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Trespass by a Health Inspector

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  • 05-06-2007, 08:30 PM
    zedex
    Trespass by a Health Inspector
    This video has become topic of debate in another forum of which I am a member.

    Is the lady within her rights? Did the cop not with hold the law by permitting her on the property or by allowing her to enter without consent, did he allow her to violate his rights?

    I don't know much about the video, nor do I know the outcome. It is about 9 min long. Please veiw and share your thoughts based soley from what you see, not presume. Thats what our debate is-- only what is seen.

    Who is in the righjt and is there basis for suit?

    http://www.break.com/index/sheriff-a...respass2b.html
  • 05-06-2007, 08:43 PM
    Baystategirl
    Re: who is in the right?
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    This video has become topic of debate in another forum of which I am a member.

    Is the lady within her rights? Did the cop not with hold the law by permitting her on the property or by allowing her to enter without consent, did he allow her to violate his rights?

    I don't know much about the video, nor do I know the outcome. It is about 9 min long. Please veiw and share your thoughts based soley from what you see, not presume. Thats what our debate is-- only what is seen.

    Who is in the righjt and is there basis for suit?

    http://www.break.com/index/sheriff-a...respass2b.html

    I saw this at Freeadvice....A Health Inspector has the right to enter property if there is a concern of a health or safety issue...She did nothing wrong, and the Sheriff did nothing wrong.
  • 05-06-2007, 09:40 PM
    zedex
    Re: who is in the right?
    So Health Inspectors are not required to have search warrants?

    My view-and it may be wrong- is that she could not specify anything other than "there may be a violation". Is that reason enough for her unwarranted entry against property owners' wishes? I don't think so. She should have to show probable cause to a judge to obtain a warrant BEFORE entry.
    As for the cop, he witnessed a crime: her unwarranted entry. Yet, he does nothing. The cop said "if you have nothing to hide, let her look". I don't think it is a matter of having something to hide as the property owner said if she had a warrant, it is ok.
    Where does the right to not be subjected to unfair or unwarranted searches actually come into play? Do property owners really have rights?

    The lady was told the day before to get a warrant. She didn't. Instead, it became a scare tactic by bringing a cop, who can be heard explaining to the lady about trespassing and warrants. She proceded anyway. And the cop does nothing. Part of the debate is whether or not the cop becomes an accessory{sp?} to the crime by failing to stop her.

    I have to admit, the camera man is abit arrogant, of which I do not approve, but I thought he still had some kind of right to privacy on his own property.
  • 05-07-2007, 07:35 AM
    BlueCrystal
    Re: who is in the right?
    I am in agreement with the property owner. I would not like anyone to come on my property or inspect what I am doing. They should have to get a warrant. I have nothing to hide in my home or on my lands but I believe this trespass is unlawful and the deputy and woman should both be arrested.
  • 05-07-2007, 11:48 AM
    zedex
    Re: who is in the right?
    Quote:

    Quoting BlueCrystal
    View Post
    I am in agreement with the property owner. I would not like anyone to come on my property or inspect what I am doing. They should have to get a warrant. I have nothing to hide in my home or on my lands but I believe this trespass is unlawful and the deputy and woman should both be arrested.

    Agreed, but is there a violation committed??
  • 05-07-2007, 08:40 PM
    aaron
    Re: who is in the right?
    What exactly was he doing that triggered the inspection?
  • 05-07-2007, 10:24 PM
    deadlock
    Re: who is in the right?
    Quote:

    Quoting aaron
    View Post
    What exactly was he doing that triggered the inspection?

    If it is the LiveLeak video, it's too difficult to hear the Health Inspector. The property owner never shuts up long enough to hear her answer his questions.

    It sounds like he was digging (he says just moving dirt around) and she is following up on a complaint to Health Inspector. Who knows what he is doing? maybe covering up dead bodies, animals, chemicals. She tried to inspect the property the day before this episode and had to return the following day with the Sheriff.
  • 05-07-2007, 10:30 PM
    deadlock
    Re: who is in the right?
    Quote:

    Quoting zedex
    View Post
    So Health Inspectors are not required to have search warrants?

    My view-and it may be wrong- is that she could not specify anything other than "there may be a violation". Is that reason enough for her unwarranted entry against property owners' wishes? I don't think so. She should have to show probable cause to a judge to obtain a warrant BEFORE entry.
    As for the cop, he witnessed a crime: her unwarranted entry. Yet, he does nothing. The cop said "if you have nothing to hide, let her look". I don't think it is a matter of having something to hide as the property owner said if she had a warrant, it is ok.
    Where does the right to not be subjected to unfair or unwarranted searches actually come into play? Do property owners really have rights?

    The lady was told the day before to get a warrant. She didn't. Instead, it became a scare tactic by bringing a cop, who can be heard explaining to the lady about trespassing and warrants. She proceded anyway. And the cop does nothing. Part of the debate is whether or not the cop becomes an accessory{sp?} to the crime by failing to stop her.

    I have to admit, the camera man is abit arrogant, of which I do not approve, but I thought he still had some kind of right to privacy on his own property.

    Z- A public health inspector doesn't need a warrant. They do need to give warning of intent to inspect. They don't need to tell you that your neighbors to the East complained of smelling dead bodies. They do need to tell you there has been a complaint made. Usually they attempt to call and give warning of a visit.

    Arrogant. That's what you call it? He sounds ignorant. BTW- isn't LiveLeak supposed to be funny or ridiculous videos? I didn't think it was supposed to be a news release.
  • 05-08-2007, 08:19 AM
    aaron
    Re: who is in the right?
    If he was digging around in a septic field, I can see why a health inspection might be necessary.
  • 05-08-2007, 06:23 PM
    Poltracker
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    If I could count the times I've heard someone say that to me....
    A health inspector generally enforces civil laws not criminal laws and therefore does not need a warrant to enter property, a complaint, or the mere fact that a person has a permitted (or permit requiring) facility (i.e. a septic tank) is reasonable cause. Having been there and done that, the health inspector brought the Sherrif not to inimidate but for protection of her person due to the gentleman having been his charming self the previous day. Don't know about her state but if I saw the condition of that fellow's property in the video, I would investigate too. Most states have "right to enter" clauses somewhere in the health and/or environmental codes.
  • 05-08-2007, 07:15 PM
    jk
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    I was reading one of the sites this is posted and they spoke of e coli levels in area water which apparently they believe were traceable to this guys property.



    This was in LaPorte county Indiana if the gossip was correct. The landowner did sue for the trespass but was rebuffed by the judge.

    Not sure of any of the facts, simply repeating what some of the folks were posting.

    Did anybody notice the sheriff did not enter the property (short of the minor thing at the driveway) even after the woman was cruising all over the land?

    It would seem if the woman did have rights to be there, given the aggressiveness of the landowner, he would have had rights to accompany the woman (for her safety). I don;t thing the sheriff was too confident of the womans right to be there either. I kind of think he told her she was on her own.
  • 05-08-2007, 07:35 PM
    deadlock
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    I was reading one of the sites this is posted and they spoke of e coli levels in area water which apparently they believe were traceable to this guys property.



    This was in LaPorte county Indiana if the gossip was correct. The landowner did sue for the trespass but was rebuffed by the judge.

    Not sure of any of the facts, simply repeating what some of the folks were posting.

    Did anybody notice the sheriff did not enter the property (short of the minor thing at the driveway) even after the woman was cruising all over the land?

    It would seem if the woman did have rights to be there, given the aggressiveness of the landowner, he would have had rights to accompany the woman (for her safety). I don;t thing the sheriff was too confident of the womans right to be there either. I kind of think he told her she was on her own.

    According to the CDC health inspectors (employed by our county health departments have Consitutional 'police' power. They are front line inspectors of threats of bioterrorism as well as those who don't abide by laws that protect public from health hazards (ie drinking water contaminated with animal feces or decomposing matter). You cannot sue them, they have immunity.

    The Sheriff is obligated to watch the immediate threat to the inspector. My guess the inspector had done sufficient homework before arriving on the property and knew just where she wanted to go.

    Also, he may have been making sure the property owner didn't leave.

    But my first reaction to the deputy was he didn't have any idea what he was doing.
  • 05-08-2007, 08:16 PM
    jk
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    Quote:

    Quoting deadlock
    View Post
    Also, he may have been making sure the property owner didn't leave.

    But my first reaction to the deputy was he didn't have any idea what he was doing.

    ok DL, I can see most of your post but what right would the officer have to prevent the property owner from leaving?

    and I definately agree about the sheriff.

    I still have a hard time believing or accepting the health inspector had any legal rights to trespass to inspect the property unless there was just cause. I can tell you this, that if an inspector did come on my property without permission or warrant, I would be here looking for aid to get my ass out of jail. I would not allow it until i could no longer resist it.

    It is my property and you better have a good and articulatable justification to enter my property. She failed to justify her inspection. I will not accept anybody wandering willy nilly about my property without that justification.

    and no, I am not a closet anarchist, merely a person that believes in the rights of the citizens of this country.

    btw; I was cruising around trying to find out anything about this. I found a site that reported the property was condemned and the guy was trying to sell it for $22k (I believe the acceptable currency was gold I didn't bother to read to much in depth)
  • 05-08-2007, 11:25 PM
    deadlock
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    ok DL, I can see most of your post but what right would the officer have to prevent the property owner from leaving?

    and I definately agree about the sheriff.

    I still have a hard time believing or accepting the health inspector had any legal rights to trespass to inspect the property unless there was just cause. I can tell you this, that if an inspector did come on my property without permission or warrant, I would be here looking for aid to get my ass out of jail. I would not allow it until i could no longer resist it.

    It is my property and you better have a good and articulatable justification to enter my property. She failed to justify her inspection. I will not accept anybody wandering willy nilly about my property without that justification.

    and no, I am not a closet anarchist, merely a person that believes in the rights of the citizens of this country.

    btw; I was cruising around trying to find out anything about this. I found a site that reported the property was condemned and the guy was trying to sell it for $22k (I believe the acceptable currency was gold I didn't bother to read to much in depth)

    Of course we all have the right to privacy and to receive notice of inspection as a result of a complaint. Public health is civil not criminal and their actions are in the interest of the public to prevent disease, harm, etc. Not to punish prior acts. The officer wasn't there to arrest the guy, he was there to protect the inspector.

    It was a joke guy with the camera was going to leave.

    The officer did appear to be blocking the driveway as if the guy was going to "escape". The video I saw had him operating that camera and no way was he going anywhere. She was not there to press charges against the guy. Public health doesn't work like that.

    http://www2a.cdc.gov/phlp/publaw.asp
    Click on "Federal: Public Health Service Act"
    Scroll down to III General Power and duties of public health service.

    I agree with you that you wouldn't want someone arriving on your property to snoop. But tell me what you would do if-
    you live in a rural area and your land is part of a development that borders on a farm with livestock. There is a flood and animals have died on the farm. You don't know what happened to them but about three months later there are small pools of water the kids wade in and they get sick. Blood vessels on the backs of their legs are streaked all the way to the knees. Fevers.

    Who ya gonna call? No. Not ghostbusters.

    The public health department isn't going to arrive on the neighbor's property unannounced. They are there to protect the public from disease and good cause is the case of e coli infections the kids recently acquired. They try to find the source and clean it up.

    My experience with them is they say exactly that. There has been an outbreak of ... and several children have gotten ... We are attempting to find the source in the area. And they ask permission to look around on your property.

    Check out the CDC website. You'll see that they take no legal action against anyone. It is frustrating to alot of people who want someone sanctioned by the CDC.
  • 05-08-2007, 11:36 PM
    jk
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    but this woman would not tell the land owner why she wanted to inspect the area. That wouldn't go far at my house.

    and as far as your link, I saw nothing applicable to this situation or powers that were granted to allow such an invasion. I may have missed it but I didn;t see it myself.
  • 05-08-2007, 11:45 PM
    deadlock
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    but this woman would not tell the land owner why she wanted to inspect the area. That wouldn't go far at my house.

    She was there the day before. He gave her a hard time. I couldn't hear anything she said because of his mouth running constantly. He never let her answer a question or say anything (except that she wasn't going to tell him her last name). If it were me, I would have been frustrated with his behaving like that. Telling her he was going to sue her for trespassing.

    Think he'd act like that if a gas line was leaking on his property? He'd be complaining the inspector was trespassing? Foolish.
  • 05-09-2007, 06:14 AM
    aaron
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    The administrative search exception to the Fourth Amendment originally grew out of highly regulated businesses (e.g., food service), where inspection was made a condition of doing business. In contrast with a criminal investigation where individualized suspicion is required, administrative searches do not require individualized suspicion (e.g., every restaurant is subject to periodic health inspection, no matter how clean it looks.) Under current law, even where there is a significant law enforcement aspect to the inspection, you do not need a search warrant to conduct an administrative search.

    If a health inspector is trying to trace the source of e. coli contamination, the inspector will attempt to determine sources of the contamination. In a rural area like this, an obvious possible source is a septic field. For the inspector to then investigate area properties, with a focus on those where there is excavation in the area of septic tanks or fields, is legitimate.

    Similarly, although apparently not relevant in this specific case, if permitting is required before such excavation is allowed, a government inspector can investigate unauthorized investigation, cite the owner for excavating without a permit, and even get a court order prohibiting further work until a permit was properly obtained. And, of course, there would ordinarily be an inspection of the finished work. No warrants required.
  • 05-09-2007, 09:50 AM
    jk
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    didn't mean to sound argumentative to all and I do understand what y'all are saying. I just don;t agree with it and that's my right as a US citizen dammit:)


    The odd part is the sheriff did not come onto the property. As protection for the health worker, I would presume he had every right to accompany the woman. Not in an investigatory manner but as protection for the woman only. Not sure how any evidence seen would be handled but that is another thread.

    Obviously, this entire situation was handled poorly. I believe the sheriff did not know what actually was allowable and what wan;t. Both of the gov. employees should have had more direction and support from the local district attorney;s office or even the states AG. This could have gotten real ugly if the landowner was just a bit more off kilter mentally. If a gov employee chooses to take an action, they should be very well informed as to it's correctness and be able to articulate that to the citizen involved. The sheriff simply repeating the "if you don;t have anything to hide" BS makes him look like he feels he is in the wrong. He needs to be able to state support for the actions, even if that meant coming back a different day.

    want a laugh? spellcheck accepted "y'all" and "dammit" without question. The program writer must be from the south:D
  • 05-09-2007, 10:19 AM
    deadlock
    Re: Trespass by a Health Inspector
    "Wisdom lies
    neither in fixity
    nor in change,
    but in the dialectic
    between the two."

    Octavio Paz
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