into account the cost for the officer and the vehicle, it's about half that or less) ... and if it's contested, you need a few dozen more to break even.

    Your statement is false, according to California Courts web site (and common sense). A significant and, more importantly, guaranteed amount of money goes to local government, city and county.
  • 06-05-2019, 02:17 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    View Post
    Your statement is false, according to California Courts web site (and common sense). A significant and, more importantly, guaranteed amount of money goes to local government, city and county.

    But is it false?

    cdwjava said the city gets about $7.50 while the judicial website references a split between the city and county. It is possible CDW's town only got "around" $7.50 as part of their split?

    No one does this for the money. CHP writes hundreds of thousands of citations each year and doesn't see a penny of citation money in their budget.
  • 06-05-2019, 03:54 PM
    zeljo
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    But is it false?

    cdwjava said the city gets about $7.50 while the judicial website references a split between the city and county. It is possible CDW's town only got "around" $7.50 as part of their split?

    CDW never said it was just "his town." Generally though, no, it's not possible. Can you read? Or do elementary math? Or look up "around"?

    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post

    No one does this for the money. CHP writes hundreds of thousands of citations each year and doesn't see a penny of citation money in their budget.

    What a stupid thing to say. Unlike the police in general, CHP has pretty much nothing else to do. They do it because they're told to, and localities and state get the money.
  • 06-05-2019, 05:50 PM
    PayrolGuy
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    https://newsroom.courts.ca.gov/facts...-in-california

    Traffic Tickets in California, Explained
    How is the amount determined and where does the money go?
  • 06-05-2019, 09:01 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    But is it false?

    cdwjava said the city gets about $7.50 while the judicial website references a split between the city and county. It is possible CDW's town only got "around" $7.50 as part of their split?

    No one does this for the money. CHP writes hundreds of thousands of citations each year and doesn't see a penny of citation money in their budget.

    The CVC lays out the percentages of the BASE fine (typically $35) that each jurisdiction receives. This amount is often in the 25% range. CHP doesn't receive this, of course. It varies a bit by jurisdiction. I'd find the section that lays it out, but am a bit rushed just now.
    The officer's employing jurisdiction makes virtually nothing on moving cites. This is why budgeting for law enforcement agencies tend not to rely on moving cite income for their budgets. Parking, yes. Records, yes. Other sources, yes. But from cites? Too small and relies on cites not being contested to make anything at all. Parking cites, now THAT is where the money is!
  • 06-10-2019, 03:03 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting zeljo
    View Post
    You cannot get the ticket dismissed in TBD due to failure of CHP to provide discovery. If you do TBD, though, the officer will submit his statement, which you can get from the court, free of charge, if you lose TBD. What is your defense?

    Is it possible to see the officer's statement before the deadline for filing my plea in TBD? Both my discovery requests have been ignored (by CHP and DA).

    Thanks!
  • 06-10-2019, 03:20 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Is it possible to see the officer's statement before the deadline for filing my plea in TBD? Both my discovery requests have been ignored (by CHP and DA).

    Thanks!

    If the officer's statement has been submitted, and the court will allow you to see the file, yes. You can always go to the court and ask.
  • 06-10-2019, 03:27 PM
    L-1
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Go to the CHP office in question, ask to speak with the Custodian of Records or if they are not available, a supervisor. Show them a copy of your citation along with the informal discovery requests you have sent to CHP that have gone unanswered, explain that have not received anything after multiple requests and that you have a short court date coming up. Then ask if the can check the officer's mail box and make you a copy of his "green."

    The "green" is the officer's copy of the citation. Most (but not all) officers store them in their office mailbox so they can be easily accesable to the Custodian of Records or a supervisor when the citing officer is off duty. What you are asking is unorthodox and by policy should be denied. However, if you are polite, explain the situation and do not cop an attitude, someone just might help you (so be extra polite).

    Hopefully that will get you a little bit of what you are looking for.
  • 06-14-2019, 10:46 AM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    Go to the CHP office in question, ask to speak with the Custodian of Records or if they are not available, a supervisor. Show them a copy of your citation along with the informal discovery requests you have sent to CHP that have gone unanswered, explain that have not received anything after multiple requests and that you have a short court date coming up. Then ask if the can check the officer's mail box and make you a copy of his "green."

    The "green" is the officer's copy of the citation. Most (but not all) officers store them in their office mailbox so they can be easily accesable to the Custodian of Records or a supervisor when the citing officer is off duty. What you are asking is unorthodox and by policy should be denied. However, if you are polite, explain the situation and do not cop an attitude, someone just might help you (so be extra polite).

    Hopefully that will get you a little bit of what you are looking for.

    OK I intended to visit the office yesterday and on Wed but it didn't work out so I called today instead. Asked to speak to the Custodian of Records and explained the situation. They told me to call back on Monday and ask to speak to the sub poena clerk.

    Meanwhile the DA replied to my discovery request and directed me to the CHP for discovery.

    I'm planning to ask for a continuance on the trial by written declaration if I can't get my discovery in time.
  • 06-14-2019, 07:17 PM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Is it possible to see the officer's statement before the deadline for filing my plea in TBD?

    If you're talking about the officers TBD statement, NO. The officer isn't even notified that you opted for a TBD until after your file your TBD statement with the court (See instructions in form TR-200, paragraph 3). Prior to that, the only statement filed by the officer is the Notice to Appear.
  • 06-17-2019, 08:09 PM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign - 22450(A)
    ...ok I finally got my discovery from the CHP and it is damning. More damning than expected. What's the easiest way to get traffic school at this point?
  • 06-18-2019, 11:26 AM
    Jim Kozlovich
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Quote:

    Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    Should I plead no contest in the TBD to maximize my chance of getting traffic school? I don't want my insurance to go up.

    You CAN'T plead No Contest in a TBD, the only plea allowed is Not Guilty. All you have to do is ask the court for traffic school and you'll get it. There is nothing else you have to do (except pay the fine).
  • 06-18-2019, 11:54 AM
    rtg20
    Re: Stop Sign Ticket, VC 22450(A)
    Thanks for the reply. So on the "Explain what happened" part of the TBD form I should write something like "In the event that the court does not find in my favor in this case, I respectfully request traffic school"...?
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