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Going to Trial for a Speeding Ticket Without a Lawyer
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Washington
I have a contested hearing in 2 days, and am representing myself.
I received a speeding ticket 2 months ago from a state patrol officer. He said in the report that I was going 58 in a 40 mph zone, which was a highway.
He listed it as S. SR 3 m.p. 34. H
He didn't state where in m.p. 34 it was, and from looking at this map https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/to...03/003X034.pdf of the m.p. 34 on sr 3 it is unclear which speed point it is to me.
SR 3 turns into highway 16, and one part of it is 40 mph, another is 50mph, and another is 60 mph.
When he stopped me, I told him that I thought the speed limit was 60 (I did) and did not see any posted signs. He wrote this in the report. "The defendant advised that she did not see any speed limit signs. She also advised that she thought the speed limit was 60 mph."
He wrote that he obtained the radar reading using the front antenna, that the defendant's vehicle was the only moving vehicle on the radar's beam (which I also find debatable, since there was other traffic at the time near me), and the defendant's vehicle passed my patrol car.
He used the radar in the moving mode, and my vehicle was receding his location.
He signed and dated it. I checked the radar certificates and they look current, th radar listed was BEE III radar #R2217
Although, on the next page it says he used assigned tuning forks #856712 -20 mp and #856753 -50 mp to check his smd devices at the beginning and end of his shift.
There was also a paragraph with the Pro Laser III SMD #L1544 but I am not sure if he used it since none of he boxes in that paragraph were checked and nothing was listed for the mph, so I think it waas just the bee radar.
****SO, the only things I think I could argue is that I saw the 60 mph sign (maybe), either that or didn't see any posted signs (which probably won't work). And that there were other cars at the time and a lot of traffic with my car, so it would have been hard to have my car be the only moving vehicle in the radar's beam.
I don't think or don't know how to prove anything about the radar, since the certificates were current.
I'm not subpoenaing the officer, and the prosecuting attorney will be present since this is in Kitsap County at the Kitsap Court.
Are any of these arguments good?
I have not had any tickets on my record. I have been advised that I can try to get this down to a non-moving violation, and the clerk at the prosecutor's office said I would probably get inattention to driving, which she said doesn't go on your record ( but she could be wrong).
I would prefer to get it either dismissed, if anyone can see any arguments for that, or get it reduced to a non-moving violation like a parking violation that won't go on my record.
I also can't afford to pay the ticket since I'm a student at the moment, but the court clerk said that they do sometimes offer community service options which I would request for whatever fine I end up getting.
I don't think I want to do a deferral, since it costs $210, which is a few dollars more than my ticket, and I want to try to avoid paying anything at all. A deferall also means you have to be really careful for an entire year not to get another ticket, and it goes on your driving record.
I'm also thinking maybe I should write a letter to the judge and to the prosecutor in advance, so I have what I want to say written out in case I get nervous.
***Does anyone have any suggestions for me for what to say in court, or if there is anything that can help get my ticket dismissed? Or if anything I said above is valid, or is wrong?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
It’s much better if we can see the exact wording and checkboxes on the officer’s sworn statement plus the ticket, and the way you do that is to upload digital photos or scans (with your personal id and citation number redacted) to any free image hosting site and link them here in your thread.
Based on information you have provided so far I’d be inclined to suggest that you arrive a little early and ask the prosecutor if he/she can amend to the Kitsap County ordinance 46.02.050 Inattentive driving, which is local and will not go on your state record (clerk is correct on that). It carries a fine of $138 which is less than a deferred finding.
I would definitely NOT write a letter to the judge and prosecutor. As to your argument about speed points, perhaps others can comment but I sort of doubt that will work.
You will get the most help if you can post your discovery materials. There might be a possibility for a preliminary motion to suppress the radar but we need to see the discovery firsthand.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
If you drove through the section near the SR16 interchange, that is the 40mph stretch he clocked you in. That section is well marked in both direction on streetviewmap so if you did not know the speed limit that is your fault. He states your car was the only one in the beam. You would need compelling evidence, besides your testimony that this is untrue. Also, the standard for conviction is not reasonable doubt but preponerance of the evidence which makes it harder for the defendant to win. As Searcher said we would need to see the officer’s statement to see if other defenses are possible.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Thank you guys so much for your quick responses!
Here is the discovery:
Page 1: http://i64.tinypic.com/2lx74hc.jpg
Page 2: http://i64.tinypic.com/3312lw8.jpg
Page 3: http://i66.tinypic.com/rjf7yv.jpg
Citation: http://i67.tinypic.com/vsjqzk.jpg
Thank you searcher99 for your quick reply and good advice! How would I go about getting a motion? As far as the letter, I just meant a letter I bring with me to the hearing to give to the judge so they could read it first.
Here is the discovery:
Page 1: http://i64.tinypic.com/2lx74hc.jpg
Page 2: http://i64.tinypic.com/3312lw8.jpg
Page 3: http://i66.tinypic.com/rjf7yv.jpg
Citation: http://i67.tinypic.com/vsjqzk.jpg
searcher99, you said that the Kitsap County ordinance 46.02.050 Inattentive driving would not go on my state driving record, but would it go on my record at all? I don't know much about driving records, since I've never had to pull mine up and don't have anything on my record other than a good driving history. Does the driving record include counties or cities? Would it still be something an insurance company would see?
I consulted with an attorney today and he said that the Inattentive Driving could now be reportable, since companies are mining court convictions, and an insurance company could ding me, and there may be a law that it will be reportable, so it might be best to get a nonmoving violation such as a mechanical failure.
Does anyone know if this is correct?
I found an error on my citation. Could this be grounds for dismissal?
Where he put my address on the line under my driver's license, it had the wrong letters. I have a po box with a PMB and a number next to it, and it said PMD with no number next to it.
Under the address setion where it said owner/company if other than driver, he did put the correct address, he put the po box with the pmb number and the number, as well as just the po box by itself listing it.
However, since he got my address incorrect on one line, directly under the top line of my driver's license, would that be grounds for dismissal?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
No, there's 0% chance the corrupt judge dismisses any ticket for errors on a ticket. They don't let you off that easy since you're revenue to them.
I think this will be an uphill battle since there's a sign saying 40 and you admitting you thought it was 60. Next time take the 5th and don't answer any questions cause they will always use them against you.
Good luck though!
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
A motion is preliminary to the hearing, and is instigated when you “move” for the judge to decide about matters such as court rules or admissibility of evidence. In Washington State, successful defenses to traffic infractions often involve getting a dismissal before any evidence (such as the officer’s statement or your testimony) is presented. You should announce that you have a motion immediately when your case is called, before the officer’s statement is read into the record and before you are sworn in for testimony. If granted, you can move for dismissal due to lack of evidence.
The problem with you presenting a letter is that it probably will be regarded as evidence by the judge. Your best chance is to win before the evidence phase even starts, or make a prior deal with the prosecutor to amend, in which case you will not need to say much of anything except agree to the lesser charge.
The information given to you by the attorney regarding inattentive driving is new to me but could well be a recent trend with insurance companies. For whatever its worth, one of our long-time posters has a recent comment on that subject.
The officer’s statement is boilerplate but otherwise looks to be fairly thorough. It’s probably a gamble but there is one thing I saw that might have a shot with a sympathetic judge:
Preliminary motion to exclude or suppress the evidence of speed due to lack of foundation: The officer states: “
The speed indicated by the radar was verified with my patrol vehicle’s certified speedometer and they corresponded.” Since this was part of a required test for moving radar, authentication of that evidence should include identification of the patrol vehicle pursuant to
ER 901(b)(9) in order to check the validity of the speedometer certification similar to the identification of the radar and tuning forks.
The error you pointed out regarding your address could also be possibly used as a long shot defense. IRLJ 2.1(b)(2) requires that a moving violation notice of infraction include “The name, address, date of birth, sex, physical characteristics, and, for a notice of traffic infraction, the operator's license number of the defendant…”
The above is a sufficiency defense based on IRLJ 3.1(d) but the problem is that you must show that the error prejudices your substantial rights, which seems unlikely. Probably the judge will consider it to be inconsequential. A foundational defense such as the one I mentioned earlier is more likely to work.
It’s your call whether to contest or make a deal with the prosecutor, but there is one more possibility. At the beginning you could ask the judge whether a deferred finding would still be available after preliminary motions are heard. If he/she agrees, then you can always fall back on the deferral.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
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acai
No, there's 0% chance the corrupt judge dismisses any ticket for errors on a ticket.
So judges who do not cancel tickets are corrupt?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
acai
No, there's 0% chance the corrupt judge dismisses any ticket for errors on a ticket. They don't let you off that easy since you're revenue to them.
Not familiar with WA traffic court are you? That happens all the time. Well, mostly on their statement but the citation itself as well.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Would speeding while passing also be a good defense? The officer's statement said I was passing his vehicle, and at the time I remember that I sped up to pass a slow moving vehicle. I don't have any video/photo evidence though. Under RCW 46.61.425
So searcher99, you are saying that the officer should have put his patrol vehicle and did not, and this could be a preliminary motion to exclude or suppress the evidence of speed due to lack of foundation that I will say to the judge before the prosecutor examines me or the judge looks at the evidence?
Also, when speaking to the prosecutor before court begins, I was thinking I was going to tell her that I am currently a student and cannot afford to pay any fines, and will be asking the judge for community service which the court clerk told me they grant. Therefor, I would like to negotiate and amend my charge to a nonmoving violation that will not appear on my record, such as a parking violation, which is in a reasonable fee range for me. Is that appropriate to say, or how should I word it?
I was also told I can request a continuance if the prosecutor is unwilling to amend anything and seems unreasonable, but at what time and how would I request this? Like, would I request this near the end of the trial or in the middle if I'm in over my head? I'm assuming I would request this so I can have more time to build a better case or hire an attorney.
Also, do you think I should request a continuance of my trial now, since it is tomorrow 12/12 in the afternoon, or go through with it based on the arguments I have?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Read all of RCW 46.61.425. It must be a road with one lane of traffic in each direction. That is not the case here, so it does not apply. You must also demonstrate that the officer's car was going less than the 40 mph speed limit. You have no evidence of that.
I can't help you with your other questions and will let more knowledgeable folks answer them.
And to Acai, a couple of year's ago my wife had a speeding ticket dismissed because of a mistake in the radar unit's serial number on the officer's report. So yes they do dismiss tickets when the mistake is significant.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
I called the court clerk today and she said that generally in court submittal errors, such as the address wrong on one line of my citation, don't usually waive a ticket.
She said the cop is not required to provide the cop car vehicle number, and she said that would also fall under a submittal error. She said the best bet would be to prove I wasn't speeding.
I asked about the speed points since m.p. 34 is very general and there are different poits with different speed limits within it, and she said generally that doesn't work as a defense.
She said that I could speak with the prosecutor in court, before the judge arrives, about amending the citation to a nonmoving violation that won't go on my record.
She didn't know if the inattention to driving does or doesn't show up on the driving record, although before a prosecutor receptionist said it didn't.The court clerk also said the judge offers a deferral option, although the prosecutor can offer more options.
Again, though, they are not legal professionals, and she could also be instructed to say that to get people to ask for a deferral.
What non-moving violations do not go on one's driving record and don't increase premiums? The only one's I'm aware of are parking violations. I'm not sure if mechanical violations, such as a taillight being out, would not go on one's record, but I would appreciate a list of possible non-moving violations that don't go on the record so I know what to choose when negotiating. :)
Here is the first page generic letter from the prosecutor's office of the discovery that I didn't include before:
http://i63.tinypic.com/eb53r7.jpg
I consulted with a couple more lawyers and they both confirmed that the inattention to driving is getting reported on driving records as of September 2018.
One person told me that in Kitsap the judge generally does not go for the submittal (i.e. incorrect address or cop not providing cop car) errors and my best bet is to work something out with the prosecutor.
**I would like to know what non-moving violations that do not appear on one's driving record that I could request from the prosecutor. ***
If anyone has taken a look at the radar information from the cop and can find anything done erroneously, please let me know.
If anyone can find a higher speed limit in the speed points that I mentioned for m.p. 34, like as in this link https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/to...03/003X034.pdf please let me know.
Do I address the prosecutor with a special title? Should I not respond at all except to say, "I don't recall," when cross-examined?
My court case is 12/12 in the afternoon, wish me luck and any good talking points or how to properly address the prosecutor (like words to say or how to address him/her) would be appreciated!
Did you see my last comment on page 2, searcher 99?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Just like I said they're not going to dismiss your ticket based on something as trivial as writing the address on the wrong line or anything like that. Cop who pulled me over wrote the wrong court date (Sunday) and other errors yet the corrupt judge wouldn't dismiss it.
It may sound funny but I prepared for court by watching tons of Youtube videos on what to expect in traffic court, how to cross-examine, how to dress, etc. Hey they came in handy!
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
acai
Just like I said they're not going to dismiss your ticket based on something as trivial as writing the address on the wrong line or anything like that. Cop who pulled me over wrote the wrong court date (Sunday) and other errors yet the corrupt judge wouldn't dismiss it.
It may sound funny but I prepared for court by watching tons of Youtube videos on what to expect in traffic court, how to cross-examine, how to dress, etc. Hey they came in handy!
If all the judges are so corrupt why bother?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Thanks for the information from the attorneys about inattention tickets. I’d be curious if they are speaking about all counties with that ordinance, or just Kitsap?
Regarding court clerks, I’d be very skeptical about anything they say outside of procedural information. The best way to find out what works in a particular court is to attend a session when attorneys will be representing traffic infraction clients, and take notes. Clerks can usually tell you when that will be. Of course you would need a continuance to do that.
The other thing that is quite helpful is to get familiar with rules such as the ones linked previously in this thread. If you see a possible rule violation it never hurts to try moving for suppression and/or dismissal regardless of what the court clerk thinks your chances are.
Quote:
Quoting
lawchick7
She said the cop is not required to provide the cop car vehicle number, and she said that would also fall under a submittal error. She said the best bet would be to prove I wasn't speeding.
I disagree, and she should not be giving legal advice. It depends on what is in the officer’s statement. For radar tickets, the radar/tuning fork id’s are always required to lay proper foundation, and sometimes vehicle/speedometer id’s are required, especially when speed is measured by pace.
In your case the officer used his radar in moving mode, and so was required to compare the radar patrol speed with his speedometer. Because he made a point of stating “my patrol vehicle’s certified speedometer” he was obviously implying that certification was important for foundation, and if that is true then he needs to provide sufficient identifying info. Otherwise his statement is meaningless and you can move for suppression due to lack of foundation. He went there. Sometimes a more thorough statement can provide extra defenses that a less detailed statement would not have.
Pro se defendants typically never understand that they should try any preliminary motions they can possibly think of before attempting to prove they weren’t speeding. There’s no downside, and most attorneys actually win on motions.
Everything I’ve said is probably mute however if your primary objective is to keep it off your record, which is especially important if you are young. If that’s the case then speaking to the prosecutor is probably the safest, and he or she should know about non-moving violations that might be available.
You will still have the option to contest if you don’t like what the prosecutor offers. As for cross examination I would really hope that you never get to that phase. If preliminary motions fail you could even possibly ask for a continuance to better prepare your case.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
I still want to know what's so corrupt about refusing to dismiss a ticket.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
cbg
I still want to know what's so corrupt about refusing to dismiss a ticket.
They said that particular corrupt judge would not dismiss the ticket over a technical error. They did not say that not dismissing the ticket is what makes the judge corrupt, those are your words. They then generalized that this is because [all] judges see defendants as revenue.
I realize you're just trying to prove an irrelevant point, but since you're so insistent, you may want to read the statement a little more carefully.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
No, I am asking what it is that makes this particular judge corrupt. The post appears to be saying that the judge is corrupt because he refused to dismiss the ticket. I am looking for clarification - is that what the OP believes?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
cbg I never mentioned anything about judges being corrupt. If you read page one in the comments, you can read acai's comment. And read through further comments.
Not sure why people are bothering with that comment instead of giving advice.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
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Quoting
lawchick7
cbg I never mentioned anything about judges being corrupt.
cbg never said you were saying that.
Quote:
Quoting
lawchick7
If you read page one in the comments, you can read acai's comment.
That is who she quoted and who she was speaking to.
Quote:
Quoting
lawchick7
Not sure why people are bothering with that comment instead of giving advice.
Something was said and someone wanted clarification. Forum posts can sometimes wander off like that.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
cbg
No, I am asking what it is that makes this particular judge corrupt.
That may be what you want to know, but what you asked was, "I still want to know what's so corrupt about refusing to dismiss a ticket."
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
searcher99
As for cross examination I would really hope that you never get to that phase. If preliminary motions fail you could even possibly ask for a continuance to better prepare your case.
In WA the officer shows up only if subpoenaed by the defendant. The only evidence presented by the state is the officer's statement. There is no one to cross exam unless the defendant subpoenas the officer. Any defense outside of motions attacks the officer's statement.
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Quote:
Quoting
joef
In WA the officer shows up only if subpoenaed by the defendant. The only evidence presented by the state is the officer's statement. There is no one to cross exam unless the defendant subpoenas the officer. Any defense outside of motions attacks the officer's statement.
I was referring to the OP getting cross examined by the prosecutor, who will be present as mentioned by the OP in post #1, and also I was responding to the OP’s question in post #11.
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lawchick7
I'm not subpoenaing the officer, and the prosecuting attorney will be present since this is in Kitsap County at the Kitsap Court.
Quote:
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lawchick7
Should I not respond at all except to say, "I don't recall," when cross-examined?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Thank you everyone for the advice, and especially thank you searcher99!
So I had my hearing today. The prosecutor just listed on a board 3 options for everyone in the room before the judge entered, people could either get the ticket reduced to a nonmoving violation, specifically driving with expired tabs, or they could get a deferral, or they could contest it in court with the judge.
I went up to talk to her to see if she could change the nonmoving violation to some other violation such as a mechanical violation or a parking violation since my tabs are and have always been kept current, but she said that was all she could offer. She also said I could go to the clerk's room to see if I qualified for community service, which I did.
I did read her some of my grounds for dismissal just to see what she had to say about it. She said the address was irrelevant and said since I was served the ticket in-person that was irrelevant. She said she had never heard of the argument about needing to have the cop car number listed, re the statutes that searcher99 presented for not having the cop car and cop car radar reading.
I asked about the points since m.p. 34 was very broad, but didn't show her the map with the different points that I listed.
She seemed very adamant that she was not going to dismiss my charge, didn't seem to want to hear what I had to say or found objections to it, and it seemed like she was only doing the 3 options listed.
At least my ticket was reduced to a nonmoving violation though, and I can work it off in community service. The prosecutor did say that all nonmoving violations show up on your driving record. Although I know that parking and camera infractions don't, but maybe those are the only one's?
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Re: Trial in 2 Days, What Should I Do
Thanks for updating us, and I think you did good work dealing with your first ticket. It wasn’t an easy one to find defenses for, but you’ve kept it from raising insurance and your deferral remains available in case you need it later. Also you provided information about inattentive driving that I will try to investigate further. Although I know it’s done a lot, it nevertheless bothers me that people should be expected to admit to completely irrelevant non-moving offenses such as expired tabs.
The defense I brought up regarding the speedometer was probably too risky for your situation, and more suited to someone with court experience who might be willing to appeal a negative decision to Superior Court, which involves work and expense. If it had been a pace ticket where the speedometer is the primary speed measuring device, there would be an excellent chance of dismissal if the officer failed to id his vehicle or if no certification document was provided by prosecution (such as in this previous post).
It’s more of a grey area when the speedometer is only used to check the moving radar, but I still believe the check is invalid without an available speedometer cert. Then it becomes a question of how critical that check is for foundation. Prosecutors will usually say that it’s not, and also some judges but not all.