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Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property

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  • 05-27-2017, 05:47 PM
    RosemontReporter
    Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    My question involves a clarification for a law in Pennsylvania.

    Hi, I am a high school news reporter that has noticed that a number of school buses at my school ignore the stop sign that is at the end of a school driveway where it meets a main road. The buses all leave in a line. I am trying to determine whether or not this is against the law. I belive the Pennsylvania law is a little bit vague regarding whether or not it is illegal as the stop signs are on private school property. I have barely found any information online to help me figure out the answer with the exception of this article from 2005 http://articles.mcall.com/2005-10-21...ivate-property

    Any help is greatly appreciated.
  • 05-27-2017, 08:25 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    A good reporter should be able to cultivate credible sources of information. Find yourself a local police station, introduce yourself as a high school news reporter and conduct some interviews.

    What you will probably learn is that the police aren't going to ticket school bus drivers for doing that and it wouldn't even matter unless a school bus is involved in an accident after sliding through the stop sign. Even then it wouldn't matter if there was no traffic ticket because the law of negligence would apply.
  • 05-27-2017, 10:45 PM
    PTPD22
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    Whether law enforcement is likely to enforce such a violation is a different question than whether a violation according to statutory definitions has occurred. I am not versed in PA law and, therefore, cannot answer the question. However, I suspect that the answer will depend on the specific location of the stop sign(s). Does “private school property” mean that the property belongs to a private (ie., not publicly funded) school? If so, then it is possible that obedience to the signs is not enforceable – not sure if that is true in PA specifically, but it would be someplace to start your research.

    If you are looking into this because you feel that there is an actual or potential safety concern, there is a likely simple solution that you could suggest to school officials. Someone legally authorized to direct traffic could be posted at the driveway to stop traffic and allow the buses to exit. This would likely not need to be a police officer. Trained flaggers or crossing guards typically have legal authority to direct traffic and allow vehicles to disregard otherwise enforceable traffic control signs and signals - again, I cannot state that this is specifically true in PA. But, that is something else a good investigative reporter could research.
  • 05-28-2017, 05:22 AM
    budwad
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    Quote:

    Quoting RosemontReporter
    View Post
    I belive the Pennsylvania law is a little bit vague regarding whether or not it is illegal as the stop signs are on private school property.

    If this is a public school, then the land is likely public land owned by a Board of Education or a municipality. The stop sign is also likely in the road easement right-of-way as are all traffic control signs. And, even if the land was private, a site plan approval by a local jurisdiction or an agreement resolution or ordinance to enforce traffic control by a local jurisdiction all would make the sign enforceable.
  • 05-28-2017, 06:24 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    The "sign" may not be enforceable. Unlike other states, PA doesn't require a stop before entering roadway, just that the driver yields.
  • 05-28-2017, 08:08 AM
    budwad
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    The law in PA is that you only have to yield and not stop when entering a roadway absent any traffic control device.

    Quote:

    2010 Pennsylvania Code
    Title 75 - VEHICLES
    Chapter 33 - Rules of the Road in General
    3324 - Vehicle entering or crossing roadway.
    § 3324. Vehicle entering or crossing roadway.
    The driver of a vehicle about to enter or cross a roadway from any place other than another roadway shall yield the right- of-way to all vehicles approaching on the roadway to be entered or crossed.

    Cross References. Section 3324 is referred to in section
    1535 of this title.
    The COURT OF COMMON PLEAS made it clear that you do not have to stop or signal entering a roadway in this suppression of evidence case.

    Quote:

    .IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF LYCOMING COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
    COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA : NO. CR – 1543 - 2006
    :
    vs. : CRIMINAL DIVISION
    :
    WILLIAM MICHAEL BLACKWELL, :
    Defendant : Motion to Suppress
    OPINION AND ORDER

    Before the Court is Defendant’s Motion to Suppress, filed December 15, 2006. A hearing on the motion was held February 12, 2007. Defendant was charged with arious drug offenses after a traffic stop on August 13, 2006, led to the discovery of controlled substances. In his Motion to Suppress, Defendant contends the initial traffic stop was made without probable cause, and seeks to suppress all evidence obtained as a result of the stop.

    According to the stipulated facts presented, the traffic stop was made on the basis that Defendant turned east onto East Third Street from the TGI Friday’s parking lot without first stopping at the properly posted stop sign and without activating the proper turn signal. Also stipulated to, is the fact that there is no stop sign at that location. Defendant argues there was no probable cause to support the traffic stop as there was no requirement for him to either stop or signal before turning onto East Third Street.

    Section 3324 of the Vehicle Code requires the driver of a vehicle “about to enter or cross a roadway from any place other than another roadway” to “yield the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching on the roadway”, 75 Pa.C.S. Section 3324, but does not require that vehicle to otherwise stop. Since a parking lot is not a roadway, there is no requirement to stop before entering a roadway from a parking lot.

    Since a “roadway” is defined as a “portion of a highway”, 75 Pa.C.S. Section 102, it stands to reason that a parking lot is thus also not a roadway. There was no allegation Defendant failed to yield to any on-coming traffic, merely that he failed to stop.

    Similarly, Section 3334 of the Vehicle Code prohibits a person from turning a vehicle without giving an appropriate signal “upon a roadway”. 75 Pa.C.S. Section 3334(a). Since a parking lot is not a roadway, there is no requirement to signal upon turning from the parking lot.

    As the two alleged violations upon which the troopers based the stop were in fact not violations, the troopers did not have the requisite probable cause to stop Defendant’s vehicle.

    Consequently, all evidence obtained as a result of the stop must be suppressed. Bolding added.



    ORDER
    AND NOW, this 15th day of February 2007, for the foregoing reasons, Defendant’s Motion to Suppress is hereby GRANTED. All evidence obtained as a result of the traffic stop of Defendant’s vehicle on August 13, 2006, is hereby SUPPRESSED and shall not be introduced into evidence at trial.
    BY THE COURT,
    Dudley N. Anderson, Judge
    cc: DA.
    However, I have not been able to find any case that says that a legally posted stop sign can be ignored when entering a roadway.
  • 05-28-2017, 09:33 AM
    jk
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    If the sign was posted by the municipality it is an enforceable sign. The issue of it being private or public property is a red herring. It is within the highway right of way and deals with entering a public roadway and as such is enforceable.

    The private property issue deals with issues solely on private property such as a mall parking lot, not where it adjoins a public roadway.

    PA has obviously not adopted the uniform traffic code like many other states have which requires a full stop prior to entering any public roadway from any private property. As provided by others if there is no sign present one merely has to yield to traffic on the roadway.
  • 05-28-2017, 03:03 PM
    Highwayman
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    Quote:

    Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    What you will probably learn is that the police aren't going to ticket school bus drivers for doing that...


    Why not? I certainly would. Write one of them and chances are the behavior will quickly stop.
  • 05-28-2017, 03:52 PM
    jk
    Re: Can a Line of School Buses Ignore Stop Signs on the Edge of School Property
    Quote:

    Quoting Highwayman
    View Post
    Why not? I certainly would. Write one of them and chances are the behavior will quickly stop.

    I can see the basis for not stopping, especially if there are a lot of busses but I would suggest the school get permission to have somebody direct traffic and allow the busses to exit the school en masse rather than risk the consequences of just running the stop sign.
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