Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California
I made a delivery in a company truck in a gated residential community that they call a country club last week. I was so tired and I may have let the truck to roll faster downhill than intended, a "public safety officer" gave me a citation for speeding 10 miles/hour more than the speed limit. I was so tired and didn't think and gave him my driver license when he asked for it, then he told me that this citation didn't affect my driver license and told me to call the phone # on the paper to ask how much the citation was. I was at least smart enough not to sign the citation, not sure if it made any difference. I suddenly realized that this is a private property, and he may not be a real cop. Is public safety officer considered police? I should refuse to give him my driver license.
My questions:
1. What if I don't pay the citation? Can they send it to collection agency? The citation contained my name, address, company truck licence plate and description, time and date. But it didn't show my driver license #, not sure if he even wrote it down at all. The citation is paid to the country club, not government. The citation doesn't look like a real traffic ticket, just a small piece that say Rule Violation Citation. I haven't called the phone # for the citation cost, and don't plan to.
2. What if I refused to show him my driver license at the time? Could he call the real cop and would I get a real citation for real? I just want to know what to do next time I encounter situation like this. Of course, I won't speed again, but mistake happens.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
What does it say on the citation? Is it a "Notice to appear" with a court date and the name of a law enforcement agency?
When you were stopped, were the lights on the patrol vehicle red & blue? Or, were they only yellow? Red and blue would indicate law enforcement, yellow to the front would indicate security.
And what code section is listed on the cite?
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
The citation says:
Rule violation: 1.02.1.B, Speeding 35 mph.
It has Name, time, date, address, location, barcode #, Lic #, Vehicle Make, Color, comments, acknowledgement of receipt, signature of the public safety officer. The weird thing is that it has employee #. No "notice to appear" with any court date and name of the law enforcement agency. On the top, it said something something Country Club, Rule Violation Citation. 6490 at the upper right hand corner.
I don't remember what light color, I didn't even notice him behind me until a security guard stopped me at the gate because it had no sound.
The weird thing was that he told me that the citation won't affect my driver license. Does it mean it's not a real traffic ticket?
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Quoting
cdwjava
What does it say on the citation? Is it a "Notice to appear" with a court date and the name of a law enforcement agency?
When you were stopped, were the lights on the patrol vehicle red & blue? Or, were they only yellow? Red and blue would indicate law enforcement, yellow to the front would indicate security.
And what code section is listed on the cite?
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
Citations in CA are standardized and they all look very similar as a matter of law.
1.02.1.B does not match ANY state law, and it does not conform to any county or municipal code I have ever seen. Nor does it generate a hit to any local government code online.
Who does it say you must pay a fine to? Does it give instructions as to what you have to do?
This sounds like a homeowners association or security thing and not law enforcement. If you reside in the confines of the residential association this little thing could cause you problems if you do not take care of it.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
It said mail the check to something something Country Club "Attn: Public Safety Administration". I don't think it's a government agency.
How do I know if I reside in the confines of the residential association? I don't live there. I don't have HOA at the place I live now, I don't even own a house. What kind of trouble can they cause me? Can they send to collection agency if I don't pay?
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cdwjava
Citations in CA are standardized and they all look very similar as a matter of law.
1.02.1.B does not match ANY state law, and it does not conform to any county or municipal code I have ever seen. Nor does it generate a hit to any local government code online.
Who does it say you must pay a fine to? Does it give instructions as to what you have to do?
This sounds like a homeowners association or security thing and not law enforcement. If you reside in the confines of the residential association this little thing could cause you problems if you do not take care of it.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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highrollers
It said mail the check to something something Country Club "Attn: Public Safety Administration". I don't think it's a government agency.
How do I know if I reside in the confines of the residential association? I don't live there. I don't have HOA at the place I live now, I don't even own a house. What kind of trouble can they cause me? Can they send to collection agency if I don't pay?
Sounds like a civil thing to me. And you should know if you live inside the association's property. If you do, you may be required to pay pursuant to those covenants. If not, then I doubt there is anything they can really do ... aside from barring you entrance to the property in the future, perhaps.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
Next time if I face situation like this again, should I refuse to give him my driver license? Can they call real cop and issue me a real citation?
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cdwjava
Sounds like a civil thing to me. And you should know if you live inside the association's property. If you do, you may be required to pay pursuant to those covenants. If not, then I doubt there is anything they can really do ... aside from barring you entrance to the property in the future, perhaps.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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highrollers
Next time if I face situation like this again, should I refuse to give him my driver license? Can they call real cop and issue me a real citation?
Maybe. Hard to say without knowing where this was. You are under no LEGAL obligation to provide identification to private security, but, that does not mean that there will not be consequences of some kind such as a detention for the "real" police, or a detention/arrest for trespassing or something else.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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highrollers
The citation says:
Rule violation: 1.02.1.B, Speeding 35 mph.
That section probably is based on something called “Model Penal Code” which appears in business law courses on college and university law school sites:
Quote:
Quoting Model Penal Code § 1.02(1)(b)
to subject to public control persons whose conduct indicates that they are disposed to commit crimes
So probably they have adapted this standard language to their homeowner’s association rules in order to penalize residents and regular visitors for potentially unsafe conduct (and no doubt as well as to bring in more revenue to offset operating expenses).
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
I would suggest that instead of just ignoring the so-called citation, you write a letter to the address on the citation letting them know that you wish to contest the citation and need to know what their process is for doing this. IF there is a process, which I doubt there is, I would bet that the citing officer does not know how to lay the requisite foundation for his prosecution and prove "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" that you were in fact speeding. This will put the ball back in their court.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
I would first ask them to verify that they have the authority to write speeding 'citations' to the general public...and what are the legal consequences if you ignored it?
Only residents agreed in writing to abide by the HOA rules(CC&R's).
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Jim Kozlovich
I would suggest that instead of just ignoring the so-called citation, you write a letter to the address on the citation letting them know that you wish to contest the citation and need to know what their process is for doing this. IF there is a process, which I doubt there is, I would bet that the citing officer does not know how to lay the requisite foundation for his prosecution and prove "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" that you were in fact speeding. This will put the ball back in their court.
Since any such appeal would be to an HOA board or someone else likely lacking in any legal training, there would be no real need for the security officer to set a legal foundation for diddly. Personally, I wouldn't waste time contesting such a thing unless I actually resided within the HOA's authority. And, having once lived in such a community, I would never do so again.
If the OP is truly interested in contesting this, by all means, they should contact whatever number or address is on the notice they received and look into it. However, if they are not subject to the CCRs there would be no real way for the HOA to enforce any speed violation.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
The only thing they can do is not let you in the next time. This only if they keep track of license plates and "violations", which is unlikely.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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cdwjava
Maybe. Hard to say without knowing where this was. You are under no LEGAL obligation to provide identification to private security, but, that does not mean that there will not be consequences of some kind such as a detention for the "real" police, or a detention/arrest for trespassing or something else.
I'll also add to this, if the security guard were to hold you for local law enforcement to arrive, the police officer can write you a ticket (most likely careless driving) and the security guard would sign it as the complainant. But then the security guard would have to take a day off from work, to show to court if you were to contest the ticket.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Who'sThatGuy
I'll also add to this, if the security guard were to hold you for local law enforcement to arrive, the police officer can write you a ticket (most likely careless driving) and the security guard would sign it as the complainant. But then the security guard would have to take a day off from work, to show to court if you were to contest the ticket.
Largely correct. A detention in CA can be made if the detaining party intends to make a private person's arrest (PC 837) for the offense and turn them over to law enforcement.
However, a violation of state law (presumably VC 22350) would still have to apply. No probable cause to believe a violation of state law occurred, no crime to have been detained for. If this area is private property and there is no ordinance that allows the enforcement of the CVC on the property, then no CVC cite could be issued. Even then, if the "highway" was not "publicly maintained", most the CVC would not apply. If this is a gated community with roads maintained by private funds, then it might have to be some local muni code.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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cdwjava
Largely correct. A detention in CA can be made if the detaining party intends to make a private person's arrest (PC 837) for the offense and turn them over to law enforcement.
However, a violation of state law (presumably VC 22350) would still have to apply. No probable cause to believe a violation of state law occurred, no crime to have been detained for. If this area is private property and there is no ordinance that allows the enforcement of the CVC on the property, then no CVC cite could be issued. Even then, if the "highway" was not "publicly maintained", most the CVC would not apply. If this is a gated community with roads maintained by private funds, then it might have to be some local muni code.
I doubt a CVC cite could be issued even it was a pubic road.
Citizens cannot witness what they think is speeding, do a citizen's arrest on the perp, then call the police to write a citation. It just doesn't work that way. The cop has to witness or have better evidence of the infraction to write it.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Chuck77
I doubt a CVC cite could be issued even it was a pubic road.
Citizens cannot witness what they think is speeding, do a citizen's arrest on the perp, then call the police to write a citation. It just doesn't work that way. The cop has to witness or have better evidence of the infraction to write it.
It can be difficult to prove, but it can and has been done (and can be annoying as hell since it tends to require a report). And statements are evidence. That is, the private person can try and articulate why they think the speed was either unsafe or in excess of the posted limit and that would be sufficient at least for the citation. Pursuant to PC 837, a private party CAN make an arrest for any "public offense" committed or attempted in their presence, and a traffic infraction is a "public offense". It might be up to the officer to decide if there is probable cause to actually issue the citation, or a court to determine if there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but a private person can sign a citizen's arrest even for infractions.
Keep in mind that the officer cannot weigh the validity of the offense in their decision, they can only act on their observations and statements. If the private person insists on the C/A the officer has three options: (1) Arrest and release on a citation for the infraction or misdemeanor (no cite option for a felony), (2) arrest and book into jail, or, (3) take no action based upon a lack of probable cause (a possible release pursuant to PC 849, depending on the circumstances). The officer cannot evaluate the offense and choose to act or not to act based upon his personal opinion of the offense; and, it can be a crime (per PC 142 - a potential felony) to refuse to accept such an arrest provided there exists even minimal probable cause.
I have had to take such arrests a handful of times in my career - twice where they were on me, and a few other times where I was either an assisting officer or the supervisor. They suck, but, we have little choice.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Quoting
cdwjava
It can be difficult to prove, but it can and has been done (and can be annoying as hell since it tends to require a report). And statements are evidence. That is, the private person can try and articulate why they think the speed was either unsafe or in excess of the posted limit and that would be sufficient at least for the citation. Pursuant to PC 837, a private party CAN make an arrest for any "public offense" committed or attempted in their presence, and a traffic infraction is a "public offense". It might be up to the officer to decide if there is probable cause to actually issue the citation, or a court to determine if there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but a private person can sign a citizen's arrest even for infractions.
Keep in mind that the officer cannot weigh the validity of the offense in their decision, they can only act on their observations and statements. If the private person insists on the C/A the officer has three options: (1) Arrest and release on a citation for the infraction or misdemeanor (no cite option for a felony), (2) arrest and book into jail, or, (3) take no action based upon a lack of probable cause (a possible release pursuant to PC 849, depending on the circumstances). The officer cannot evaluate the offense and choose to act or not to act based upon his personal opinion of the offense; and, it can be a crime (per PC 142 - a potential felony) to refuse to accept such an arrest provided there exists even minimal probable cause.
I have had to take such arrests a handful of times in my career - twice where they were on me, and a few other times where I was either an assisting officer or the supervisor. They suck, but, we have little choice.
This sounds very strange to me. Are you saying that a private citizen can witness a car speeding, pull that car over, get the driver out of the car and put him under citizen's arrest? Then, if the driver refuses to go along with it, for him to be put into restraints or a headlock by the concerned citizen until the cops come? All for doing 42 in a 35mph zone.
Talk about exposing yourself to a lawsuit for assault and false imprisonment. But you are saying it has been done without a hitch?
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Chuck77
This sounds very strange to me. Are you saying that a private citizen can witness a car speeding, pull that car over, get the driver out of the car and put him under citizen's arrest? Then, if the driver refuses to go along with it, for him to be put into restraints or a headlock by the concerned citizen until the cops come? All for doing 42 in a 35mph zone.
Talk about exposing yourself to a lawsuit for assault and false imprisonment. But you are saying it has been done without a hitch?
Never said they could pull a vehicle over, though the law does theoretically permit it ... provided the allegedly speeding vehicle wants to submit to the other party's authority. A motorist is under no legal obligation to yield to another motorist. Further, even a private person is permitted to use "reasonable" force to affect the arrest. There is ample case law to support a private person's use of "reasonable force" to affect the citizen's arrest. I suppose using a headlock or other force to detain someone for an infraction might be considered UNreasonable ... but, if he was trying to flee ??? Yes, the use of force is possible and legal, provided it is reasonable.
The most common scenario is that the offending vehicle is followed to a location and the driver is contacted (and possibly detained) at that location and the police are called. Once the police arrive, that's when they have to sort the whole thing out and resolve it on one of the aforementioned three ways: Cite, custody, or release for lack of cause.
Keep in mind that I speak of CA law, not the law in other states. I cannot say with any certainty whether force can be used elsewhere, or what limits might exist to a private person's ability to affect an arrest or detention in other states.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
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Who'sThatGuy
I'll also add to this, if the security guard were to hold you for local law enforcement to arrive, the police officer can write you a ticket (most likely careless driving) and the security guard would sign it as the complainant. But then the security guard would have to take a day off from work, to show to court if you were to contest the ticket.
If it was pursued to this extent, I doubt the guard would need to take a day off since it is a work function that he would be attending to and not a personal issue. Similar to cops not taking a day off to attend traffic court for tickets they write.
Re: Must I Pay Speeding Ticket Issued in Private Property
PENAL CODE - PEN
PART 2. OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE [681 - 1620] ( Part 2 enacted 1872. )
TITLE 3. ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS REGARDING CRIMINAL PROCEDURE [777 - 883] ( Heading of Title 3 amended by Stats. 1951, Ch. 1674. )
CHAPTER 5. Arrest, by Whom and How Made [833 - 851.92] ( Chapter 5 enacted 1872. )
837.
A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
(Enacted 1872.)
PENAL CODE - PEN
PRELIMINARY PROVISIONS ( Preliminary Provisions enacted 1872. )
15.
A crime or public offense is an act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it, and to which is annexed, upon conviction, either of the following punishments:
1. Death;
2. Imprisonment;
3. Fine;
4. Removal from office; or,
5. Disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit in this State.
(Enacted 1872.)