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It Should Always be Legal to Back Into a Parking Spaces

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  • 04-28-2018, 09:57 AM
    Brian57
    It Should Always be Legal to Back Into a Parking Spaces
    I would argue what is the purpose of the sign? If a sign said girls in mini-skirts cannot walk on this premises, it would be unenforceable. If a sign said four cylinder vehicles cannot park in that lot, it would unenforceable. On the same note, why can't a car back into a 90 degree parking stall? If it's for tow-away capabilities, it makes no sense because a large percentage of vehicles are front wheel drive.

    I drive a full size truck and I can only fit into most stalls by backing into it. Furthermore, I rarely see a lot with 90 degree parking require head-in only. It can be required for angled parking stalls but that is different because of traffic flow and safety purposes.

    As said, the sign has no purpose except for a small portion of that lot. Therefore, I would argue that the sign is invalid. Again, a novice could not ague this and win, but IMO a skilled trial lawyer could.
  • 04-28-2018, 10:14 AM
    LegalWriter
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    That type of argument will get you nowhere. It's like saying why should I have to stop at a stop sign in the middle of the night where there are no other cars. You do because there's a sign, period. Besides, the signage determination was made by the city council and the courts are not going override their legislative judgment.
  • 04-28-2018, 10:47 AM
    Brian57
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting LegalWriter
    View Post
    That type of argument will get you nowhere. It's like saying why should I have to stop at a stop sign in the middle of the night where there are no other cars. You do because there's a sign, period. Besides, the signage determination was made by the city council and the courts are not going override their legislative judgment.

    Every sign has a purpose. A stop sign has a purpose. What is the purpose of that sign?

    True, the court would not invalidate the sign. It would have to be fought with those who posted the sign.

    Most of that parking lot should allow back-in parking. Therefore the sign should be more specific, or not be posted at all. IOW, the sign amy be in error and should be removed. If it was put up in error it should be unenforceable.

    Again, it would take a skilled lawyer and a lot of time to undo that citation. But in theory, I believe it could be done.
  • 04-28-2018, 10:52 AM
    cbg
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    The fact that you do not know the purpose of the sign does not mean it has no purpose.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:01 PM
    sniper
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting Brian57
    View Post
    I would argue what is the purpose of the sign?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ocr...s-illegal/amp/


    Quote:

    Question: I got a parking ticket the other day for backing into my parking space in the parking structure on Pomona Avenue near the Metrolink station. I was in a corner spot where backing out would have required me to make a three-point turn in a blind corner.

    Why does Fullerton require head-in parking? It’s a two-way parking structure with perpendicular spaces, so there isn’t a problem with people pulling out the wrong way the way it would be in an angled spot.

    The sour grapes in me (the part that had to write the $25 check) says that it’s either a way for Fullerton to get some money through an arbitrary rule, or it’s a way to recoup money lost by not being able to inspect people’s license plate stickers What’s the real reason?

    Dave Lieberman

    Anaheim

    Answer: I checked with Lt. Kevin Hamilton of the Fullerton Police Department. He said historically, the rule was originally designed for parking lots with shrubbery and trees when the wheel base from the rear to the front was longer. Cars would back into spaces and often damage the plants.

    Dave Langstaff, traffic engineering analyst for the city, filled in the rest of the information. He said, first of all, parking structures and parking lots should all be posted with “no-backing-in” signs. With this ruling, police will be able to check if rear license plates are registered and legal.

    Also, it’s a standard policy to have lot permit tags in the front windows and parking stickers on the back sides of the cars for employees. This prevents motorists from parking in the wrong spaces.

    Barbara Giasone
    If you want to change the law (muni code) for your city go to your city council and demand it be changed. If not, obey the properly posted and prominently displayed sign, regardless of the vehicle type you have.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:20 PM
    Brian57
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting sniper
    View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ocr...s-illegal/amp/

    If you want to change the law (muni code) for your city go to your city council and demand it be changed. If not, obey the properly posted and prominently displayed sign, regardless of the vehicle type you have.

    All three of those reasons are BS.

    1) If the rear of a car can extend further than the front, allow for that in the landscaping plans.

    2) If traffic laws do not require that we drive a certain way so police can see our tags, then it goes without saying that we should not be required to park a certain way so they can see our tags either. Furthermore, without probable cause that a crime has been committed, police and city councils have no bearing over us to require that we show our papers to prove that we are not law breakers. If they suspect that we broke a law, let them collect their evidence on their own time.

    3) The parking permit issue is 90% irrelevant.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:29 PM
    sniper
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Once again, you show your passion for issues have no bearing on the actual laws that are in place. Once again, if you disagree with the placement or wording of an enforceable sign, then you need to bring your issue up with the relevant jurisdiction who governs the sign. If you don't do that you will waste your breath and your feet will hurt from stomping them all the time.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:33 PM
    Brian57
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting sniper
    View Post
    Once again, you show your passion for issues have no bearing on the actual laws that are in place. Once again, if you disagree with the placement or wording of an enforceable sign, then you need to bring your issue up with the relevant jurisdiction who governs the sign. If you don't do that you will waste your breath and your feet will hurt from stomping them all the time.

    I take that you are in agreement that those three reasons are BS.

    BTW - I don't fight all BS laws. Only the ones that I choose to fight. But because I do not choose to fight it doesn't mean it isn't BS.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:37 PM
    cbg
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    My husband, who used to be a stringer for a baseball scout, knows more about the detail of the game than most people. He can tell you all kinds of reasons why, and history of, the most obscure rules of baseball. But even so, occasionally when I ask him why a play was called the way it was, his answer is, Because that's what it says in the rule book.

    Well, guess what. Sometimes you just have to do what the rules say. As long as there is a requirement that you back into the space, you back into the space, whether you agree with the reason for the requirement or not. You can go to the City Council, or whoever is the agency in charge, and you can make your argument to them, and if you are sufficiently persuasive, they can change the rule. But there IS no I-don't-agree-with-the-reason-for-the rule exemption that will allow you to violate it with impunity.
  • 04-28-2018, 12:49 PM
    Brian57
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting cbg
    View Post
    My husband, who used to be a stringer for a baseball scout, knows more about the detail of the game than most people. He can tell you all kinds of reasons why, and history of, the most obscure rules of baseball. But even so, occasionally when I ask him why a play was called the way it was, his answer is, Because that's what it says in the rule book.

    Well, guess what. Sometimes you just have to do what the rules say. As long as there is a requirement that you back into the space, you back into the space, whether you agree with the reason for the requirement or not. You can go to the City Council, or whoever is the agency in charge, and you can make your argument to them, and if you are sufficiently persuasive, they can change the rule. But there IS no I-don't-agree-with-the-reason-for-the rule exemption that will allow you to violate it with impunity.

    I agree that a citation can be written for backing in. I am also aware that it would take a great deal of time and money for a skilled lawyer to fight it just to save the $25.
  • 04-29-2018, 03:37 PM
    asa_jim
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting Brian57
    View Post
    I take that you are in agreement that those three reasons are BS.

    The fact that you believe the reasons are BS is of no consequence. The fact that I might believe they are BS is also of no consequence. The body of elected officials empowered to make such decisions has decided it shall be thus. We all agree to live under and abide by lawful enactments of the elected bodies we have empowered with rule making authority. We do not have a system where each citizen may autonomously decide for himself which rules are BS and can be disregarded. It's called an orderly society.
  • 04-29-2018, 08:30 PM
    Highwayman
    Re: It Should Always be Legal to Back Into Parking Spaces
    Quote:

    Quoting Brian57
    View Post
    I drive a full size truck and I can only fit into most stalls by backing into it.

    You say the signs are BS, well I say what I quoted above is BS. It makes no sense that your truck can only fit into a parking spot one way.
  • 05-01-2018, 04:26 AM
    yyz0
    Re: It Should Always be Legal to Back Into Parking Spaces
    Quote:

    Quoting Highwayman
    View Post
    You say the signs are BS, well I say what I quoted above is BS. It makes no sense that your truck can only fit into a parking spot one way.

    I think what he meant was that it's much easier to back into a spot than it is to pull in/back out.

    Due to the front wheels being the turning wheels, for most people backing into a parking spot and pulling out are easier then the other way around. If you are backing out you can't start your turn till you are almost all the way out of a spot so you have room for your front end to start moving sideways.

    Plus if you've ever had to push a car out of a parking spot because it was pulled in and needs a Jump, that can lead to a habit of backing in so you don't need to push it out if you ever needed to jump it.
  • 05-01-2018, 05:29 PM
    jk
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting sniper
    View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ocr...s-illegal/amp/




    If you want to change the law (muni code) for your city go to your city council and demand it be changed. If not, obey the properly posted and prominently displayed sign, regardless of the vehicle type you have.

    Doesn’t california require a front license plate? If so it would defeat the argument of being able to ensure the registration is valid.
  • 05-01-2018, 06:17 PM
    sniper
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Registration tabs are displayed on the rear plate only for passenger vehicles.
  • 05-01-2018, 06:33 PM
    jk
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting sniper
    View Post
    Registration tabs are displayed on the rear plate only for passenger vehicles.

    Well that’s your fault. Why would you allow a different presentation in the front than what is required on the rear? The state should mandate registration tabs on both the front and rear.


    The op does have an arguable point that the requirement to park front in is unduly onerous on a person who drives a long wheelbase vehicle. Some trucks are faced with aisles narrow enough that parking front in is actually impossible. Backing in allows a different trajectory of the vehicle and allows them to park in a lot with narrow aisles.

    I know that is not a legal defense but at this point, that and hoping for a compassionate adjudicator (who hopefully drives a long truck) is about all the op’s got.
  • 05-02-2018, 02:29 AM
    sniper
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    Well that’s your fault. Why would you allow a different presentation in the front than what is required on the rear? The state should mandate registration tabs on both the front and rear.

    Well, I have no responsibility of what the legislature adds or deletes from the vehicle code so tabs on the rear plate only is no fault of mine. Texas has no tabs on the rear but an inspection sticker in their window. That's goofy and more than likely one of their DPS officers fault.

    Anyway, this instance involves someone who missed the sign that states not to back in because they disregarded the sign that states "do not enter". Something tells me the OP (in the parking issue case) doesn't obey signs anyway.

    Brian needs to lobby his local State senator or Assemblyhuman and ask that nose in or back in parking is availiable anywhere in California.
  • 05-02-2018, 02:48 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    There is also the fact that backing into a space can - and often does - take more time as the vehicle first has to pass the space in question, then position itself, then reverse slowly and carefully into position thus disrupting the flow of traffic along the aisle as people have to stop, or possibly reverse to provide the backer some room. Turning front end in just requires a single movement if done appropriately. So, from a traffic flow perspective, allowing backing into a space can be an issue. And while one can argue the reverse is true, depending upon the city or the nearby venue(s) arrival times may be more problematic and congested than departures.

    There are any number of reasons as to WHY backing in may be prohibited. The point here is that the action WAS prohibited and there was a sign clearly spelling this out. That's not the fault of the parking guy who issued the cite, the police, or anyone else ... except the person who failed to comply with it. It's an "Oops!" moment, not the end of the world and not something that will be litigated any time soon.
  • 05-02-2018, 06:20 AM
    free9man
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    There is also the fact that backing into a space can - and often does - take more time as the vehicle first has to pass the space in question, then position itself, then reverse slowly and carefully into position thus disrupting the flow of traffic along the aisle as people have to stop, or possibly reverse to provide the backer some room. Turning front end in just requires a single movement if done appropriately. So, from a traffic flow perspective, allowing backing into a space can be an issue. And while one can argue the reverse is true, depending upon the city or the nearby venue(s) arrival times may be more problematic and congested than departures.

    Not to mention the road rage when the person behind the person who wants to back in thinks they are passing the space and tries to grab it for themselves by pulling in.
  • 05-02-2018, 02:39 PM
    jk
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    There is also the fact that backing into a space can - and often does - take more time as the vehicle first has to pass the space in question, then position itself, then reverse slowly and carefully into position thus disrupting the flow of traffic along the aisle as people have to stop, or possibly reverse to provide the backer some room. Turning front end in just requires a single movement if done appropriately. So, from a traffic flow perspective, allowing backing into a space can be an issue. And while one can argue the reverse is true, depending upon the city or the nearby venue(s) arrival times may be more problematic and congested than departures.

    There are any number of reasons as to WHY backing in may be prohibited. The point here is that the action WAS prohibited and there was a sign clearly spelling this out. That's not the fault of the parking guy who issued the cite, the police, or anyone else ... except the person who failed to comply with it. It's an "Oops!" moment, not the end of the world and not something that will be litigated any time soon.

    I’m guessing you’ve never driven a crew cab truck and tried to park it in a lot with aisles and possible parking spaces on the narrow side. If you think it takes longer for a truck to back into a space, you would really hate a guy pulling in, backing up to allow a more inline trajectory, pulling forward, having to back up again to attempt to align the truck with the parking space and finally figuring out the aisle is simply too narrow to allow him to park in the space at all.


    I wasnt meaning it was specifically snipers fault your state doesn’t use stickers on front plates. It was a joke. It just seems silly to not require them on both plates so whether coming or going, you, as a cop, can see whether the reg tabs are not outdated.

    And please take note, I acknowledged the fact the ticket would be valid and the only hope I see of anything would be to find a sympathetic judge.
  • 05-02-2018, 03:01 PM
    paddywakk
    Re: It Should Always be Legal to Back Into a Parking Spaces
    YOU picked that vehicle to drive. I would think you knew how you would have to park. A variety of beach cities along the southern CA coast have been enforcing that law in one way or another since I got a ticket over 40 years ago for not having my front wheels less than 15" from the curb (I backed in)
  • 05-02-2018, 04:38 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Parking Sign Not Well Displayed, Thus I Did Not See It; Still Ticketed
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    I’m guessing you’ve never driven a crew cab truck and tried to park it in a lot with aisles and possible parking spaces on the narrow side. If you think it takes longer for a truck to back into a space, you would really hate a guy pulling in, backing up to allow a more inline trajectory, pulling forward, having to back up again to attempt to align the truck with the parking space and finally figuring out the aisle is simply too narrow to allow him to park in the space at all.

    I have seen a great many larger vehicles attempt to squeeze into tiny spaces. Unfortunately, in an effort to squeeze in more spaces they have become narrower and shorter and many parking lots are woefully inadequate for larger vehicles. Just last week when I took a group of 4th graders to San Francisco in a school van, I had to go to 2 lots to find a lot capable of accommodating the van.

    Quote:

    I wasnt meaning it was specifically snipers fault your state doesn’t use stickers on front plates. It was a joke. It just seems silly to not require them on both plates so whether coming or going, you, as a cop, can see whether the reg tabs are not outdated.
    Well, *I* didn't take any offense at it.

    Quote:

    And please take note, I acknowledged the fact the ticket would be valid and the only hope I see of anything would be to find a sympathetic judge.
    Maybe. But, in CA a court hearing for a parking ticket is only held (for a fee) after the two earlier hearings by the citing authority, and then generally to decide the legality of the cite, not the sympathy factor. But, a judge could still decide as they might wish.

    Quote:

    Quoting paddywakk
    View Post
    YOU picked that vehicle to drive. I would think you knew how you would have to park. A variety of beach cities along the southern CA coast have been enforcing that law in one way or another since I got a ticket over 40 years ago for not having my front wheels less than 15" from the curb (I backed in)

    When I was in southern CA, that's what we used: VC 22502. An exception was provided in the muni code for designated angled parking and one way streets.
  • 05-13-2018, 09:14 AM
    Brian57
    Re: It Should Always be Legal to Back Into Parking Spaces
    Quote:

    Quoting Highwayman
    View Post
    You say the signs are BS, well I say what I quoted above is BS. It makes no sense that your truck can only fit into a parking spot one way.

    Do you drive a long truck? Do you have any concept of why a forklift steers with the rear wheels?

    I just found this thread. I thought the original thread it came from was deleted.

    If it came from the Newport thread where the guy entered a parking lot from the exit and was then cited for backing into a stall, the sign is in error. Newport Beach has an ordinance that clearly states that the backing in restriction only applies to angled parking. Yet that sign is posted on a lot that has both angled and perpendicular stalls. I would be curious if the parking enforcement knows that sign only applies to the angled stalls? IMO, the sign needs more specificity.
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