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Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record

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  • 11-21-2016, 03:16 PM
    huntsab
    Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    This concerns the State of California.

    Recently, a citizen published a video showing numerous officers assaulting an unarmed man they were arresting. I asked the PD if the officers had been placed on paid administrative leave. He said that information was a personnel matter and, therefore, confidential.

    Is this correct? Where would I look for this law?

    Thank you.
  • 11-21-2016, 04:33 PM
    L-1
    Re: Does the Public Have a Right to Know if Police Have Been Placed on Paid Admin Lea
    The authority to withhold peace officer personnel information is found in Section 832.7 of the California Penal Code and Section 6254(c) of the Government Code which exempts public employee personnel records from public disclosure under the State's Public Records Act.
  • 11-21-2016, 05:54 PM
    cbg
    Re: Does the Public Have a Right to Know if Police Have Been Placed on Paid Admin Lea
    I saw the subject heading of this thread and knew immediately who the poster was, without even looking. I was right.
  • 11-21-2016, 06:44 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    This concerns the State of California.

    Recently, a citizen published a video showing numerous officers assaulting an unarmed man they were arresting. I asked the PD if the officers had been placed on paid administrative leave. He said that information was a personnel matter and, therefore, confidential.

    Is this correct? Where would I look for this law?

    Thank you.

    Yes, it IS correct as L-1 has provided.

    I am curious about this video. One man's "assault" is another man's "justified use of force." All because YOU might think it to be assault does not mean it was. And video too often fails to show the whole story or the context of the event - hence the problem of relying solely on video to render a judgement.
  • 11-22-2016, 05:15 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Often, the public is told when police are placed on paid administrative leave. Why is this different?
  • 11-22-2016, 05:56 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Often, the public is told when police are placed on paid administrative leave. Why is this different?

    It is possible that with so many police officers being gunned down lately, some departments are choosing to keep everything close to the vest.
  • 11-22-2016, 06:46 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Fear of retaliation? I didn't ask for names.
  • 11-22-2016, 06:57 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Fear of retaliation? I didn't ask for names.

    Then who knows? You can certainly ask them why but at the end of the day, they are not legally required to divulge the names.
  • 11-22-2016, 07:30 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    No one here can say why the agency chose not to state whether officers were on Admin leave or not. Such things are personnel matters and the agency may choose to decline to say on that basis. If you disagree with their assessment, you are free to hire an attorney and sue to force them to divulge the status or not. Though, that's an expensive option just to find out if an officer is on Admin leave or not.
  • 11-22-2016, 08:35 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Because of the expense it is not an option for most ordinary citizens and small news outlets.
    What we have is a secret investigation of secret police.
    That's not going to work...
  • 11-22-2016, 08:49 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Because of the expense it is not an option for most ordinary citizens and small news outlets.
    What we have is a secret investigation of secret police.
    That's not going to work...

    What secret police? The investigations have pretty much always been confidential in CA. If you want that to change, someone is going to have to step up with the $$$$ to fight for that change.
  • 11-22-2016, 09:10 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Yeah, we'll need just a little more $$$ than the police unions.

    We'll get their names when we get sued.
  • 11-22-2016, 09:25 AM
    budwad
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Why do you members of this forum (that I hold most in high regard) play into this bull sh*t? It must be a slow and boring day.:friendly_wink:
  • 11-22-2016, 10:02 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting budwad
    View Post
    Why do you members of this forum (that I hold most in high regard) play into this bull sh*t? It must be a slow and boring day.:friendly_wink:

    While he can be hardheaded and obstinate at times, huntsab is passionate and sincere in his desire to reform things (whether we agree if reform is needed or not). He may not like what we tell him sometimes but he usually accepts it, especially from Carl.
  • 11-22-2016, 10:27 AM
    Mark47n
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    While I 'll not always agree with the police union or the way that individual locals conduct their business, make no mistake that unions consider protecting their employees their first and foremost responsibility. Does that always go down well? No, but most of the time you'll never hear about it. This goes for ALL unions. It's their entire reason for being. Part of that is protecting the individuals right to privacy regarding, not only their personnel records but their identity wherever possible. They aren't public servants in the way that our elected official are, they are employees. Having worked on all sides of the union, member, non union and management in a union shop I can tell you in all confidence that this is a good thing.

    This is tough one to keep my personal views out!
  • 11-22-2016, 11:21 AM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Because of the expense it is not an option for most ordinary citizens and small news outlets.
    What we have is a secret investigation of secret police.
    That's not going to work...

    In general the law protects most parts of a government employee’s personnel file from being required to be disclosed under freedom of information/public record access laws. It is not unique to the police nor unique to California. Some of the laws are simply discretionary, i.e. allow the agency to refuse to disclose to it, while others are mandatory and prohibit the agency from disclosing it. Either way, the basic policy here is generally the same: the public employee is entitled to a certain degree of privacy concerning his/her work record. As California law permits agencies to refuse to disclose most details of a police officer’s personnel file under California’s Public Records Act (PRA) that Act cannot be the basis for a lawsuit to compel the disclosure. You’d need to find some other basis to compel disclosure under California law, if there is one. Otherwise, it would just end up being a waste of your time and money to pursue it.

    IMO your use of the term “secret police” is erroneous here. While certainly some information about the police is kept confidential, at least while an investigation is ongoing, much of what they do is exposed to public view. We know who the police are, what their powers and authority are, what arrests they make, what their budgets are, etc. It is quite unlike the secret police of some dictatorships which operate in near total secrecy and employ methods, including torture and murder, to pursue those deemed enemies of the state. In those nations no one outside the police organization and the few who control it have any idea who is part of the organization, what it does, what rules, if any, apply to it. Opponents of those governments may simply disappear at the hands of the secret police without any information about what happened to them. You might desire more transparency than we have with respect to our law enforcement, but the fact that it is not as open as you like is not the same thing as amounting to a “secret police.”
  • 11-22-2016, 12:17 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Yeah, we'll need just a little more $$$ than the police unions.

    We'll get their names when we get sued.

    Yeah ... that's not the police unions (which, aside from a handful of large agencies, are rather poor and often too poor to litigate much of anything), it's cities and counties that fight the release of personnel records. Why? Because that's the law.

    And who is "we", and why would you be sued by the city or a police union?
  • 11-22-2016, 12:32 PM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    The City will be sued by the victim of this incident of police brutality. "We" will pay all expenses and the settlement.
  • 11-22-2016, 01:26 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    The City will be sued by the victim of this incident of police brutality. "We" will pay all expenses and the settlement.

    Of course, if it was justified, then it will not BE "police brutality."

    But, the taxpayers will, of course, have to pay for the defense and any award that might result. Or, as is most likely if there is fault to be had, an out of court settlement (as is most likely, even when there is no fault).
  • 11-22-2016, 05:29 PM
    cbg
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Y'know, the thing that bothers me about this guy is that no matter what the situation or circumstances, the police in question are, in his mind, not only guilty until proven innocent, but even if proven innocent (or at least, not guilty - I acknowledge the difference) he refuses to accept it and insists it's a cover-up. His bias is so intense that all anyone has to do is make an accusation and as far as he's concerned, that officer is guilty as charged no matter what.

    I get that he wants accountability. I don't have a problem with that, overall. I have a problem with the fact that there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will ever convince him that any police officer is anything but guilty of - whatever.

    And the mood of my post is not derision, but sadness.
  • 11-23-2016, 05:27 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Did you see the video?
  • 11-23-2016, 05:58 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Did you see the video?

    Given that we have no idea which video you are talking about, probably not. I did some google-fu and found one from El Centro. The quality of the video is so bad that it is impossible to tell if it was excessive or not. The suspect appears to be actively resisting at different parts of the video. Different officers strike him at different times, most likely based on who had the ability to do so without hitting a fellow officer. I do not have K-9 training and rarely worked with them but in my opinion, they probably could have removed the dog from the equation earlier. I wasn't on scene though so I don't know what the K-9 officer was seeing.
  • 11-23-2016, 06:56 AM
    cbg
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    I've told this story several times before but I doubt it will do any good.

    A video does not show the whole story. Back in the time of the Rodney King - we'll call it an incident - I worked with a woman who lived in Simi Valley, ground zero for the whole deal. She told me that locally, the entire video was shown, not just the segment that was nationally shown. Put into context of the entire thing, she said, it looked entirely different than it did taken out of context and shown on its own.

    "Edited for television" can make a WHOLE lot of difference. The video - and no, I did not see it, nor will I, for the reason stated above - is not the whole story or all the evidence.
  • 11-23-2016, 09:17 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    What CBG said.

    Video is not the panacea to all things. Video is one dimensional. It does not show context and it does not show the same 360 degree field of view that the officer might be reacting to. It often distorts distances making them appear further or shorter than they really are. Video is a great tool to assist in evaluating the situation, but it is NOT the WHOLE story and was never meant to be.

    ANd, no, I have not seen the video, either. Perhaps you can let us know what video you are looking at.
  • 11-24-2016, 08:45 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Sorry. El Centro PD-Saenz arrest.
  • 11-24-2016, 09:07 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Sorry. El Centro PD-Saenz arrest.

    Sounds like the one I was talking about.
  • 11-24-2016, 09:24 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Yes.
  • 11-24-2016, 12:11 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Well, it looks like the force may have been overboard ... but, of course, the angle is poor, and the video begins rather late in the game.

    Though, apparently Mr. Saenz was a fleeing felon in a stolen car, struck other cars, and then fought with officers at the scene. And, if the audio in the video is to be believed, he was failing to comply with officers' instructions.

    I'll wait and see where the facts fall, not just the hyperbole.

    Ultimately, I suspect the city will offer Mr. Saenz a settlement without admitting guilt (aka "go away money") and the matter will be quietly resolved a year from now. This is how most such things go.

    And, hopefully, Mr. Saenz will be able to compensate his victims through any funds he might otherwise have received.
  • 11-24-2016, 02:51 PM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    What do you see? Adrenaline, anger?

    Can training prevent this kind of response?

    What kind of training?

    I remember Sully Sullenberger talking about having a strong physical reaction when his aircraft was in trouble.

    He said something about relying on his "training" to quickly regain control and calm down.

    Do you know what he was talking about?

    I believe he had a military background.
  • 11-24-2016, 03:10 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    I see a video that starts well into a conflict involving acts by one or more officers that MAY be in excess of what one might consider "reasonable." However, before I could even begin to try and speculate as to the reasonableness or how to address future instances of excess, I would want to know the FACTS. All we have is a video, the fact that a thug was pursued across town in a stolen vehicle and placed many others at risk before he was finally caught and struggled with officers.

    I am sure that there will be fallout over this and there will be proposals to try and address whatever happened. Though, as with all such uses of force - whether reasonable or excessive, the end result could have been prevented had the suspect done one thing: Complied.
  • 12-08-2016, 08:07 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    As of today, there is still no criminal investigation. There is an "administrative review of policies and procedures."

    Does this case, just based on the evidence in the video, warrant a criminal investigation?

    Should the criminal investigation take place before any internal review?

    How can an internal review taint a subsequent criminal investigation?
  • 12-08-2016, 08:32 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    You do not know if there is or is NOT a criminal investigation. All because the DA is not announcing an investigation, protocol says that they will review it for the possibility of criminal charges.

    And, no, there is no need for a criminal investigation to proceed first. In fact, any internal investigation has a one year time limit whereas a criminal one has from one to three years, or more - depending on the allegations. But, in many instances, an internal investigation will defer to a criminal one. If not, and they occur at the same time, they conduct what is called a "bifurcated" investigation wherein the criminal investigators can pass their findings on to the internal investigators, but the internal investigators will not pass along info to the criminal side. Yet, there is always the real possibility that internal info will leak to the criminal investigation and thus poison it.

    These things can take time. We've seen the results of rushing to prosecution ... Maryland, for instance. Justice cannot be rushed lest it run an increased risk of failure.
  • 12-08-2016, 02:49 PM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    I called the police chief. He said he is not aware of any criminal investigation into this incident.

    This is consistent with what the Public Information Officer told me.

    He asked the sheriff to conduct an administrative review.

    The sheriff spent 28 years at this PD-6 or 7 as police chief. 22 with the current police chief.

    Is it reasonable to ask the CA AG to investigate?

    Can a city council make that request?

    We are small; everyone knows everyone.

    The DA's Office is full of former police from this department, as well.
  • 12-08-2016, 05:44 PM
    L-1
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    I called the police chief. He said he is not aware of any criminal investigation into this incident.

    This is consistent with what the Public Information Officer told me.

    First I have to ask, what would be the basis for seeking a criminal investigation? Seriously, what does the law say about police use of force and what specific acts shown in the video suggests that use of force laws were violated? Remember how everyone thought the Rodney King tape was so horrible? The judge in the Federal Trial ruled that only the last six blows were excessive and unlawful.

    I looked at the video several times. It is shot from a distance, is not clear and does not show much. According to the accompanying news stories, the officers were attempting to arrest a fleeing felon who was violently resisting. The tape does show the officer using force to overcome someone who is violently kicking them and thrashing his body around. At the same time, someone in the background is disingenuously shouting that the suspect is not resisting and is berating the officers for defending themselves. When the suspect stops kicking and thrashing, the officers stop applying force, which is reasonable and proper conduct on their part. I am at a loss to see anything on the video that would support a criminal investigation directed at the officers.

    Most use of force is ugly, but that doesn't make it unlawful.

    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    He asked the sheriff to conduct an administrative review.

    The sheriff spent 28 years at this PD-6 or 7 as police chief. 22 with the current police chief.

    Is it reasonable to ask the CA AG to investigate?

    Can a city council make that request?

    We are small; everyone knows everyone.

    The DA's Office is full of former police from this department, as well.

    An administrative review seeks to simply determine whether an officer's conduct violated departmental policy. The Sheriff and DA must first declare a conflict of interest. Were the City Council to request an AG's investigation without such a conflict admission it would be tantamount to a public declaration of No Confidence in the integrity of the Sheriff and DA's office.

    Can you cite specific, reasonable facts establishing that the Sheriff or District Attorney would sacrifice their personal integrity or that of their office to cover up a rule violation, or is this just assumption and innuendo on your part?

    Because this would be an unusual request made with no reasonable basis in fact, The AG's office would no doubt charge the city for its services. Because money from this year's city budget has already been allocated, supplemental funds would need to come from somewhere to pay for the AG. Depending on the complexity of the investigation, the number of personnel hours involved and whether it would just be handled by DOJ's law enforcement Division or a Deputy Attorney General gets into the mix, you might be looking at up to $35,000 in costs. Any thoughts on where that money might come from?
  • 12-09-2016, 05:03 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    "Remember how everyone thought the Rodney King tape was so horrible?"

    I remember 2 cops were convicted and sentenced to prison.

    "
    The tape does show the officer using force to overcome someone who is violently kicking them and thrashing his body around."

    He was being bitten by a police dog, punched, kicked and beaten by multiple cops with batons.

    He he may have been combative, but the batons came out when he was on the ground being attacked.

    Do you think the RK beating deserved a criminal investigation?
  • 12-09-2016, 05:47 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    "[COLOR=#333333]Remember how everyone thought the Rodney King tape was so horrible?"

    I remember 2 cops were convicted and sentenced to prison.

    The point he was making was that a court found only a small portion (6 impact blows) of the overall force to be excessive ... and that was on a SECOND trial. What may look like excessive force to the average Joe may not actually BE excessive ... legally speaking.

    Quote:

    "The tape does show the officer using force to overcome someone who is violently kicking them and thrashing his body around."

    He was being bitten by a police dog, punched, kicked and beaten by multiple cops with batons.

    He he may have been combative, but the batons came out when he was on the ground being attacked.
    I have had cause to use a baton on a person on the ground, and have seen a Taser used on a person on the ground as well. Being on the ground does not mean the suspect is complying or not a threat. That MAY be the case, but it is not automatically so. That is why these things are evaluated and not simply sent off to the media to be judged.

    Quote:

    Do you think the RK beating deserved a criminal investigation?
    Of course. Though, most people forget about what happened long before the tape was rolling, and what occurred in the minutes leading up to the infamous 2 minutes that were all over the news.
  • 12-09-2016, 06:50 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Does this case warrant a criminal investigation?
  • 12-09-2016, 07:07 AM
    free9man
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Does this case warrant a criminal investigation?

    No one here can really say. We don't have all the evidence and making a judgment based on an out-of-context video clip that is of poor quality and does not capture the entire situation would be inappropriate.
  • 12-09-2016, 09:23 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    Does this case warrant a criminal investigation?

    It warrants scrutiny as do all use of force situations. But, whether that means it should be a CRIMINAL investigation is something no one here can say.
  • 12-10-2016, 05:59 AM
    huntsab
    Re: Is a Police Officer's Administrative Suspension a Matter of Public Record
    Given the Sheriff is conducting the administrative review and IA cannot share information with criminal investigators, would a criminal investigation need to be conducted by a different agency, altogether?
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