Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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Unfetteredmight
I doubt that I can successfully characterize it that way. He potentially has copies of the same evidence I have and they will show that he took my tools afterwards.
I'm not sure how the wages which rightfully belonged to me that he refused to pay, ergo my property that he stole, has no bearing on this. Are you saying that the totality of the circumstances will have no bearing on the case?
Don't take my reply the wrong way, I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's just that reality warping seems like a bad way to dole out justice and if that's how things play out in our justice system, that's very disconcerting.
I totally agree that this should have went to a civil court. That's why I think he chose this route, because he knew he would not prevail in that venue.
I do appreciate all of your help.
I disagree with bud. I would be totally honest. You caused some damage that you were willing to fix. Instead, he replaced the door costing thousands of dollars and deducted it from your pay. You disagreed with him and kept some of his tools, he kept some of your tools as well.
With any luck the judge will realize that the whole thing is a civil matter and will dismiss it as such.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
Being charged with theft has absolutely nothing to do with damage to a door or any wage dispute. The charge is theft. A judge is not interested in intrinsic facts that lead up to the crime.
Nothing I suggested is dishonest. It is only facts.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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Unfetteredmight
Well that's where the IRS reclassification would come in. I wasn't paid per job, I was paid a wage per hour. There was no written contract.
. The irs classification won’t do you any good with this. It isn’t an overnight matter.
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The money that I'm referring to wasn't even from the job that the paint got rubbed off the door, those hours worked were on a different job.[
so you had a contractual dispute and you essentially stole his tools to use as a bargaining chip.
Dont ever do that again.
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Going by the information on the affidavit, I doubt the police officer or prosecutor even knows about him keeping my wages. I haven't been given the opportunity to tell them yet. It literally says nothing other than I quit and took tools.
it may make no difference. Regardless of anything else, retaining his tools without his permission is theft. There is an arguable point in what you did but there is no guarantee a prosecutor will see it that way.
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I should also note that I have evidence to back up everything I'm stating through emails and texts.
one thing about emails; it’s difficult to prove the person you sent them to received them or read them. If he hasn’t recieved the emails your defense is dead in the water.
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I'm not sure how the wages which rightfully belonged to me that he refused to pay, ergo my property that he stole, has no bearing on this. Are you saying that the totality of the circumstances will have no bearing on the case?
if that is a crime then every person that doesn’t pay a debt is a criminal for the same reason. The money part is a simple contractual issue. He did not steal your money. He has failed to pay per your contract demands. A huge difference
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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jk
if that is a crime then every person that doesn’t pay a debt is a criminal for the same reason. The money part is a simple contractual issue. He did not steal your money. He has failed to pay per your contract demands. A huge difference
Interesting that is your position when the state feels differently.
514.060 Theft of services.
(1) A person is guilty of theft of services when:
(a) The person intentionally obtains services by deception or threat or by false
token or other means to avoid payment for the services which he knows are
available only for compensation;
(4) Theft of services is a Class A misdemeanor unless the value of the service is:
(a) Five hundred dollars ($500) or more but less than ten thousand dollars
($10,000), in which case it is a Class D felony;
If he had told me that he was going to back charge me and I agreed to it and later changed my mind, that's a contractual dispute. But when he allowed me to work for 2 weeks, knowing that he wasn't going to pay me, that is a crime. A crime of identical monetary thresholds with the same level of criminality as mine.
Will that absolve me in court? Maybe not. But he and I can go down the same road.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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Unfetteredmight
Interesting that is your position when the state feels differently.
514.060 Theft of services.
(1) A person is guilty of theft of services when:
(a) The person intentionally obtains services by deception or threat or by false
token or other means to avoid payment for the services which he knows are
available only for compensation;
(4) Theft of services is a Class A misdemeanor unless the value of the service is:
(a) Five hundred dollars ($500) or more but less than ten thousand dollars
($10,000), in which case it is a Class D felony;
If he had told me that he was going to back charge me and I agreed to it and later changed my mind, that's a contractual dispute. But when he allowed me to work for 2 weeks, knowing that he wasn't going to pay me, that is a crime. A crime of identical monetary thresholds with the same level of criminality as mine.
Will that absolve me in court? Maybe not. But he and I can go down the same road.
Of course you’re arguing he had no intention of paying you. His argument is he has paid you but withheld what you owed to him. That is nowhere close to what the statute requires for theft of services. Your spin that you had to agree is incorrect. In fact, he may even have a legal right to offset the debt you owed him for what he owed you.
Anyway, it isn’t going to be prosecuted.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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jk
Of course you’re arguing he had no intention of paying you. His argument is he has paid you but withheld what you owed to him. That is nowhere close to what the statute requires for theft of services. Your spin that you had to agree is incorrect. In fact, he may even have a legal right to offset the debt you owed him for what he owed you.
Anyway, it isn’t going to be prosecuted.
What spin? Are you suggesting he didn't deceive me?
Suppose the electric company has a piece of equipment that becomes faulty and it over-voltages my home and destroys valuable electronic equipment. Even though I have a claim against the electric company, I don't get to decide to deduct it from my electric bills until I'm paid in full.
Electric Company = Me
Damaged Equipment = Damaged Door
Provided Service = Provided Service
Can't deduct from bill = Can deduct from bill
Do you see the flaw in your argument? Are you suggesting I don't have equal protection under the law?
He should have paid me for my services, submitted a bill for damages and if there was a dispute we could have taken it to arbitration or a judge and the judge could have decided what was right. He may very well have a legal right to offset, but there is also something call the Economic Loss Doctrine in as the customer was only entitled to compensation for the loss of value of the door. Which for a paint rub? That's not a lot, certainly not the entire replacement value.
You don't know the devastation he wrought on my family because he wanted to give the customer a blank check with my name on it.
I had spoken to one attorney who didn't think I could afford his services, but who was kind enough to point out the aforementioned KRS and told me to go press charges. Though I had already came across it in my research and thought the same thing, having the confirmation from an elderly experienced attorney was nice. He also stated that this should be a case even a lesser attorney would be able to beat.
However I think I will call him back and ask exactly what his fee would be. I know I can pull off a couple continuances, which should give me enough time to come up with his fee...hopefully.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
I’m not sure how he decieved you. You worked. You earned money. He claims you owed him money so he retained the money you earned to offset what (he claims) you owed him. Nothing deceptive about that.
No I don’t see a flaw in my logic. In fact he may have had a legal right to deduct your debt to him from the money he owed to you. I don’t have all the info to make that call but it could be a very real possibility.
If he withheld more than you belived he had a right to, you could sue him
none if that rises to the level of a criminal act of theft of services.
Theft of services is causing a person to perform said services with no intent, at the onset of the request of the services, to pay them. He did pay you. It’s just that he withheld the pay as an offset or your debt to him.
To your example with the power company;
you could surely attempt to withhold payment as an offset. It wouldn’t make it theft of services. The big difference is the power company can simply turn off your power if you don’t pay the bill. That makes the example not anywhere comparable
It isn’t your choice to press charges. You can report what you believe to be a crime. The prosecutor will decide whether he believes it is a crime and whether to press charges or not. If you really believe it is a crime why haven’t you already reported it?
And yes, once all of the information is out there I can see the charges against you being dropped. I hope they are since it doesn’t appear it actually was your intent to deprive the guy of his property.
Have you reported the fact he has effectively stolen your tools? Knowing the guy is holding your tools could make this disappear quite quickly.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
Let me try this a different way.
1) I worked for 2 weeks expecting a paycheck, with absolutely no knowledge I was not going to be paid. I expected my services to be "for profit"
2) He didn't tell me that he was replacing the door until the same day he told me he wasn't paying me, I quit immediately.
3) He didn't tell me because he knew if he told me I was not going to get paid, I would have stopped working for him immediately and pursed gainful employment.
4) He used deceit to gain compensation for his loss, because it was easier than being honest and having to take me to court.
5) Regardless of whether he was entitled to compensation or not, he still used deceit to gain that compensation.
6) The element of deceit exists by basic definition, he doesn't eliminate that fact because he thought I owed him. He knew I didn't know his intentions.
deceit - the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
No I have not reported the fact that he took my tools, though I do have an email from him stating that he did. I have not reported the theft of tools or services yet because I wanted to leave the proper strategy up to the attorney. I've successfully battled in court on my own over less important matters (traffic), but this is serious, I don't want to screw it up.
I hope you're right jk. My intention never was to deprive him of his tools, just to get the compensation that I needed to care for my family and seek gainful employment elsewhere. In fact I didn't want his tools so much that I haven't even used any of them, they're still boxed up collecting dust.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
Sorry but that is still not theft of services. He did “pay” you. It’s just that is was applied to a debt he claimed you owed him.
Now, if he didn’t deduct the earned pay from the debt owed, then you can argue he didn’t pay you.
Using your argument every week when there are deductions from my paycheck the employer is guilty of theft of services. It isn’t and that’s because although I didn’t get the money in my hand it was applied to various claims against my pay.
Re: Charged with Felony for Theft when They Stole from Me First
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jk
Sorry but that is still not theft of services. He did “pay” you. It’s just that is was applied to a debt he claimed you owed him.
Now, if he didn’t deduct the earned pay from the debt owed, then you can argue he didn’t pay you.
Using your argument every week when there are deductions from my paycheck the employer is guilty of theft of services. It isn’t and that’s because although I didn’t get the money in my hand it was applied to various claims against my pay.
You're a W2, I'm a 1099. If I were a W2 I could have just contacted the labor board and he would have absolutely no claim to damages unless it could be proven that I did them intentionally.
Completely different set of rules.