How to Enforce a Custody Order Prohibiting Contact With People the Parents are Dating

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: CA

The Judgement was just signed and filed with the court, and not signed by a judge yet. My spouse had a painful affair, introduced our child to his mistress when she was 4, and stayed in the marriage for a year or so. Our 4 year old child told me about the friend she met, and was confused about what she witnesses.

Fast forward, my spouse moved out, and began brining this same woman around our daughter, asked our daughter to lie to me multiple times. At one point, our daughter told me she was asked to lie - I got my spouse on the phone, and he called our daughter a liar and she head him. Later feeling bad, he admitted he was indeed lying and apologized to our then 6 year old daughter.

This has been an affair that has been toxic for all, but for a child to be involved at this level is horrible. This went on for 2.5 years. My spouse also moved back home twice and left. Our daughter is also distraught by that chaos.

So, I finally filed for divorce, and we checked the box > Third Party Contact > the children will have no contact with > anyone we are dating, past or present, around our daughter to allow the minor child to get used to the dissolution of marriage for the next 12 months.

Its been 30 days since we both signed the judgement, and our daughter came home from her time with her dad and told me her dad had this same woman on speaker phone, and it made my daughter nervous. She did not want any trouble like she has had in the past. Then her dad began telling our daughter that his mistress now turned girlfriend has never done anything bad to her [our daughter].

My question is - how do enforce this 'Third Party Contact' provision? I am worried about this judgement overall and him breaking it, and it may just make the most sense and be better for my daughter to be with me - full custody - or at least less visitation for him at this point. Our daughter should not have to deal with this.

Thoughts?

A four-year-old child could supposedly recognize a specific person's voice as overheard on a speaker phone? That's not much to try to take to court, even if we ignore the fact that you would have to advance this claim through a child who may be too young to give effective testimony, or to qualify to testify at all. You can't make this allegation without pushing your child into center stage in your custody case.

How about having a grown-up conversation with your ex-, and suggesting that he not use the speakerphone around your child in order to prevent the child from overhearing conversations that the child may find confusing?

Also, make sure you're not interrogating the child about what is happening at dad's house, because what is almost certain to happen is that the child will start telling you what you want to hear instead of what actually happened -- and whether or not you realize it, the child knows that you are angry at dad and want dad to get into trouble.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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A four-year-old child could supposedly recognize a specific person's voice as overheard on a speaker phone? That's not much to try to take to court, even if we ignore the fact that you would have to advance this claim through a child who may be too young to give effective testimony, or to qualify to testify at all. You can't make this allegation without pushing your child into center stage in your custody case.

How about having a grown-up conversation with your ex-, and suggesting that he not use the speakerphone around your child in order to prevent the child from overhearing conversations that the child may find confusing?

Also, make sure you're not interrogating the child about what is happening at dad's house, because what is almost certain to happen is that the child will start telling you what you want to hear instead of what actually happened -- and whether or not you realize it, the child knows that you are angry at dad and want dad to get into trouble.

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I think that the child is older now...6 or 7 now.

Yes, she is 7 now. I don't talk about the situation, other than dad and mom decided not to live together and we love and care for each other and always will. I don't bring it up, my daughter just told me what happened. I don't believe courts allow a chid to testify nor will they allow her to be front and center. I am thinking it would need to be a story about all the treatment of her, and then my ex will either have to perjor himself and say he did not ask her to lie and treat her poorly, or he will admit his behavior. But I am not sure. I did send him an email about what happened and asked him to stop having this woman around due to the no contact item. He has not responded at all. At the end of the day, I want her to not have psychological harm from this. My dad was a cheater, and it has impacted me for my entire life. With this no contact for 12 months, it gives time for things to cool off, and then re-introduce the new girlfriend in a positive way. This was our agreement.

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Quoting Janelle

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Yes, she is 7 now. I don't talk about the situation, other than dad and mom decided not to live together and we love and care for each other and always will. I don't bring it up, my daughter just told me what happened. I don't believe courts allow a chid to testify nor will they allow her to be front and center. I am thinking it would need to be a story about all the treatment of her, and then my ex will either have to perjor himself and say he did not ask her to lie and treat her poorly, or he will admit his behavior. But I am not sure. I did send him an email about what happened and asked him to stop having this woman around due to the no contact item. He has not responded at all. At the end of the day, I want her to not have psychological harm from this. My dad was a cheater, and it has impacted me for my entire life. With this no contact for 12 months, it gives time for things to cool off, and then re-introduce the new girlfriend in a positive way. This was our agreement.

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All you can do is reach out and if he ignores you he does. I think though you have a hard time stating he violated this with a voice on the phone. The second she says that the woman showed up at his house while she was there - then you can take him to court. It's sad when people can't be adults in a situation for their children (not saying you aren't OP).

This is a tough one to enforce because it does put the child in the middle - either her telling you directly/lying or manipulating/telling you what they think you want to hear. But it seems like Dad doesn't care about that regardless of what box was checked -- he hasn't played by moral rules in a while, so why would he now? Unfortunately it sounds like this lady IS going to be in your DD's life (and indirectly in yours) especially if he introduced her while still married in a relationship with you. Don't know many cheaters who are that ballsy.....

Is your DD seeing any kind of counselor/therapist? It might be helpful so that she has someone else to tell who might be able to help other than you.

I honestly doubt the court will take away any of his time or change any custody settings unless you can prove that he is putting your child in danger, which honestly he isn't unless she has some type of applicable criminal behavior (example child abuse of her own kids).

It sucks...and I am very sorry that you and your DD are having to experience his selfishness to this level.

I agree that you might want to explore counseling for your child. Even if he played by the rules and introduces her a year from now, your daughter already has unhealthy feelings (nervous) about her and will likely need some help adjusting. It might be better to be proactive about it and start getting her the tools she needs in order to make things as smooth as possible for her.

I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first.

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She can still put the child into counseling.

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Quoting qwaspolk69

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She can still put the child into counseling.

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Nobody said otherwise.

"I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first."

Yeah, don't agree - I did not bring this mistress around her then ask our daughter to lie. There should have just been a divorce, then intro of any new partners. Honesty and taking the child into consideration vs. just doing what he wanted. I am just trying to clean up the mess and impact. And hoping to avoid further impact. And it would be a true story by the way ...

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Quoting Janelle

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"I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first."

Yeah, don't agree - I did not bring this mistress around her then ask our daughter to lie. There should have just been a divorce, then intro of any new partners. Honesty and taking the child into consideration vs. just doing what he wanted. I am just trying to clean up the mess and impact. And hoping to avoid further impact. And it would be a true story by the way ...

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Kids are pretty flexible normally. If you don't make a big deal, then your daughter won't see it as a big deal. I get that initially he was really inappropriate in how he introduced his mistress, but it sounds like it has been a few years since then. And your daughter has been lying to avoid conflict.

Please note what I just said. She's lying to avoid conflict. She knows you will get upset. She knows daddy isn't supposed to bring his lady friends around.

And even if you take him to court, it won't likely stop his behavior.

I agree that counseling is going to be really helpful for your daughter, but I would also suggest you try to extract yourself from worrying about what is happening at the dad's house. Your child is now 7 years old. She understands the idea of boyfriends and girlfriends. At 7, it's an innocent idea, but she will get the general gist of it.

So why not just let it go, and let your daughter (and yourself) have some peace? Yeah sure - he's violating something in the order. But can you win in court, and is it a worthwhile pursuit? If you win, what you will get from it? And what will it do to your daughter?

No one is making a big deal to her. She is ok, but she is uncomfortable because he made her lie, not me. This has not been a few years ago - its been ongoing for 2+ years. He recently up and left about 30 days ago. He did not call for weeks to see how she was.

Peace would be nice. while we go through divorce, and give the kid a break. The soon to be x husband can do what he wants on his own time, just give the kid a break for a while is all I am asking.

If I get custody or have her more, things will be less tense for her. Her dad has not behaved in a way that is super beneficial for her mental health. She is not feeling excited to go see him either, she can see what is happening even at 7.

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Quoting Janelle

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No one is making a big deal to her. She is ok, but she is uncomfortable because he made her lie, not me. This has not been a few years ago - its been ongoing for 2+ years. He recently up and left about 30 days ago. He did not call for weeks to see how she was.

Peace would be nice. while we go through divorce, and give the kid a break. The soon to be x husband can do what he wants on his own time, just give the kid a break for a while is all I am asking.

If I get custody or have her more, things will be less tense for her. Her dad has not behaved in a way that is super beneficial for her mental health. She is not feeling excited to go see him either, she can see what is happening even at 7.

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It's very difficult for a little girl to be happy about going to see one parent when she can sense and feel how upset the other parent is. She will likely feel guilty, on top of it (though she may not understand the word itself, she will know how it feels).

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Quoting Janelle

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"I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first."

Yeah, don't agree - I did not bring this mistress around her then ask our daughter to lie.

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No hon, but you're projecting your anger and hurt (both of which are absolutely understandable) and your mutual child is picking up on it.

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There should have just been a divorce, then intro of any new partners. Honesty and taking the child into consideration vs. just doing what he wanted. I am just trying to clean up the mess and impact. And hoping to avoid further impact. And it would be a true story by the way ...

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Indeed.

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Quoting Janelle

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"I'd expect Dad to argue that Mom is responsible for most of the child's "fears". I'd also expect him to ask Mom to prove her allegations ... without drumming up a "story" first."

Yeah, don't agree - I did not bring this mistress around her then ask our daughter to lie. There should have just been a divorce, then intro of any new partners. Honesty and taking the child into consideration vs. just doing what he wanted. I am just trying to clean up the mess and impact. And hoping to avoid further impact. And it would be a true story by the way ...

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You don't have to agree but it's very likely for him to say that. It doesn't have to be true but he can bring it up in court. Some people are shady as hell. Of course he should have just left and divorced but he didn't. She's not saying you're lying she's telling you what can and has happened in court.

I think people are missing a key factor: He has been having an affair for TWO years and bringing the mistress around the kid. He only left 30 days ago...thirty days since he left the marriage. So he's been parading his mistress around his kid for two years WHILE still married to her mom. That right there will screw a kid up.

I know how it is - my mom had an affair for 12 years of my parents' marriage. When she finally left was right before I went to college so they were married 24 years at that point. Half their marriage she cheated - and we ALL knew about it. She didn't bring him around but she met him because he and his then second wife were friends with my mom and dad. My mom ended up taking off on her weekends off to go see the guy - and we found out at the divorce my youngest brother is the result of it. She ended up marrying the guy - and we all hate him. (We also hated our mom for awhile too). They ruined our childhood but he could have easily stayed away. Also he's an abusive prick. My dad never talked about the guy to us. We figured it out because the entire town new and we got picked on about it. Sometimes he came home and would ask where she was and we would say "where do you think?"

Let's not put the blame on the OP here. She has every right to be angry and hurt. I know my dad was but he didn't project it on us. Most of the time he was tired as hell because he worked two jobs to take care of us. We got used to our mom being gone. But it still hurt and sucked she chose that man" over her kids.

Kids do pick up on a lot of things that's true - and if the OP is saying he ran around with this woman for two years I can see how her daughter is afraid and has anxiety.

Yeah, the x husband just has shown a huge lack of judgement, lack of focus on our daughter and giving her a happy childhood, and has just treated all of us horrible. I had to be there while our daughter cried when he left multiple times after promising he would be there.

I just want it to stop - and have him see her less to minimize further issues.

I am not projecting onto her - we are good, smiles and happy. I told her to have fun with her dad when she left. I just think the x is a narcissist, and will continue to do damage based on this behavior. If its not the OW, what will it be next? He seems to have some screws lose.

So I want to get more time with my daughter and less time with him.

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Quoting Janelle

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Yeah, the x husband just has shown a huge lack of judgement, lack of focus on our daughter and giving her a happy childhood, and has just treated all of us horrible. I had to be there while our daughter cried when he left multiple times after promising he would be there.

I just want it to stop - and have him see her less to minimize further issues.

I am not projecting onto her - we are good, smiles and happy. I told her to have fun with her dad when she left. I just think the x is a narcissist, and will continue to do damage based on this behavior. If its not the OW, what will it be next? He seems to have some screws lose.

So I want to get more time with my daughter and less time with him.

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So, if Dad kicked out OW, you'd be fine with his current parenting time right?

Hmmm?

The thing is, Dad can be the biggest POS in the world, but you picked him to be her father, and he has the right to exercise visitation and have access to his child. You signed the no third party contact and there has been no mention of the OW being around your daughter since then other then the speaker phone incident. As for that incident, was the OW trying to speak to your child? Or did your daughter walk in while he was talking to his girlfriend. Unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to protect her from every little scenario that could pop up. What if she were to see the OW at the grocery store with you? Or something equally coincidental. Your daughter is going to have to start learning some coping skills to help her overcome the issues her father has already caused, but I don't see minimizing his parenting time to be the initial option the court goes for.

No, again, its his judgement. If not this OW, whats next? I would like to take down the amount of his parenting time based on his lack of judgement and behavior, which is continuing.

unless he is doing something to directly harm the child(ren), a judge isn't going to take away parenting time based on your perspective of his lack of judgment/behavior. Is he leaving the child(ren) home unattended, in a parked car, etc? Unfortunately for you, courts see your perspective as biased.

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Quoting Janelle

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No, again, its his judgement. If not this OW, whats next? I would like to take down the amount of his parenting time based on his lack of judgement and behavior, which is continuing.

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Courts don't take parenting time away for what a parent "might do," so "what's next," doesn't apply. Yes, your ex was a jerk, but so far he seems to be following the rules that the court set forth. It is very unlikely that the court is going to reduce parenting time when he is following the rules.

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Quoting Janelle

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No, again, its his judgement. If not this OW, whats next? I would like to take down the amount of his parenting time based on his lack of judgement and behavior, which is continuing.

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Not going to happen.