Seizure of Alcoholic Beverages at a Concert Venue

I've been thinking about this case lately, and I wonder: If someone purchases water or alcohol at a concert, what right does a security guard have to take the water or alcohol away from the purchaser when the purchaser is leaving the concert?

Does the purchaser not have the right to his legally purchased property?

And if a security guard has the power to take away legally purchased water or alcohol, what is to stop that same security guard from taking away a person's other possessions (such as a cell phone, a camera, a watch)?

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

I've been thinking about this case lately, and I wonder: If someone purchases water or alcohol at a concert, what right does a security guard have to take the water or alcohol away from the purchaser when the purchaser is leaving the concert?

Does the purchaser not have the right to his legally purchased property?

And if a security guard has the power to take away legally purchased water or alcohol, what is to stop that same security guard from taking away a person's other possessions (such as a cell phone, a camera, a watch)?

---

In many states, Ohio included, open alcoholic beverages cannot be carried out of the venue from where they have been sold. They have to be consumed in the venue. The rules do not apply to water, but obviously the officer had some reason to believe that the cup contained something other than water.

Quote:

---

Quoting llworking

---

In many states, Ohio included, open alcoholic beverages cannot be carried out of the venue from where they have been sold. They have to be consumed in the venue.

---

If the alcohol is put into a bottle and the bottle is closed, would it be OK to take the closed bottle full of alcohol out of the venue?

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

If the alcohol is put into a bottle and the bottle is closed, would it be OK to take the closed bottle full of alcohol out of the venue?

---

Generally once the seal is broken, you have an "open container." I don't go to many concert venues, but every one I have gone to serves alcohol in an open container.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

If the alcohol is put into a bottle and the bottle is closed, would it be OK to take the closed bottle full of alcohol out of the venue?

---

No, in the states where it matters, the only acceptable way to carry alcohol is if it is still sealed. Now, people do carry alcohol in closed but unsealed bottles fairly often, like when I closed my restaurant and transported about 50 unsealed bottles of alcohol from the restaurant to my home, however technically its not legal.

So, let's say that I'm carrying a closed but unsealed bottle of water, and that a security guard or a police officer is demanding that I throw the bottle away before leaving (because the bottle COULD contain alcohol). What are my rights? Do I have the right to force the security guard or the officer to PROVE that the bottle contains alcohol?

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

So, let's say that I'm carrying a closed but unsealed bottle of water, and that a security guard or a police officer is demanding that I throw the bottle away before leaving (because the bottle COULD contain alcohol). What are my rights? Do I have the right to force the security guard or the officer to PROVE that the bottle contains alcohol?

---

If you were stupid enough to escalate something like that over a bottle of water then you would deserve the hassle/consequences.

Quote:

---

Quoting llworking

---

If you were stupid enough to escalate something like that over a bottle of water then you would deserve the hassle/consequences.

---

Well, for some of us, having enough water at all times is important for health reasons. So, can you just answer my legal questions?

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

So, let's say that I'm carrying a closed but unsealed bottle of water, and that a security guard or a police officer is demanding that I throw the bottle away before leaving (because the bottle COULD contain alcohol). What are my rights? Do I have the right to force the security guard or the officer to PROVE that the bottle contains alcohol?

---

Fly much?

Quote:

---

Quoting geek

---

Fly much?

---

I wasn't asking about flying. I was asking about entertainment venues on the ground.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

I wasn't asking about flying. I was asking about entertainment venues on the ground.

---

Yes, they can take your water bottle away.

Satisfied?

Quote:

---

Quoting geek

---

Yes, they can take your water bottle away.

Satisfied?

---

Actually, I am not satisfied. What law allows them to take away my bottle, without having to prove that there is alcohol in there? If I open up the bottle and let them smell the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol, can they still take the bottle?

And, if they take the bottle, what I am I supposed to do about water? Some of these concerts let out late at night, after all the stores have closed.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

Actually, I am not satisfied. What law allows them to take away my bottle, without having to prove that there is alcohol in there? If I open up the bottle and let them smell the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol, can they still take the bottle?

And, if they take the bottle, what I am I supposed to do about water? Some of these concerts let out late at night, after all the stores have closed.

---

The likelihood that someone will take your water bottle is pretty slim, but I'm sure they could cite some sort of venue regulation or security concern (doesn't have to be a "law") if you behaved in such a way that led them to believe you were looking for trouble.

If they take the bottle, I doubt you'll perish of thirst between the time you leave the venue and the time you get home.

Quote:

---

Quoting geek

---

The likelihood that someone will take your water bottle is pretty slim, but I'm sure they could cite some sort of venue regulation or security concern (doesn't have to be a "law") if you behaved in such a way that led them to believe you were looking for trouble.

---

If I'm already leaving the venue and I prevent them from taking the bottle and there is no law that allows them to take the bottle, then I guess the worst thing they can do legally is to memorize my face and to prevent me from coming back into the venue.

If I am leaving the venue with the bottle and they try to restrain me, I can treat their action as an illegal kidnapping and can defend myself accordingly. Correct?

It's not kidnapping. All it takes is an articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed for an LEO to seize you.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

So, let's say that I'm carrying a closed but unsealed bottle of water, and that a security guard or a police officer is demanding that I throw the bottle away before leaving (because the bottle COULD contain alcohol). What are my rights? Do I have the right to force the security guard or the officer to PROVE that the bottle contains alcohol?

---

Unless the alcohol is vodka, it is not going to look like water. And you are free to decline the search, if you wish. But, you may then run the risk of a detention or arrest - depending on the venue and the nature of the security or law enforcement on scene.

BEST bet, consume the alcohol before leaving!

Quote:

---

Quoting cdwjava

---

Unless the alcohol is vodka, it is not going to look like water. And you are free to decline the search, if you wish. But, you may then run the risk of a detention or arrest - depending on the venue and the nature of the security or law enforcement on scene.

BEST bet, consume the alcohol before leaving!

---

I don't think that you understand the hypothetical that I was presenting.

I do not drink alcohol. I drink only water. Let's say that I have a bottle that contains water. Let's say that the security guard thinks that my bottle COULD contain alcohol. So, Mr. Security Guard decides to force me to throw out the bottle before leaving.

I need the bottle of water for my trip home. I do not want to throw out my bottle of water. Having water outside the venue is not illegal.

So, what are my rights? Can I force the security guard to prove that the bottle contains alcohol? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol, will that be enough (from a legal standpoint) to force the security guard to allow me to leave? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol and I leave the venue and I am arrested for having alcohol outside the venue, can I sue for false arrest?

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

I don't think that you understand the hypothetical that I was presenting.

---

Sure I do. But, if you try to leave with amber "water," you can bet that security or law enforcement will probably stop you. I doubt they fell off the turnip truck the day before the concert or event. Having worked such events before, I have seen such attempts and stopped people. My favorite was the foamy head visible against the 7-11 Slurpee lid!

Quote:

---

I do not drink alcohol. I drink only water. Let's say that I have a bottle that contains water. Let's say that the security guard thinks that my bottle COULD contain alcohol. So, Mr. Security Guard decides to force me to throw out the bottle before leaving.

---

Offer him the bottle so he can smell it. Then you will be on your way. Easy!

Quote:

---

So, what are my rights? Can I force the security guard to prove that the bottle contains alcohol? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol, will that be enough (from a legal standpoint) to force the security guard to allow me to leave? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol and I leave the venue and I am arrested for having alcohol outside the venue, can I sue for false arrest?

---

You can be obstinate and create a confrontation if you want. That's up to you. What they do if you refuse to cooperate or are arrested depends on a host of factors we do not know and can only speculate on.

But, I have never BEEN stopped carrying water out, nor have I ever stopped anyone carrying what appears to be water in a water bottle as they are leaving. So you may be raising your blood pressure over nothing at all. Relax.

I have a novel idea...how about you simply quit looking to provoke a confrontation, and simply take responsibility for yourself? If it SO damn important that you have water available for your drive home, how about if you just simply keep a container of water in your car? You know, take responsibility for your own needs and plan ahead.

And, yes, if the cop has reasonable suspicion that your container contains alcohol, he/she can legally detain you to investigate that. If the venue has a private property rule that NO beverage can be taken from the venue, then the cop can take it away from you or make you throw it away, even if it turns out to truly just be water. No, it is not an illegal detention, illegal seizure, kidnapping, etc., and you have NO legal justification for resisting. No amount of "hypothetical" twisting changes any of that. Is that clear and straight-forward enough for you?

Quote:

---

Quoting PTPD22

---

I have a novel idea...how about you simply quit looking to provoke a confrontation, and simply take responsibility for yourself? If it SO damn important that you have water available for your drive home, how about if you just simply keep a container of water in your car? You know, take responsibility for your own needs and plan ahead.

---

Many concert venues in Chicago (where I live) are in downtown, which most people access via public transportation because parking is too damn expensive.

Quote:

---

And, yes, if the cop has reasonable suspicion that your container contains alcohol, he/she can legally detain you to investigate that. If the venue has a private property rule that NO beverage can be taken from the venue, then the cop can take it away from you or make you throw it away, even if it turns out to truly just be water. No, it is not an illegal detention, illegal seizure, kidnapping, etc., and you have NO legal justification for resisting. No amount of "hypothetical" twisting changes any of that. Is that clear and straight-forward enough for you?

---

Well, are we talking about the venue's rules? Or are we talking about the law? What right does a private venue have to create a rule that prevents people from leaving with beverages that they own? And what is to stop the venue from taking, not just my beverage, but also my phone, my camera, etc.?

I think that maybe some of these venues need to be sued. And, believe me, I will sue for a bottle of water. For the past year, I've been battling a doctor's office over a $23 payment.

Wow! You either have an unlimited amount of money and time available, or, you are one of those people who get their sense of self worth by stirring the poop. For me, my time is worth more than pushing the envelope and then fighting the system in the hope that I might prevail after spending many thousands of dollars and many hours of my time. But, I suppose we all have to have our hobbies.

Quote:

---

Quoting cdwjava

---

Wow! You either have an unlimited amount of money and time available, or, you are one of those people who get their sense of self worth by stirring the poop. For me, my time is worth more than pushing the envelope and then fighting the system in the hope that I might prevail after spending many thousands of dollars and many hours of my time. But, I suppose we all have to have our hobbies.

---

Well, so far, fighting that $23 charge has cost me nothing. I've made a bunch of toll-free phone calls to various customer-service departments.

As for concert venues, perhaps they should spend less time looking for new ways to make people's lives miserable.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

perhaps they should spend less time looking for new ways to make people's lives miserable.

---

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Quote:

---

Quoting Dogmatique

---

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

---

My desire to drink water makes people miserable?

Have you actually had a venue stop you when walking out with a water bottle? If not, why is this even an issue for you?

I suspect it really doesn't happen unless it's real obvious that someone has transferred booze into the bottle, or they are contacted because they are already inebriated.

So, move along ... nothing to see here.

Quote:

---

Quoting cdwjava

---

I suspect it really doesn't happen unless it's real obvious that someone has transferred booze into the bottle, or they are contacted because they are already inebriated.

---

Have you read the first post in the following thread?

http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198635

The liquid was clear and was obviously water. But the officer still instigated a confrontation.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

So, what are my rights? Can I force the security guard to prove that the bottle contains alcohol? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol, will that be enough (from a legal standpoint) to force the security guard to allow me to leave? If I open the bottle and there is no smell of alcohol and I leave the venue and I am arrested for having alcohol outside the venue, can I sue for false arrest?

---

If the security guard is a law enforcement officer and if the law in the locality where this encounter is taking place makes it illegal to carry alcohol in an open container in public, then the law on this is no different than if the item were any other illegal item. The officer would need to have reasonable suspicion to stop you and investigate. The officer would need probable cause to believe that the substance you had was illegal (i.e. alcohol in an open container) in order to seize it and to cite/arrest you for violating the statute or ordinance. You cannot “force” the officer to do anything regarding what investigation you think ought to be done. If you obstruct or interfere with the officer you may end up subject to arrest and prosecution for that, even if you don’t have alcohol in that container. If the officer gets it wrong and lacked the legal basis for taking the suspected alcohol, your remedy is to sue the city/county later for your damages, just as with any other situation involving wrongful seizure or arrest. What you don’t do is fight about it with the officer and resist what he or she is doing at the time of the encounter. If what you had was water and that is what was seized, it’s pointless to sue for it since water at the tap is free and thus you suffered no damages from it. So, at best there what you get is $1 in token damages.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

Have you read the first post in the following thread?

http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198635

The liquid was clear and was obviously water. But the officer still instigated a confrontation.

---

That was HIS post, and we have no way to know what the OP did to draw the attention towards him. Not to mention that he had a cup of water (perhaps in the same cups that they put alcohol in), not a bottle of water as you have been hypothesizing. Since the OP there did not seem to come back to post anything further, we don't know.

In THIS thread, it's all hypothetical. Not to mention in the linked thread, it did not happen to you, yet you seem on fire to try and fight something that is almost certainly NOT going to happen to you.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

Many concert venues in Chicago (where I live) are in downtown, which most people access via public transportation because parking is too damn expensive.

---

Just another excuse. My reply still stands. If having water is so essential to you, take responsibility for yourself and plan ahead. If you put your mind to it, I’m sure you can come up with a solution. And, before you start with “well, why does the concert venue have to make it so hard for people, yadda yadda,” the venue is a private business and can make their own rules (within legal boundaries) – just like you can in your own house. Your desire for a sippy-cup on your way home is not their problem, it is yours. There are things called state liquor laws that regulate requirements for alcohol serving establishments. Forbidding the removal of alcoholic beverages from the premises is one of those requirements. If the venue has a rule that forbids the removal of ANY beverage from the premises, it is likely for a valid reason – like maybe they or other venues have had a problem with people trying to circumvent that law before.

As far as your inane question about them “stealing” your cell phone, etc. – seriously??? What stops YOU from stealing the cell phone of a visitor to your home, should you have a mind to? The answer to both your question and mine are the same. Try to keep a little realistic perspective, huh?

Quote:

---

Quoting Taxing Matters

---

If what you had was water and that is what was seized, it’s pointless to sue for it since water at the tap is free and thus you suffered no damages from it. So, at best there what you get is $1 in token damages.

---

Only $1? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Concerts in downtown Chicago let out pretty late, after all stores are closed. If I can not buy more water, and if I board a train home, and if the train gets delayed on the tracks for an extended amount of time (as has happened), then that means that I can get stuck without water for a long time. If I experience health issues due to being without water, that lawsuit will definitely be for much more than $1.

I know that cops are usually not the most forward-thinking people. So, they probably don't realize that the above scenario can occur. But I do.

Not "forward thinking?" :rolleyes:

Nah, they just tend to live in the REAL world where things REALLY happen. We can hypothesize and make up "facts" all day long, but none of them have happened. So ...

Quote:

---

Quoting cdwjava

---

Not "forward thinking?" :rolleyes:

Nah, they just tend to live in the REAL world where things REALLY happen. We can hypothesize and make up "facts" all day long, but none of them have happened. So ...

---

Yes, Chicago trains have gotten stuck for extended periods of time.

Quote:

---

Quoting TechWorker

---

Only $1? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Concerts in downtown Chicago let out pretty late, after all stores are closed. If I can not buy more water, and if I board a train home, and if the train gets delayed on the tracks for an extended amount of time (as has happened), then that means that I can get stuck without water for a long time. If I experience health issues due to being without water, that lawsuit will definitely be for much more than $1.

I know that cops are usually not the most forward-thinking people. So, they probably don't realize that the above scenario can occur. But I do.

---

But the problem with that is that a lawsuit will not necessarily compensate you for that. Generally speaking, you only get compensated for the harm that is reasonably foreseeable from the wrongful act. You can spin out all kinds of very unlikely things that might happen, but those more extreme circumstances don’t get you compensation. And let’s be clear, not having some water for a few hours is rarely going to cause most people any serious trouble. Humans can survive 2-3 days without water.

Further, I can almost guarantee there was water avaialble on the site in case you became suddenly dehydrated.

Again, as TM points out...you don't get any compensation for what "mighta, coulda" happened.

Guys do not feed the troll. This is all he is trying to do and all he ever does.