Disputing Information Provided on a Speeding Ticket

Hi,
I received a VC 22350 violation ticket today in CA. The description says "Prima Facie Speed". I was looking at the notice provided by the officer and there is incorrect information listed on the ticket. For Weather/Road Conditions/Traffic Condition its mentioned as Rain/Wet/Med. It was not raining. There was light rain previous night and the road was damp/wet (no puddles or stagnant water). Also the traffic was light as there were no cars ahead of me and behind me. Is there any way to point this now? Also, is there a way to prove that the weather conditions mentioned on the ticket is incorrect? Any past weather data I can provide? It was cloudy but not raining.
Also, my speed on the ticket is cited as 65 MPH in a 40 MPH zone which is not accurate. I was above the speed limit but was between 50-55 as I had just taken a left turn from an internal street and the cop stopped me few hundred meters after the turn. Is there a way to contest the ticket as I did not feel that it was unsafe driving as there was no one in front of me and no pedestrians and at no point I was losing control of the vehicle. Also, its a 4 lane (2 lanes each side) highway and a slight downward slope. Hence after taking the turn and accelerating (momentarily), I realized it and slowed down but the cop was already behind me.
I have not received the ticket in the mail yet. Is it worth contesting it as even if found guilty, the cost should have been lower as I was not going 15 MPH and certainly not 25 MPH above the speed limit as listed on the ticket? The officer did not mentioned how he measured my speed. On the ticket there is a LIDAR box and its empty.

Regards.

The descriptions are subjective and are merely notes for the officer. Unless the officer will testify that the road was slippery or otherwise hazardous, those items should make little difference in the case. Doing 50-55 in a 40 MPH zone is sufficient to be guilty of VC 22350. You can always admit to the actual speed and save yourself about $100 on the fines, but, that's your call.

Keep in mind that the speed the officer cited you for may not be the speed you were traveling when YOU observed him - only when HE observed YOU. The slope and number of lanes does not make any real difference in that regard.

As for possible defenses, sure, there are a few. The most common is to look into the speed survey to ascertain whether it is valid or not. The second is to try and argue that your speed was safe for conditions (not always an easy thing to do, especially if there was any traffic and dampness on the road); possible, but not generally a winning defense.

You mention you have not gotten the "ticket in the mail"???? But, you said he gave you a ticket? Are you referring to the so-called "courtesy notice"? Keep in mind that you might never get a courtesy notice, so you might want to check on the citation every few days. If you intend to challenge the cite, be sure to appear on or before the court date listed on the citation. Also, if you wish to start with a trial by written declaration, check with the court to find out about the local process for that. Keep in mind that taking the case to trial may cost you the possibility of traffic school, so that should be a consideration if you want to avoid the possible insurance hit. And, yes, you can always go to court and admit to a speed of 15 MPH or less and hope for the requisite fine reduction that accompanies such a speed (should save you about $100).

Thank you so much.

I mentioned the number of lanes as this is not a small local street and could be a speed trap (speed survey) candidate as this is a highway and normally its safe to drive at 50 MPH. This was on Highway 238 in Fremont, CA. But if I am to argue on that, I was concerned that the incorrect information about the weather and traffic conditions could be an issue and wanted to see if I can provide any evidence on the weather atleast. Does the speed survey, if not valid, alone suffice as a credible defense for the case or will the conditions listed be also taken into consideration incase of an invalid survey?

Yes. I was referring to the "Courtesy notice". Thanks for reminding me on checking the citation incase the mail does not arrive.

About Traffic school, if I go ahead with the TBD and am found guilty will I be able to file for TDN and go to the court before the trial and pled no contest or guilty and request for traffic school before the case goes to trial?

Also, its not listed how the office measured the speed. There is a LIDAR box but its empty and the speed limit board in the are says radar enforced. Is there a way to know how he came up with the approx speed. Also the "Speed Approx" box has "> 65" not sure if ">" is a marker or does it imply greater than 65. I looked at a sample paper form and looks like a marker. But am not sure.

On the traffic schoool subject, I see arraignment will not be possible after TBD so have to go through the TDN and either pled guilt or no contest and request for traffic school.

If yhe radar /lidar box on the citation is empty, chances are he paced you. In that case, speed trap laws do not apply. However, the basic speed law defense, that your speed was reasonable and prudent for conditions, applies for sure if you drove 55mph or less. I would suggest writing your tbd based on that. Do mention the exact speed you travelled, if known and less than 55mph. Obvioisly, the slower, the better. Do mention it was a divided higway, because that makes 50-55mph more reasonable. If found guilty, call the court and request the officer's tbd statement. That will tell you if he used radar or not, and help you plan TDN strategy. You can ask for traffic school if you lose TDN. I wouldn't plead no contest. If you nonethwless don't want to do TDN, go to walk-in court and ask to be re-arraigned. That way you'll be able to talk to a judge and ask for traffic school.

Thank you so much @zeljo. Is there a way before the TBD to get information about how the speed was determined? Either paced or using a Radar/LIDAR? If a Radar/LIDAR was used and if the engineering and traffic survey (ETS) is in my favor, I would want to use that as a defense for TBD. I have already requested CalTrans for the ETS.

SO if I get you correctly, even after losing TBD, I have a chance to request for re-arraignment and plead guilty and request for traffic school and I do not HAVE to go to TDN and plead guilt to get traffic school?

You can certainly request informal discovery, but the first thing I'd do is look at the NOTA (the ticket) and see if you can see any indication there. Sometimes there are tell tales.

The fact that there's a downward slope doesn't justify going faster.

After a TBD loss, you request a TRIAL DE NOVO. It will result in a trial date being set. There's no "arraignment" in this case. You've already are considered as having pleaded not guilty.

If you were cited for CVC22350 and were exceeding the posted limit, more than likely what speed is "reasonable and safe" was previously determined by a traffic engineering survey, which established that speed limit as being the reasonable and safe threshold.

In such a case, your personal opinion as to what is reasonable and safe is meaningless, unless you are a qualified traffic engineer who has conducted your own survey that can credibly challenge the existing one.

Get a copy of the survey for that road and study it. Then determine if you have the expertise, training and background necessary to conduct your own survey and successfully challenge it. Otherwise, traffic school may look very tempting.

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Yes, you can mail an Informal Discovery Request to the police agency that issued the citation, Attn. Custodian of Records. Request specifically the copy of the reverse side of the citation. One format you can use is here . Or you can get from Amazon the excellent book "Fight Your Ticket and Win in California" by David Brown.

Also, officers often write on the reverse side of citation in a shothand code meant to repel ticket warriors like yourself. Feel free to upload it here if you need help deciphering.

Experts,
Need your help on this. As I had mentioned earlier, I received this ticket on Highway 238 (Mission Blvd) in Fremont near Cadencia St. I requested CalTrans for Engineering and Survey report. They send me the report which could be found at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1brv...ew?usp=sharing. Looks like they have sent me the report for a stretch of Highway 238 in the city of Hayward. Is it an incorrect report or am I missing something?

Regards.

Yep, that's the wrong survey. You'll have to try again with CALTRANS.

Thanks. Let me try and get the correct one from them and post it here.

One question I had was, on the citation that the cop gave me, its written that I need to report to the court before 12/31/2018. I have not received the mail about the ticket yet and I am not able to pull up the case on the court website. So should I contact the clerk of the court to check and request an extension?
Also, if I request an extension, can I still have an option for re-arraignment and please guilty/no contest or if I request an extension, I have to appear in court or do a TBD and then TDN?

THere's no obligation that you receive anything in the mail. The courtesy notice is not obligatory, it's just a courtesy.
You definitely must continue to contact the court before the appearance date (or appear). The appearance date won't be the trial anyhow, just the arraignment.
There's no "rearraignment." You say anything else other than "GUILTY" and it will be scheduled for trial.

If you want to do a TBD, then you must apply for that prior to the appearance date as well. In the likely event that you lose the TBD, you then can request the TDN (which will schedule a trial, a TBD is an implicit not-guilty plea_

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Quoting bpat

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One question I had was, on the citation that the cop gave me, its written that I need to report to the court before 12/31/2018. I have not received the mail about the ticket yet and I am not able to pull up the case on the court website. So should I contact the clerk of the court to check and request an extension?

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I don't have any opinion about whether you should do this, but what do you need extended and why? You said the ticket gives you until 12/31/18 to go to the court for this. That's 18 days from now (although, given the holidays, I'd take care of this next week if I were you).

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Quoting bpat

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if I request an extension, can I still have an option for re-arraignment and please guilty/no contest or if I request an extension, I have to appear in court or do a TBD and then TDN?

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Requesting or obtaining an extension will not affect your plea options.

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Quoting zeljo

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Yes, you can mail an Informal Discovery Request to the police agency that issued the citation, Attn. Custodian of Records. Request specifically the copy of the reverse side of the citation. One format you can use is here . Or you can get from Amazon the excellent book "Fight Your Ticket and Win in California" by David Brown.

Also, officers often write on the reverse side of citation in a shothand code meant to repel ticket warriors like yourself. Feel free to upload it here if you need help deciphering.

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The format link you provided is not working. Gives an "Access denied" error. Any other template I can use to request Informal Discovery Request?

The link you quoted worked for me but it is a commercial site and shouldn't have been posted here.

Here is a sample discovery request and proof of service .

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Quoting bpat

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Thanks. Let me try and get the correct one from them and post it here.

One question I had was, on the citation that the cop gave me, its written that I need to report to the court before 12/31/2018. I have not received the mail about the ticket yet and I am not able to pull up the case on the court website. So should I contact the clerk of the court to check and request an extension?
Also, if I request an extension, can I still have an option for re-arraignment and please guilty/no contest or if I request an extension, I have to appear in court or do a TBD and then TDN?

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Yes, you should contact the clerk and ask what gives with your case. If the due date is end of the month, they should have the citation by now. Most courts will give you one month extension, no questions asked. This changes nothing in terms of your rights and the strategy I suggested to you earlier in the thread. Most courts also have the TBD procedure posted on their web sites; you can follow that whether or not you've received the courtesy notice. But you should call the clerk first to make sure the case has been filed and get the proper case #.

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Quoting zeljo

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Here is a sample discovery request and proof of service .



Yes, you should contact the clerk and ask what gives with your case. If the due date is end of the month, they should have the citation by now. Most courts will give you one month extension, no questions asked. This changes nothing in terms of your rights and the strategy I suggested to you earlier in the thread. Most courts also have the TBD procedure posted on their web sites; you can follow that whether or not you've received the courtesy notice. But you should call the clerk first to make sure the case has been filed and get the proper case #.

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Thanks so much.

Hi All,
I received the new survey report from CalTrans. Looks like this should cover the stretch of the highway. I have uploaded the report at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lYn...ew?usp=sharing It says that the survey was done on 25th Sep 2008 and is valid for 10 years. There are a couple of letter dated 30th May 2016 and it states that the survey is valid till 25th Sep 2018. So am I reading it correctly that the survey has expired? Should I check to see if there is a new survey done? What should be the next steps?
I am still not sure what method the cop used to cite me as its not written on the citation and I have not received a letter in the mail yet nor its in the court system online. I will be doing a discovery request to get the information. The posted sign does say though "Speed Limit 40 (Radar enforced)".

You can ask for the traffic and engineering study in the discovery request to the police agency. They have to provide it for you if the cop used radar/lidar to determine your speed. And what they provide must be a valid one... the one you have found is indeed expired. If they used a radar/lidar and this is the only study available, it is grounds for dismissal as per CVC 40804 and 40805 .

If the cop did not use radar/lidar, though, these speed trap protections do not apply.

Hi,
I am planning to file a discovery request. Whom should i send the request to? Should just the police department be enough? Or do I need to send it to some one else as well? Also, just sending it by USPS and having a delivery confirmation be enough or do we need anything else for record purposes?

Thanks so much.

Yes, you would need to serve it on the police department. You can probably call them to determine exactly how and where to address it.

When you mail your request to the police department, mark the envelope "Attention Custodian of Records". That is the person responsible for addressing your request.

Include a copy of you citation, as doing so makes it easier to fulfill your request. Officers traditionally write their notes on the back side of their copy of the citation that was issued to you. That copy is kept in the citing officer's custody and must be manually searched by hand. Having a copy of the citation makes it easier for the officer to search.

If you are seeking discovery from a local police or sheriffs department I would suggest not using the sample discovery request Zeljo provided you. I say this for a couple of reasons. First, the language and terms used (MVARS) suggest it was written for someone seeking discovery from CHP. MVARS is an acronym specific to CHP and refers to audio and video patrol car recordings. However, it has no meaning in the terminology of local agencies and you may not get any video or audio, even though they may exist. Similarly, Zeljo's exemplar does not request copies of any personal recordings made by the citing officer.

As a former Custodian of Records I can tell you that while I am obligated to follow the law, I am not required to be on your side or assist you in your case. i may have a very good idea of everything what you want and need, but unless you specifically articulate each and every item being sought in your discovery request, you're not going to get it.

You may wish to seek the following in you discovery request:

When seeking informal discovery on a California traffic citation, mail a copy of your citation to the law enforcement agency that issued it. Clearly address the envelope to “Custodian of Records” and attach a letter indicating you are requesting informal discovery in connection with the enclosed citation. In addition to any items you feel are necessary to your defense, be sure to ask for:
1. A copy of the officer’s copy of the citation, including the back side containing any notes he may have made.
2. Copies of all other notes, reports and other documents prepared by the officer in connection with the matter.
3. If you were cited for speeding, copies of calibration records for all speed measuring devices used to determine your speed.
4. If you were cited for speeding, a copy of any traffic and engineering surveys for the highway in question (if applicable).
5. Copies of the patrol car dash cam video and audio recording of your stop (if any exist).
6. Copies of any personal audio recording the officer may have made during his contact with you.

Items 1 & 2 will give you an idea as to what the officer may testify to.
Item 3 will determine if the device used to determine your speed was recently calibrated.
Item 4 will probably not be applicable unless you were written for CVC 22350.
Items 5 & 6 are valuable because during the traffic stop, drivers tend to make all sorts of incriminating statements that the officer will offer in court if you deny having committed the violation. It’s difficult to convince the court you are innocent if the officer recorded you admitting the violation. Words mean things, so it’s best to know what you said ahead of time, to ensure you don’t make a fool of yourself in court.

In most cases, just sending it to the citing police agency (Attn Custodian of Records) will suffice. To be on the safe side, you may want to send to the district and city attorneys as well. Refer to (and read) the Proof of Service form that I uploaded Dec 13. You need to keep that for your records, and you need to have someone else put it in the mail box. Regular first class mail is fine. Again, read and understand Proof of Service, it tells you all you're asking. As for Informal Discovery Request itself, what I uploaded is a SAMPLE. You may need to edit the content in terms of the items requested but, other than that, the request (and proof of service) are completely proper. I have used them many times, and always received a response from the police agency. Except one time, that is, but, on that occasion, the cop did not even show up in court... which I think is no coincidence.

Thank you so much for your answers.

L-1,
So is there a doc template I should use or I can just write up a simple letter addressing it to the police department listing all the items I am requesting?

Thanks.

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Quoting bpat

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L-1,
So is there a doc template I should use or I can just write up a simple letter addressing it to the police department listing all the items I am requesting?

Thanks.

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A simple letter wil do it, however, you must articulate each and every one of the things you want. While the Custodian of Records is obliged to comply with requests that are authorized by law, they are not a mind reader and they represent the police department's interests, not yours. When I got informal discovery requests I saw a lot lot of things people failed to ask for that might have helped them, but because they didn't ask for them, I could not send them.

Hi L-1/Zeljo/Others,
Need your help reviewing the Informal discovery request letter (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T7z...ew?usp=sharing) and proof of service letter (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OKP...ew?usp=sharing) that I have drafted. I have masked personal information. Please provide your comments. Also, I have the following questions on these

1) In the Informal Discovery Request, do I have to provide the disclosure pursuant to Penal code 1054.3? Or can that be excluded from the letter? I have excluded it currently.
2) For delivery of proof of service, can my wife sign the letter or does it have to be someone else from outside the household?
3) In the Informal Discovery Request letter, I have mentioned "above-mentioned" defendant. Do I have to replace it everywhere with my name of that should be fine?
4) Do I send both the letter to all 3 places police department, city attorney and county attorney offices? Or do I just send the informal discovery letter to the police department and the proof of service to all 3? Also, do we need to send the letters to all 3 places?

Thanks so much for all your help.

1) You have to provide the disclosure pursuant to Penal code 1054.3.
2) It's better if you can get a friend to sign it. If you're not comfortable with that, your wife is fine too.
3) "Above-mentioned defendant" is fine.
4) You only send the copies of Informal Discovery Request to (all three) addressees. You keep Proof of Service for your records and use them to prove to the court, if necessary, you have served the Request as required by law.

I really need your help on this. I send the Informal discovery request letter to the citing agency i.e. Fremont Police Department and to the city Attorney and district attorney offices. Today, after about 1 1/2 weeks, since I have not received any response, I called the police department and asked to speak to the custodian of records. She said that we do not handle it. Once we write the citation you have to deal with the court. When I called he court to request an extension, as my date of appearance is before Feb 23rd, the clerk was able to extend it to March 27th. Then when I brought up the issue of the Informal discovery request with the Fremont department and what they said about it, the clerk said that they have it on file as of Jan 30th and the court will reply back to me before March 23rd. I am not sure, whether the clerk was talking about the Informal discovery request letter I sent. Does it end up with the court in this case as I did not sent it to the court but to the parties mentioned above. I was expecting a reply from the Fremont Police Department. Please let me know if this is possible or if the informal discovery request might be stuck somewhere.

By statute, the Fremont PD does not have to address your informal discovery request. In practice, most police departments WILL address it - either by prompting from the DA or City Attorney, or, on their own initiative. It may be that the DA or CA have not (maybe WILL not) sent them a notice asking they comply with the request, or that this is not the practice in Alameda County. If you feel you absolutely must have the discovery items requested by FPD in order to make a defense, you may have to ask the court to compel discovery from the agency.

Ok. Thanks. But is there a way for the request I sent to the Fremont PD, CA and DA to end up with the court? Because thats what the clerk told me that they received the letter on Jan 30th. I sent these letters on Jan 23rd to Fremont PD, CA and DA but not anything to the court. Sorry. But I am not aware about the process in this case.

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Quoting bpat

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Ok. Thanks. But is there a way for the request I sent to the Fremont PD, CA and DA to end up with the court? Because thats what the clerk told me that they received the letter on Jan 30th. I sent these letters on Jan 23rd to Fremont PD, CA and DA but not anything to the court. Sorry. But I am not aware about the process in this case.

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If they send their discovery to the court, then that would be ... bizarre. If so, it would be some form of local process that has no specific foundation in the law. But, sending discovery to the court does YOU no good, so why would they do it?

Just be sure you mailed your letter to the right PD. If you're not sure, call back and ask if it was indeed their officer that issued your citation. If so, and as long as you have your proof of service to PD and DA, you are fine. If the court clerk was indeed talking about your discovery request and that they would respond to you with it, they either got it from the DA or from the police. That is not your problem, though. If it is not provided to you by the time of court trial, you can and should, at the beginning of the trial, inform the judge of that and ask him to compel (sign the court order for) that discovery, which you then deliver (again with proof of service) to all the parties. At the same time, you should ask for a continuance to prepare your defense based on that information/evidence.

You really should have listened to my advice and done TBD first; then you would at least know whether he used the radar/lidar or not. Be that as it may, in the unlikely case that the judge refuses your request to compel and/or grant a continuance, be prepared to move for exclusion of the officer's testimony if he indeed used a radar. In that case, a traffic and engineering study is required evidence in order to convict, so the prosecution/PD MUST have it in its possession. If so, they are obligated to disclose it to you; since they did not, it must be excluded, or, at the very least provided to you, and then continuance granted in order for you to prepare.

It may also be worthwhile to give PD another call about the discovery request. It does sound very weird that they'd refer you to court about items that must be in their possession - such as the officer's notes, radar calibration records, etc. Normally officers do not forward that stuff to court (much less the DA) until the court trial, so how would the court have it now? Insist on speaking to the actual custodian of records or a supervisor. Whoever you talked to the first time may not have know what they were talking about, or misunderstood you.

Thank you so much cdwjava and zeljo.

zeljo,
I had asked for one time extension from the clerk and she extended the date from Feb 23rd to Mar 27th. In this case, I can still do a TDB by Mar 27th correct or do I have to do that before Feb 23rd? Or do I lose the right to TBD since the date is extended? Sorry am not aware about this.

Yes, you can still do TBD, and you have until Mar 27.

Hi All,
If the police department has not replied to the request for informal discovery can this be basis to include something in the TBD that might help the case? Also, is there a template for TBD for speed trap which I can refer to as I am starting to write up the TBD in a day or so?

Thanks.

I don't have a TBD template for speed trap, but your statement should have two basic points, IMO:

1) The highway/street had two or more lanes in each direction. The posted speed limit was 40mph, and you were driving no faster than 50mph (or 55mph, whichever is true) anywhere on that stretch of highway. The weather was clear, the road surface was dry, the traffic was light, and your speed was therefore perfectly safe for the conditions, thus not in violation of cvc 22350;

2) There is no valid traffic and engineering study conducted in the last 10 years justifying the posted speed limit. The last such study was conducted more than 10 years ago, and you retrieved it from CALTRANS (or wherever it came from). You can enclose a copy of the study... make sure it shows the date. Therefore, if citing officer determined your speed using a RADAR or LIDAR, the incident constituted a speed trap as per CVC 40802. The evidence thus obtained is therefore inadmissible as per CVC 40803 and the citing police officer is incompetent as a witness as per CVC 40804.

Doesn't the law say 5 years re: the engineering study?

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Quoting PayrolGuy

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Doesn't the law say 5 years re: the engineering study?

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It depends. I believe it is 5 if the officer had little radar/lidar training, 7 if he had more, and 10 if an engineer has certified there has been no substantial change in traffic patterns/conditions since the last study. Cvc 40802 spells it out precisely.

Thanks you so much zeljo.

Zeljo/Other Experts,
I needed your help/suggestions urgently as I have to make a decision before my deadline for court apperance on Mar 27th. I received the letter in response to my Informal discovery request. Attached are the images for the response letter, engineering survey they sent me and the LIDAR certificate

https://ibb.co/HGF6Htx
https://ibb.co/F5H720h
https://ibb.co/9ZQDCxR

I have the following questions.

1) No notes were written but a body camera was used. It says that the body camera video has been provided to the court. Does this affect the case in any way? How do I get the video?
2) They sent me an engineering survey from the city but it is incorrect. It shows 3 intersections for Mission Blvd and they are of the Mission Blvd which is on the other side of the Freeway on which I received the citation. The Mission Blvd. on the side of the freeway where I received the citation falls under CalTrans and not the city. Could this be pointed out in TBD?
3) A LIDAR certification has been provided so was LIDAR used for measuring the speed?
4) Also zeljo mentioned in point 1) about the road conditions and speed. The traffic was light as no one was close to me on the road and it was a 2 lane road. It had rained overnight but was not raining when I received the citation. The road were slightly wet but not slippery. The officer on the citation had provided different information as Weather- Rain, Road Conditions - Wet and Traffic - Medium. Does that affect in any way on proving that my speed was safe?
5) Is an invalid engineering survey (basis for a speed trap law) enough to beat the ticket or do I also have to prove that the speed was safe based on the weather/condition/traffic?
6) Given the above and the response of the Informal Discovery request letters attached above, is it worth filing a TBD?

Thanks.

This confirms the officer used LIDAR, so speed trap defense applies. It alone is sufficient to beat this ticket. You may wish to amend point #2 in my previous post to something like "There is no valid traffic and engineering study conducted in the last 10 years justifying the posted speed limit on a stretch of highway including the intersection of Mission Blvd and Cadencia St, where the alleged violation happened." ... "Therefore, as the citing officer used LIDAR to determine the speed of my vehicle, the incident constituted a speed trap as per CVC 40802..."

You can, however, keep the point #1 as well, but correct weather as "cloudy" and surface as "mostly dry". Add visibility: good. Keep traffic as light. If the officer claims otherwise, in declaration or in person, the judge will take his word for it. However, it is still good to have your side of the story, including your clear and unequivocal statement that the speed was safe for conditions, in case he does not submit a declaration. You should, though, make the speed trap point first, as it is now the stronger one. I.e., switch the order of points #1 and #2 from my previous post.

TBD still makes sense. Since the officer apparently made no notes, I think there's a good chance he won't even submit his declaration, or show up for the trial.

I don't see how body camera video would be relevant. Did he say something to you that might have been captured by the mike that could boost your case? Such as traffic/weather conditions, or your speed being less that 65 (that is on the ticket)?