-
Maximizing Gain
Quote:
Quoting
Mark47n
The most irritating fee I've been charged, recently, was paying my attorney to discuss a billing issue. This was a bit beyond the pale.
Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...
Quote:
Quoting
Messenger82
Thanks for the advice everyone!
Since the post our insurance company has opened and denied the claim (they are very efficient). They said the initial damage would have been less than the $1000 deductible (like $5 less) and they won't cover the subsequent damage because we did not "secure the house properly against further damage". Apparently we should have rented a bucket truck and fixed the line ourselves.
How much in damages are we talking about? I am only asking because this sounds like a complex issue and if the monetary damage is high enough you may be better off hiring an attorney to help sort it out and maximize your gain. Just a thought.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...
As soon as I saw your response I knew it was all about what I said. As usual you aren't reading carefully, so I'll take this slowly:
Your antipathy towards contractors and the trades is tedious. We do not pull any more "shenanigans" than anyone else. The men and women that perform skilled labor are hard working and just as honest and scrupulous as the next person. Take that as you will.
You example contains a number of fallacious assumptions. The largest of which is that doctors and nurses that staff an ER are there on a 24/7schedule whereas service providers, in this case electricians, operate within a typical 0700-1700 m-f and no holidays schedule. Requesting service outside of those typical hours will often have premium charges attached to them. Going back to the ER, you pay additional fees for availing yourself to ER services as well.
Your last statement is pure poppycock! Of course I'll answer my phone and I'll be happy to provide my service at the stated emergency rate. If they don't want it they are welcome to decline and find someone else. Your unwillingness to grasp that concept says more about you than my laying out terms up front does about me.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...
How much in damages are we talking about? I am only asking because this sounds like a complex issue and if the monetary damage is high enough you may be better off hiring an attorney to help sort it out and maximize your gain. Just a thought.
Maximize his gain? Sorry dude but there is no gain to be had. He is due his damages, provable damages.
As to the crap about electricians overcharging;
ya, what mark47 said.
Im curious; when was the last time your doctor came to your house to treat you at 10pm? When is the last time your accountant showed up at your house at 10pm, and of course only charged regular hourly rate?
im betting the answer would be never. Think about that while rereading your glowing praise of professionals compared to electricians.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
jk
Maximize his gain? Sorry dude but there is no gain to be had. He is due his damages, provable damages.
Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
As to the crap about electricians overcharging;
Im curious; when was the last time your doctor came to your house to treat you at 10pm? When is the last time your accountant showed up at your house at 10pm, and of course only charged regular hourly rate?
im betting the answer would be never. Think about that while rereading your glowing praise of professionals compared to electricians.
When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.
No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?
Quote:
Quoting
Mark47n
You example contains a number of fallacious assumptions. The largest of which is that doctors and nurses that staff an ER are there on a 24/7schedule whereas service providers, in this case electricians, operate within a typical 0700-1700 m-f and no holidays schedule. Requesting service outside of those typical hours will often have premium charges attached to them. Going back to the ER, you pay additional fees for availing yourself to ER services as well.
The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.
And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
Quote:
Quoting
Mark47n
Your last statement is pure poppycock! Of course I'll answer my phone and I'll be happy to provide my service at the stated emergency rate. If they don't want it they are welcome to decline and find someone else. Your unwillingness to grasp that concept says more about you than my laying out terms up front does about me.
No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.
When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.
No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?
The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.
And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
who said anything about copays?
i asked a simple question and you want to frustrate the conversation by bringing up superfluous issues.
Did you realize that while you said an electrician was gouging a customer for charging a premium rate, you seemed to be quite comfortable with a doctor charging 2X-3x his normal rate to make a house call. Quite hypocritical.
And again; gain is different than being compensated for losses/damages.
Speaking of doctors that are contracted coming in at odd hours for their “normal rate” is different than a doctor not on a contract coming in at odd hours.
And again you are trying to compare an entity that holds themselves out as offering 24 hour/ day services (the hospital) with an electrician that has somewhat regular business hours.
Btw: the last time I needed emergency services the doctor who ended up doing the operation to fix a broken bone did not come in early. He took the phone call, reviewed the x Ray (it can be sent via the Internet) and said: give pain relief meds and i’ll be in at 8:00 am to do the surgery. This was at about 1:00 am.
So no, doctors don’t always show up. There is no need to usually as the Er doctors, you know, the docs hired to work the night shift, triage and stabilize those patients that can wait for daytime specialists. Specialists are called in for services in the middle of the night a lot less than you think they are.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.
When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.
No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?
The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.
And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
The reason you don't like what contractors charge is because YOU have to actually pay them, unlike a doctor when you whip out your (near free, employer provided) medical ATM card.
Try paying your doctor or ER cash next time and see how you like their rates.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
jk
Did you realize that while you said an electrician was gouging a customer for charging a premium rate, you seemed to be quite comfortable with a doctor charging 2X-3x his normal rate to make a house call. Quite hypocritical.
I am not. My whole point was if a professional did the same thing there would be all sorts of noise made. I even pointed out in a round about way that when doctors do it society calls it "concierge medicine" not medical care. I.e. we as a society do not tolerate this from professionals however it is considered okay when tradesman do it.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
Speaking of doctors that are contracted coming in at odd hours for their “normal rate” is different than a doctor not on a contract coming in at odd hours.
Again most doctors are not contracted to come in. Even for the ones that are and are compensated differently you as the customer do NOT pay for the difference. I have no problem if an electrician company wants to compensate their employees differently for different types of call as long as the customer pays the same price.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
And again you are trying to compare an entity that holds themselves out as offering 24 hour/ day services (the hospital) with an electrician that has somewhat regular business hours.
No I am holding electricians comparable to individual doctors. The hospital may be open 24 hours a day. Doctors are human and need somewhat regular hours.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
Btw: the last time I needed emergency services the doctor who ended up doing the operation to fix a broken bone did not come in early. He took the phone call, reviewed the x Ray (it can be sent via the Internet) and said: give pain relief meds and i’ll be in at 8:00 am to do the surgery. This was at about 1:00 am.
Then by definition you did NOT need emergency services. You visited an Emergency room and got immediate care from te ER doctor but the rest of it (i.e. the definitive treatment) was not an emergency.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
So no, doctors don’t always show up. There is no need to usually as the Er doctors, you know, the docs hired to work the night shift, triage and stabilize those patients that can wait for daytime specialists. Specialists are called in for services in the middle of the night a lot less than you think they are.
Trust me they are called in way more then you think. And it is not just being called in - the fact that someone called them, woke the up in the middle of the night, they reviewed the studies, and made a plan still constitutes them taking care of you (usually uncompensated until they see you in the morning and do a proper work up). And again addressing your jab on the ER doctor he is not charging you, the patient, more because you showed up in the middle of the night. The bill would have been the same if you showed up the next morning at 8 am.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
The reason you don't like what contractors charge is because YOU have to actually pay them, unlike a doctor when you whip out your (near free, employer provided) medical ATM card.
Try paying your doctor or ER cash next time and see how you like their rates.
I agree with the first part of your statement. Most people have no clue how little they pay for doctors or how entitled they act (the patients).
However, if the doctors charged you like your electrician does imagine the outrage, as you have clearly demonstrated. I am not sure why people find it ok and normal to pay their electrician 3x normal rates for after hour work but paying their doctor is wrong and health care should be a "right".
As for the second part well at least its the same rate on Friday night before a holiday weekend as 9 am on Wed unlike the electrician ;).
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
I agree with the first part of your statement. Most people have no clue how little they pay for doctors or how entitled they act (the patients).
However, if the doctors charged you like your electrician does imagine the outrage, as you have clearly demonstrated. I am not sure why people find it ok and normal to pay their electrician 3x normal rates for after hour work but paying their doctor is wrong and health care should be a "right".
As for the second part well at least its the same rate on Friday night before a holiday weekend as 9 am on Wed unlike the electrician ;).
I just had hand surgery and observed the rate between the surgical center and my doctor being $5,000/hr which I paid cash for because my surgeon did not accept my insurance. Those are rates that not even the best lawyer in the country would charge. Oh, and my surgeon does about 5-8 of those surgeries per day twice a week.
What did you ask the electrician to do at 10:00pm, and, how did you estimate that he was charging three times his rate?
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I just had hand surgery and observed the rate between the surgical center and my doctor being $5,000/hr which I paid cash for because my surgeon did not accept my insurance. Those are rates that not even the best lawyer in the country would charge. Oh, and my surgeon does about 5-8 of those surgeries per day twice a week.
Please don't try ridiculous number games. What did your surgeon charge you? Or your anesthesiologist? Those are the doctor's rates. Most of the $5000/hr (which seems real high specially for a cash patient) went to the surgery center (i.e. facilities, equipment, drugs, x-ray, labs, etc.).
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
Please don't try ridiculous number games. What did your surgeon charge you? Or your anesthesiologist? Those are the doctor's rates. Most of the $5000/hr (which seems real high specially for a cash patient) went to the surgery center (i.e. facilities, equipment, drugs, x-ray, labs, etc.).
I'd be happy to tell you. The surgeon, who is at the top of his game as hand surgeons in the area, charged me $2,250 with a local or an additional $625 for a general. The surgical center charged $2,350. The surgery took about 50 minutes. I am certain a high paying platinum plan would be 'contracted' to pay nearly double that. He did at least 5 surgeries before mine and was out the door at 1:00pm. All surgeries paying more than my cash job.
No x-rays, no labs, no splint. Just numbing agent, knife, scissors, thread, needle, facility and nurses. Actually, I had no problem with the price, but I do with the entire healthcare system. Being gouged every month for insurance and then not being able to use it in a time of need after being butchered by an in-network doctor.
So, what did the electrician do and what did he charge? I am familiar with scopes of work and pricing.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
I am not. My whole point was if a professional did the same thing there would be all sorts of noise made. I even pointed out in a round about way that when doctors do it society calls it "concierge medicine" not medical care. I.e. we as a society do not tolerate this from professionals however it is considered okay when tradesman do it.
Again most doctors are not contracted to come in. Even for the ones that are and are compensated differently you as the customer do NOT pay for the difference. I have no problem if an electrician company wants to compensate their employees differently for different types of call as long as the customer pays the same price.
No I am holding electricians comparable to individual doctors. The hospital may be open 24 hours a day. Doctors are human and need somewhat regular hours.
Then by definition you did NOT need emergency services. You visited an Emergency room and got immediate care from te ER doctor but the rest of it (i.e. the definitive treatment) was not an emergency.
Trust me they are called in way more then you think. And it is not just being called in - the fact that someone called them, woke the up in the middle of the night, they reviewed the studies, and made a plan still constitutes them taking care of you (usually uncompensated until they see you in the morning and do a proper work up). And again addressing your jab on the ER doctor he is not charging you, the patient, more because you showed up in the middle of the night. The bill would have been the same if you showed up the next morning at 8 am.
I agree with the first part of your statement. Most people have no clue how little they pay for doctors or how entitled they act (the patients).
However, if the doctors charged you like your electrician does imagine the outrage, as you have clearly demonstrated. I am not sure why people find it ok and normal to pay their electrician 3x normal rates for after hour work but paying their doctor is wrong and health care should be a "right".
As for the second part well at least its the same rate on Friday night before a holiday weekend as 9 am on Wed unlike the electrician ;).
You missed the point and all you are attempting to do is to expand the conversation so you can hear yourself talk.
The floor’s all yours. You go on and ramble your incorrect and meaningless crap
btw; yes, the broken ankle did require emergency treatment. Failure to address the break could have resulted in the loss of the foot.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I just had hand surgery and observed the rate between the surgical center and my doctor being $5,000/hr which I paid cash for because my surgeon did not accept my insurance. Those are rates that not even the best lawyer in the country would charge. Oh, and my surgeon does about 5-8 of those surgeries per day twice a week.
What did you ask the electrician to do at 10:00pm, and, how did you estimate that he was charging three times his rate?
I saw the bill for my hand surgeon when he performed surgery to repair carpal tunnel syndrome. He billed my insurance $28,000, the insurance company paid him $9,000 because he was in my network... Not a bad payday if you ask me...
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Who'sThatGuy
I saw the bill for my hand surgeon when he performed surgery to repair carpal tunnel syndrome. He billed my insurance $28,000, the insurance company paid him $9,000 because he was in my network... Not a bad payday if you ask me...
My physical therapist just told me yesterday that carpal tunnel is an easy surgery that often only takes 10 minutes.
Did you know that the difference between the $28K and $9K is written off as a loss. It is a way the non-profit hospitals use to hide profit. It is also used to mislead the policyholder to think that $28K is the going rate...when it is a total fabrication.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
My physical therapist just told me yesterday that carpal tunnel is an easy surgery that often only takes 10 minutes.
Did you know that the difference between the $28K and $9K is written off as a loss. It is a way the non-profit hospitals use to hide profit. It is also used to mislead the policyholder to think that $28K is the going rate...when it is a total fabrication.
That's just sick if you ask me.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Who'sThatGuy
I saw the bill for my hand surgeon when he performed surgery to repair carpal tunnel syndrome. He billed my insurance $28,000, the insurance company paid him $9,000 because he was in my network... Not a bad payday if you ask me...
I don't work with too many hand surgeons but of the one's I have worked with NONE have ever billed $28K for carpal tunnel and certainly never been paid $9K just for the surgeons fee. I will post back after checking.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
My physical therapist just told me yesterday that carpal tunnel is an easy surgery that often only takes 10 minutes.
The surgical portion usually does take 15-20 minutes. 10 is the upper limit of fast.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
Did you know that the difference between the $28K and $9K is written off as a loss. It is a way the non-profit hospitals use to hide profit. It is also used to mislead the policyholder to think that $28K is the going rate...when it is a total fabrication.
That is pure BS. The difference can not be written off as a loss. Check the tax code. Furthermore, even actual losses can not be written off. I.E. You go to the doctor, he does surgery and you never pay. He can NOT write off that debt as a loss. If that was true no doctor would show income. Ever. Hospitals are a different matter. I am not sure what they can write off but they are not pertinent to the discussion of professionals charging more because it is a weekend/holiday like the tradesman do.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
yes, the broken ankle did require emergency treatment. Failure to address the break could have resulted in the loss of the foot.
It required treatment which can be delivered the next day w/o causing injury. Hence it is NOT an emergency. An emergency, in the medical field, is something that can cause an immediate risk to life or limb - i.e. you cut through your hand with a saw and are bleeding like stink that is an emergency. You broke the bone in your arm, it is not sticking out of the skin, it can be set by the ER and you can have definitive tx in a few days.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I'd be happy to tell you. The surgeon, who is at the top of his game as hand surgeons in the area, charged me $2,250 with a local or an additional $625 for a general. The surgical center charged $2,350. The surgery took about 50 minutes. I am certain a high paying platinum plan would be 'contracted' to pay nearly double that. He did at least 5 surgeries before mine and was out the door at 1:00pm. All surgeries paying more than my cash job.
The $625 sounds right for cash pay depending on the length of the case. However, if it was only one hour that would be a bit excessive for anesthesia. The usual fee (at least in so cal) for one hour surgery is $400 - $500. That is what the anesthesiologist takes. Facility fees (the drugs, anesthesia machine, OR time) would be extra.
Again, I don't deal with many hand surgeons but that seems very excessive unless it was a very complex procedure (e.g. he had to pull the nerve out of scar tissue). To give you an idea a blueshield PPO (80/20) plan pays about $400 for an Appendectomy to the surgeon (so $320 from insurance and $80 from patient). That fee BTW includes follow up visits for four weeks.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
That is pure BS. The difference can not be written off as a loss. Check the tax code. Furthermore, even actual losses can not be written off. I.E. You go to the doctor, he does surgery and you never pay. He can NOT write off that debt as a loss. If that was true no doctor would show income. Ever. Hospitals are a different matter. I am not sure what they can write off but they are not pertinent to the discussion of professionals charging more because it is a weekend/holiday like the tradesman do.
I did not say private practice doctors can write off the difference, I said hospitals can. If you want to learn more about it, pull up Dr Keith Smith who founded and runs the 32Ksqft Surgical Center of Oklahoma. He goes into depth about our corrupt medical industry, speaking for hours on it. It is disgusting.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
An Anesthesiologist with a different business model for surgical practice who obviously has every motivation to talk bad about other business models.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I did not say private practice doctors can write off the difference, I said hospitals can. If you want to learn more about it, pull up Dr Keith Smith who founded and runs the 32Ksqft Surgical Center of Oklahoma. He goes into depth about our corrupt medical industry, speaking for hours on it. It is disgusting.
Right and as I said totally non-pertinent info to the discussion of tradesman charging more just because it is after hours.
I also checked with a couple (yes as in two so no not a scientifically accurate sample) of hand surgeons. Neither has ever tried charging 28K for a carpal tunnel. They will push it and charge 7-9x medicare rates but of course they never get paid that. The usual ALLOWABLE re-imbursement from a PPO for carpal tunnel according to them is $600-$700. This includes the follow ups. Of that you have to spend even more time and money to try and collect the patients 20%.
One did recall some guy who was charging crazy cash amounts and running a scam. However, he is currently in jail where he belongs. So if your insurance paid out 9K just to the surgeon for a simple carpal tunnel you really need to talk to your insurance company.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
My physical therapist just told me yesterday that carpal tunnel is an easy surgery that often only takes 10 minutes.
Did you know that the difference between the $28K and $9K is written off as a loss. It is a way the non-profit hospitals use to hide profit. It is also used to mislead the policyholder to think that $28K is the going rate...when it is a total fabrication.
I'm not sure I want to assist in dragging this discussion further off the rails but...
Uh, no. Hospitals and providers have contracted rates with insurers. This varies by contract and by insurer. (My personal carrier does have an online estimating tool, based on the area contracted rates.) The "losses" you speak of are typically booked as contracted adjustments, and are a normal part of the healthcare business. Revenue can be booked in a few different ways, but one of the more common ways is to book by contracted rate, not full rate. The full rate/contracted rate is not a way of "hiding profit." (And honestly, if you're stating that the hospital faces an $19K loss on a $28K surgery, where on earth is their profit?)
There's a lot wrong with the healthcare industry, don't get me wrong, but as far as I know, non-profits don't use the difference between full rates and contracted rates to hide profit.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
Right and as I said totally non-pertinent info to the discussion of tradesman charging more just because it is after hours.
Who knows if he charged 3x more? He never gave the scope of work or the amount he paid. Only that it was done at 10:00pm and he felt screwed.
Quote:
I also checked with a couple (yes as in two so no not a scientifically accurate sample) of hand surgeons. Neither has ever tried charging 28K for a carpal tunnel. They will push it and charge 7-9x medicare rates but of course they never get paid that. The usual ALLOWABLE re-imbursement from a PPO for carpal tunnel according to them is $600-$700. This includes the follow ups. Of that you have to spend even more time and money to try and collect the patients 20%.
One did recall some guy who was charging crazy cash amounts and running a scam. However, he is currently in jail where he belongs. So if your insurance paid out 9K just to the surgeon for a simple carpal tunnel you really need to talk to your insurance company.
Then where does that fake number come from? It is listed for deceptive reasons. But Dr Keith Smith will tell you why it is on a bill. There are more reasons than I stated.
Quote:
Quoting
PayrolGuy
An Anesthesiologist with a different business model for surgical practice who obviously has every motivation to talk bad about other business models.
I don't care what Dr Keith Smith is. All that matters is if what he's saying is true.
Listen to him, learn something, and report back. Is he FOS? If you say "yes," he has listed his credentials... then you must list yours. :)
Quote:
Quoting
Lexi44
I'm not sure I want to assist in dragging this discussion further off the rails but...
Uh, no. Hospitals and providers have contracted rates with insurers. This varies by contract and by insurer. (My personal carrier does have an online estimating tool, based on the area contracted rates.) The "losses" you speak of are typically booked as contracted adjustments, and are a normal part of the healthcare business. Revenue can be booked in a few different ways, but one of the more common ways is to book by contracted rate, not full rate. The full rate/contracted rate is not a way of "hiding profit." (And honestly, if you're stating that the hospital faces an $19K loss on a $28K surgery, where on earth is their profit?)
There's a lot wrong with the healthcare industry, don't get me wrong, but as far as I know, non-profits don't use the difference between full rates and contracted rates to hide profit.
Did you know that well over half of our hospitals are non-profit and must show no profit. Well, how is that done when they do a $30K surgery and only have $5K-$10K of costs? When they charge $10K per bed per day?
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
Did you know that well over half of our hospital are non-profit and must show now profit. Well, how is that done when they do a $30K surgery and only have $5K-$10K of costs? When they charge $10K per bed per day?
You really don't understand how non-profit works, do you?
Even going by your views it is very easy: Hospitals have lots of real losses. Every time a homeless patient walks into the ER and needs surgery that's real loss. Not because of the difference in billed and contracted rates but because the hospital spends real money (i.e. pays wages, electrical bills, OR equipment, medications, etc.) so their loss goes up but income does not (no re-imbursement from the homeless patient for even a dollar). This offsets the income from a paying patient on their balance sheets.
Again, I ask how does any of these arguments justify paying more for a tradesman just because it is after hours? Which is what I took issue with originally and set you off.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
You really don't understand how non-profit works, do you?
Even going by your views it is very easy: Hospitals have lots of real losses. Every time a homeless patient walks into the ER and needs surgery that's real loss. Not because of the difference in billed and contracted rates but because the hospital spends real money (i.e. pays wages, electrical bills, OR equipment, medications, etc.) so their loss goes up but income does not (no re-imbursement from the homeless patient for even a dollar). This offsets the income from a paying patient on their balance sheets.
Again, I ask how does any of these arguments justify paying more for a tradesman just because it is after hours? Which is what I took issue with originally and set you off.
Hospitals are rarely stiffed 100%. They are compensated by the State and Fed for bums and illegals.
As for the OP, he disappeared or refuses to respond. I asked what was the scope of work and what did he pay. I will make my own professional assessment whether he got charged 3x. Also, it was the OP that brought up the medical industry, not me.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
ebayuser
I don't work with too many hand surgeons but of the one's I have worked with NONE have ever billed $28K for carpal tunnel and certainly never been paid $9K just for the surgeons fee. I will post back after checking.
I can only tell you what I have seen on my paperwork. Doctor billed $28,000 and was paid $9,000. Maybe my situation was more complicated as I was attacked buy a dog that grabbed my wrist?
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Who'sThatGuy
I can only tell you what I have seen on my paperwork. Doctor billed $28,000 and was paid $9,000. Maybe my situation was more complicated as I was attacked buy a dog that grabbed my wrist?
The $28K is a fake number that is on all EOB's. Your doctor may have been paid $9K but wasn't a formal surgical center involved..with nurses, staff and supplies?
BTW - This thread should have been named 'minimizing gain.' :)
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I did not say private practice doctors can write off the difference, I said hospitals can.
They cannot deduct unearned income as an expense on their federal income tax returns. Unearned income is simply income that is not included for tax in the first place. You may have either misunderstood what the author said, paraphrased it incorrectly, or the author himself got it wrong. The only time it is deducted is when the income had already been included earlier, as occurs with accrual accounting when income may be recognized prior to actually getting the payment, unlike cash basis taxpayers (like the vast majority of individuals) who do not recognize income until they actually get paid. But make no mistake, there is no extraordinary tax benefit that hospitals are getting out it.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Taxing Matters
They cannot deduct unearned income as an expense on their federal income tax returns. Unearned income is simply income that is not included for tax in the first place. You may have either misunderstood what the author said, paraphrased it incorrectly, or the author himself got it wrong. The only time it is deducted is when the income had already been included earlier, as occurs with accrual accounting when income may be recognized prior to actually getting the payment, unlike cash basis taxpayers (like the vast majority of individuals) who do not recognize income until they actually get paid. But make no mistake, there is no extraordinary tax benefit that hospitals are getting out it.
I would like to see you debate your ideal tax law against Dr Keith Smith's actual experience in his industry and running his facility. Know that he hires doctors that work for the non-profit hospitals across town.
I highly doubt you understand the allowances one of the biggest Lobby's has paved for one of the most corrupt and lucrative industries. Listen to him and tell me he's wrong.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Brian, you don't get to show a loss for taxes just because you made up an inflated price and then accepted a lower price. If that were the case every piece of bubblegum would cost $1,000,000 but they would be willing to actually sell it for $0.05 and take the $$999,999.95 loss for taxes.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
PayrolGuy
Brian, you don't get to show a loss for taxes just because you made up an inflated price and then accepted a lower price. If that were the case every piece of bubblegum would cost $1,000,000 but they would be willing to actually sell it for $0.05 and take the $$999,999.95 loss for taxes.
Then maybe you can explain how the Fed and State can require that a privately owned business gives free services? What book does that come from?
My point is that the most corrupt systems (healthcare) makes their own laws.
BTW - I realize that we cannot do that.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
Then maybe you can explain how the Fed and State can require that a privately owned business gives free services? What book does that come from?
My point is that the most corrupt systems (healthcare) makes their own laws.
BTW - I realize that we cannot do that.
The requirement to provide free services is relatively new, like in its part of Obamacare. Prior to that time a hospital, for profit or non profit, was not required to provide free services. There are government hospitals (commonly called county hospitals) that do have to provide service to the indigent and always have.
You also dont undestsnd the requirements under EMTALA which limits the amount of treatment a hospital must provide that indigent person walking in needing surgery. Hospitals are not required to Provide more than adequate services necessary to stabilize a patient to the point s/he can be transported.
Now heres something else you apparently don’t know;
Non profit hospitals (I don’t know if it applies to for profit hospitals) cannot charge a patient without insurance more than a patient that has insurance. (Yes, an Obamacare requirement)
Of course managed health care providers (such as PPO insurance providers or HMO’s) who have contracts with medical providers do receive discounts under such a contract but that is not the same thing as charging la different price. It is a negotiated discount based on the contractual relationship and is applied to the same price everybody else is charged.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I would like to see you debate your ideal tax law against Dr Keith Smith's actual experience in his industry and running his facility. Know that he hires doctors that work for the non-profit hospitals across town.
I highly doubt you understand the allowances one of the biggest Lobby's has paved for one of the most corrupt and lucrative industries. Listen to him and tell me he's wrong.
I'd have to first see what he says to debate it. I'm simply taking issue with your characterization of it. Your characterization may misstate what he's said for all I know. But as I have over 30 years of experience in tax law, I submit I know it far, far better than you do. That is not a slam against you. As I understand it, you are a contractor and thus would know far more about the details of type of construction contracting than I do. So you might consider that I may know more about tax law than you do.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
Then maybe you can explain how the Fed and State can require that a privately owned business gives free services? What book does that come from?
Exactly what “free services” are you arguing that the government is requiring hospitals to provide, and are you talking about all hospitals or just those that are tax exempt under IRC § 501(c)(3)?
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Taxing Matters
I'd have to first see what he says to debate it. I'm simply taking issue with your characterization of it. Your characterization may misstate what he's said for all I know. But as I have over 30 years of experience in tax law, I submit I know it far, far better than you do. That is not a slam against you. As I understand it, you are a contractor and thus would know far more about the details of type of construction contracting than I do. So you might consider that I may know more about tax law than you do.
I am not making this claim, Dr Keith Smith is. He founded and runs his 32Ksqft facility. He posts his prices online for 120 common surgical procedures. He goes into detail about the cozy relationship between insurance companies and hospitals. So I tend to believe him until I see someone debate him and prove him wrong. Give him the time, it will be worth it.
BTW - Are you privy to the taxes of a non-profit hospital? If so, you might need a barf bag.
Quote:
Quoting
jk
The requirement to provide free services is relatively new, like in its part of Obamacare. Prior to that time a hospital, for profit or non profit, was not required to provide free services. There are government hospitals (commonly called county hospitals) that do have to provide service to the indigent and always have.
You also dont undestsnd the requirements under EMTALA which limits the amount of treatment a hospital must provide that indigent person walking in needing surgery. Hospitals are not required to Provide more than adequate services necessary to stabilize a patient to the point s/he can be transported.
Now heres something else you apparently don’t know;
Non profit hospitals (I don’t know if it applies to for profit hospitals) cannot charge a patient without insurance more than a patient that has insurance. (Yes, an Obamacare requirement)
Of course managed health care providers (such as PPO insurance providers or HMO’s) who have contracts with medical providers do receive discounts under such a contract but that is not the same thing as charging la different price. It is a negotiated discount based on the contractual relationship and is applied to the same price everybody else is charged.
I have been criticized for stirring a pot here. I have also expressed a dislike for those that have turned their green light off. I also won't tolerate you telling me I don't understand something. So to do my part to minimize conflict here, I am now putting you on ignore too. cbg will be next and anyone else who underhandedly turns their green light off.
I have finally connected that thread with you guys.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
BTW - Are you privy to the taxes of a non-profit hospital? If so, you might need a barf bag.
Huh? It would be none since they are tax exempt due to being a non profit hospital.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
jk
Huh? It would be none since they are tax exempt due to being a non profit hospital.
He won't see it since you are on the dreaded ignore list. Pretty soon Taxing is gonna be the only one he does see.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
free9man
He won't see it since you are on the dreaded ignore list. Pretty soon Taxing is gonna be the only one he does see.
Oh. Oh well. It’s obvious he has no idea what he’s talking about.
I think it’s hilarious it bugs him that I turned off my green light. I see it as irrelevent but hey, if it bugs him, it will stay off.
i guess he doesn’t like being told he has no understanding of the laws in play here. Too bad but it’s obvious he doesn’t.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
I am not making this claim, Dr Keith Smith is. He founded and runs his 32Ksqft facility. He posts his prices online for 120 common surgical procedures. He goes into detail about the cozy relationship between insurance companies and hospitals. So I tend to believe him until I see someone debate him and prove him wrong. Give him the time, it will be worth it.
You summarized his claim in one to two sentences. I suspect that summary is not an accurate representation of what he has said. Again, I'm taking issue with the way you stated it. I have not seen his claims and until I do, I cannot comment on those.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
BTW - Are you privy to the taxes of a non-profit hospital?
The term “nonprofit” does not have any meaning in the federal tax law though it does have some meaning in state corporate codes. If you are asking if I am familiar with the tax treatment of hospitals exempt under IRC § 501(c) then the answer is yes.
You did not yet answer what services you think the law is requiring hospitals to provide for free and whether it is all hospitals or just those exempt under IRC § 501(c).
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
cbg will be next and anyone else who underhandedly turns their green light off.
I don’t get why the fact that someone is online or not is such a big deal for you. How does it affect in any way your interaction on this site? You are certainly free to ignore those who use the option to not show as online if you like, of course (though I'm not sure how you conclude who those are with certainty). It just strikes me as an odd thing to get worked up about.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Taxing Matters
You summarized his claim in one to two sentences. I suspect that summary is not an accurate representation of what he has said. Again, I'm taking issue with the way you stated it. I have not seen his claims and until I do, I cannot comment on those.
The term “nonprofit” does not have any meaning in the federal tax law though it does have some meaning in state corporate codes. If you are asking if I am familiar with the tax treatment of hospitals exempt under IRC § 501(c) then the answer is yes.
You did not yet answer what services you think the law is requiring hospitals to provide for free and whether it is all hospitals or just those exempt under IRC § 501(c).
I don’t get why the fact that someone is online or not is such a big deal for you. How does it affect in any way your interaction on this site? You are certainly free to ignore those who use the option to not show as online if you like, of course (though I'm not sure how you conclude who those are with certainty). It just strikes me as an odd thing to get worked up about.
I agree. It makes absolutely no sense to me either. However, I saw some tidbits throughout this post as to why it might bother him. He seems to think that anyone who disagrees with him is required to respond to every post he makes, and if he cannot tell whether on not they are on the forums at any particular time, he cannot tell if they are break his "rule" that they must respond.
Many of us simply quit responding if we think that a thread has gone as far as it should go. This one certainly has, in my humble opinion.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Frankly, I'd just as soon he ignored me. If turning off my online light will get him to do so, I'll happily join the anonymous crowd.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
llworking
He seems to think that anyone who disagrees with him is required to respond to every post he makes, and if he cannot tell whether on not they are on the forums at any particular time, he cannot tell if they are break his "rule" that they must respond.
Welcome to the ignore list. Drinks are in the fridge. Cheese, fruit and crackers are on the table.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Quote:
Quoting
Taxing Matters
You summarized his claim in one to two sentences. I suspect that summary is not an accurate representation of what he has said. Again, I'm taking issue with the way you stated it. I have not seen his claims and until I do, I cannot comment on those.
The term “nonprofit” does not have any meaning in the federal tax law though it does have some meaning in state corporate codes. If you are asking if I am familiar with the tax treatment of hospitals exempt under IRC § 501(c) then the answer is yes.
You did not yet answer what services you think the law is requiring hospitals to provide for free and whether it is all hospitals or just those exempt under IRC § 501(c).
I don’t get why the fact that someone is online or not is such a big deal for you. How does it affect in any way your interaction on this site? You are certainly free to ignore those who use the option to not show as online if you like, of course (though I'm not sure how you conclude who those are with certainty). It just strikes me as an odd thing to get worked up about.
There are many interviews with Dr Smith online. I have listened to about three hours of them. I cannot summarize them to anyone's satisfaction. You'll have to listen to them yourself. However he is a pioneer in what he is disclosing about that cozy relationship.
I do not know what makes a hospitals accept indigent patients but from what Dr Smith says, he goes into detail about what I see a pure corruption. It will blow your socks off.
As for the green light thing, I equate it to standing in a room and having someone walk in to speak to you. Some will stand in front of you and others choose to stand behind one-way glass. IMO, if you are such a coward to do that, I have no time for you. Besides, there are about a half a dozen folks here that I hold in high regard. NONE of them hide like that, so there is a pattern in my observation.
Quote:
Quoting
llworking
I agree. It makes absolutely no sense to me either. However, I saw some tidbits throughout this post as to why it might bother him. He seems to think that anyone who disagrees with him is required to respond to every post he makes, and if he cannot tell whether on not they are on the forums at any particular time, he cannot tell if they are break his "rule" that they must respond.
Many of us simply quit responding if we think that a thread has gone as far as it should go. This one certainly has, in my humble opinion.
That is not how I see it. I sometimes ask a question that will expose the other side, but rather than answer it, they won't respond. This can only be done in this format, never face to face. This allows a person to pick and choose what he answers. But others with integrity will acknowledge that you made a point. It's just a standard that I have.
Like the other day Mr KIA inferred that I was not being truthful. I told him I would PM him the article so he could research it and see for himself, yet he wouldn't accept it. To me that is a sign of low character...something internet forums do to some people over time.
-
Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire
Gee, if only he hadn’t blocked me he would know what makes a hospital accept indigent patients.
Quote:
Quoting
Brian57
Did you know that well over half of our hospitals are non-profit and must show no profit. Well, how is that done when they do a $30K surgery and only have $5K-$10K of costs? When they charge $10K per bed per day?
does everybody know that Brian57 just proved he has absolutely no idea what he’s taking about? A nonprofit hospital actually can and needs to make profit. The fact is they fall under the tax codes a tax exempt based on following the rules the irs laws impose...
and that isn’t that they cannot make profit.