Claiming That Somebody Was Suicidal as a Defense to Battery or Unlawful Restraint

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Quoting cdwjava

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Wear us down until we agree that the law is a silly wanker and agitate for the right of his friend to take matters into his own hand and do with his woman what he wishes? ;)

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I'll leave the matter alone. In lighter terms, I think cdwjava basically nailed it. I guess my queries about the legal case ended up morphing into a debate, and this is clearly the wrong forum section for that. I'm not trying to irritate or antagonize.

To clarify, however. I don't think my friend should be free to do whatever with his woman. I think him being charged with severe abuse, in a situation where someone was abusing themselves, and he was making legitimate efforts to stop that abuse... is completely screwed up on a moral level. Call me naive, but I'm just now learning that the law doesn't look at situations on a holistic level, nor is it necessarily moral.

I think this case stinks, and truthfully I don't understand why it is even being prosecuted. The girl doesn't even want prosecution, so the state took over. The case seems more academic than anything.

Hmmm. I'm going to combine a couple of other threads that are all connected here.

The depth of involvement you have with you're "friends" legal affairs is quite staggering. Based on threads in this forum you're buddy is also embroiled in possession of Adderall and with manufacturing meth, to say nothing of your own apparent legal issues, indicates that you have questionalbe judgement. Trials anre base in investigations and evidence. Warrants, usually, are based on more than statements of a jilted suicidal girlfriend unless she can provide more specific information than "my boyfriend make meth".

You change the information routinely routinely and think that even though you have the police report that you know all of the facts surround the case. The police report covers only the incident, not the investigation and, by extension, the probable cause that got the warrant on the meth charges, in spite of teh connection between these charges.

Honestly, you sound like my permanently ill informed teenagers who work as hard as you to convince me that what their friends tell me is fact in spite of my actual knowledge based upon primary sources, education and training.

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Quoting Mark47n

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Hmmm. I'm going to combine a couple of other threads that are all connected here.

The depth of involvement you have with you're "friends" legal affairs is quite staggering. Based on threads in this forum you're buddy is also embroiled in possession of Adderall and with manufacturing meth, to say nothing of your own apparent legal issues, indicates that you have questionalbe judgement.

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With respect what's your point? My buddy and I are both med school students, these sorts of situations could befall anyone. Especially the kidnapping case, which by the way still has not been proven in court.

As for the the warrants, she told them he used Adderal and made meth. They searched his lab and found substances that tested positive for meth but showed negative by subsequent GCMS testing. The lab didn't need a warrant to enter because it was university property.

Honestly, the whole meth lab case is a headache that's gonna pan out for him. They don't have any factual evidebce of manufactiring. All they have is a lab where he could have made drugs if he wanted, he worked late lab hours when he wasn't supposed to do so without permission, someone saw him cutting up some metal associated with making meth... But NOONE thought it was concerning enough to report at the time (complete lie), and allegations by his ex that he was making and using the drugs that he made. He's going to get off because every other test and Piece of evidence failed and some even proved him innocent. The meth allegations aren't an issue here.

The story isn't being changed. Details are just being added where they were needed. And retreading the police report helped me provide clarification where needed.

Anyways, would hate to sound sophomorish like your teenage kids who just donf get it. I don't know what you do for a living, but it sounds like you got your crap put together.

I get it, you think the kid is guilty as sin. Regardless of any counter vailing evidence that I have provide or could ever provide. That's how society is regarding domestic cases. That's why you got to prove your innocence in the US legal system.

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Quoting Question4law

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I was walking down the road once and a crazy man came walking by me with what looked like a rifle by his side. Several people pulled over to call the police. Two marked vehicles approached from behind while three unmarked black vehicles drove up onto the sidewalk to cut him off from the front and sides. I don't know if the gun was real or not, but the man was ultimately arrested.

This is a situation where I think people felt an IMMENENT enough of a threat to call police and get them involved. Police would not have covertly approached the man and remove his weapon if they didn't feel the same way.

This situation is really no different than the one with the suicidal girl. The problem is that police are the only ones who get to decide arbitrarily if a threat is IMMENENT. Any one else has to wait around and see what happens.

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Completely different scenarios actually (if they are real that is).

What's the difference? One involves a woman wielding a weapon in a public place, the other involves a man. Both are deranged. Don't see the diff unless it's gender.

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Quoting Question4law

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What's the difference? One involves a woman wielding a weapon in a public place, the other involves a man. Both are deranged. Don't see the diff unless it's gender.

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Except she did not wield a knife in a public place as she got pulled back inside or the knife did.

You have already called this a hypothetical. So is it hypothetical or real? Also you need to just let your "friend" get a lawyer and he only talks to his lawyer. You have changed your story. You apparently have issues on other threads. Who cares your med school students? Not for long if he's accused of making meth at the school lab. Also no these sort of situations would not befall "anyone." You have been given answers and you need to let a lawyer deal with your friend and you deal with your own life. What does it matter to you if he gets found guilty or not?

All scenarios described here are real. All facts added were real.

I think the kidnapping case could happen to anyone, because I think most guys would intervene an out of control girkfriend themselves before calling police.

Thank you for your answers. I care if he's found guilty because he's my friend he's worked hard to get where he is in life, and I don't want to see him lose his career or freedom for something I'm convinced he didn't do, at least in the severity he's being charged.

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Quoting Question4law

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All scenarios described here are real. All facts added were real.

I think the kidnapping case could happen to anyone, because I think most guys would intervene an out of control girkfriend themselves before calling police.

Thank you for your answers. I care if he's found guilty because he's my friend he's worked hard to get where he is in life, and I don't want to see him lose his career or freedom for something I'm convinced he didn't do, at least in the severity he's being charged.

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This is the first time I have heard a story like this. I think in this day and age most people of any gender are going to call 911 if someone is going to try to kill themselves. If my ex had ever attempted to kill himself I would most definitely have called the police. If I had ever attempted, I think he would have called 911.

Do not call something hypothetical if it isn't then. You said it in one of your posts on here.

Again you can be on his side all you want but you were not there. You do not know what ACTUALLY happened.

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Quoting Question4law

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All scenarios described here are real. All facts added were real.

I think the kidnapping case could happen to anyone, because I think most guys would intervene an out of control girkfriend themselves before calling police.

Thank you for your answers. I care if he's found guilty because he's my friend he's worked hard to get where he is in life, and I don't want to see him lose his career or freedom for something I'm convinced he didn't do, at least in the severity he's being charged.

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And once again, you have no idea what actually happened, yet you insist on making this forum your personal glue factory. Why is that?

This is a load of bollocks.

This is the last I have say.

1) This wouldn't happen to anyone. It requires an act of force on someones part.
2) The term wielding indicates threatening someone with said knife, not simply holding it. What you've described is not wielding or threatening, simply possessing.
3) You say that you're not denigrating women but you are. You have, in several posts, said, in a nutshell, that she was a hysterical woman that needed to be controlled by her boyfriend.
4) In your last poost you state someting along the lines that any boyfriend would react in the manner that you describe. That is not true and is not a supportable statement. The way your "friend" acted indicates a need to contol others as if he knows better. Interestingly a common point of view among doctors, surgeons especially.
5) If your "friend" was illegally in possession of adderall that was not his then it can affect his professional future.

I'm going to make a value judgement. You're an idiot and if you're truly in med scchool and if you become a doctor I hope you are far away from me if I'm in need of medical care. You equivocate, prevaricate and act in a matter that only takes your personl views into account, thereby disccountinng evidence.

As my grandmother says"the world needs ditch diggers, too." I hope you have a good shovel.

C'mon guys. I think it's time to let this one go.

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Quoting Question4law

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I think the kidnapping case could happen to anyone, because I think most guys would intervene an out of control girkfriend themselves before calling police.

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I don’t share your view on that. I think most guys (and gals) would call the police, not try to wrestle with someone holding a “giant knife.” I certainly would not have done what he did, which is pull her back into the apartment and get into a fight with her over the knife. While walking out of the apartment she was not a threat to anyone. I keep coming back to that because that is the one part of this that we really know anything about and that is most clearly where your friend screwed up.

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Quoting Question4law

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I care if he's found guilty because he's my friend he's worked hard to get where he is in life, and I don't want to see him lose his career or freedom for something I'm convinced he didn't do, at least in the severity he's being charged.

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If the situation was what you say was (and since you weren’t there you’re having to rely on your friend for that) then the kidnapping charge is over the top and something less severe would be more appropriate. But I do think your friend screwed up in how he handled this and do not share your apparent view that he did the right thing and should face no charges at all.

I have to wonder just how accurate his version of events is. The guy is also facing drug manufacturing charges, too. Yeah, I know the story he told you on that also makes that seem like the prosecutor way overcharged that, too. I also know that criminal defendants who are guilty nevertheless generally do not admit their guilt to friends and relatives. They don’t want their friends and relatives to think badly of them. So they lie and minimize what they did to make them look better. I don’t know if that is the case with your friend, but you might consider that as at least a possibility here. As these cases play out, you might find there was more going on than he let on.

Maybe it's the first time you've heard of it because it's not something that would normally be prosecuted. Do you work in a field where you would see these sorts of cases?

I know it's not an excuse but I'm speculating that this sort of thing had happened so many times with her, he just got used to taking matters into his own hands. He told me this situation had happened a few times before.

Nothing here is hypothetical, some volunteers decided it was so I used the term to communicate with them.

I wasn't there. I hope that if the story he tells me is true, that he is not convicted of a violent offense if he did not intend to commit a violent offense. That would be very damaging to someone to be accused and convicted of being a wife batter when he was trying to save her. I know people are gonna blow up on the idea he was trying to play hero and save her, but given the state of her wounds I wouldn't have a hard time seeing him as having done that.

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Quoting Mark47n

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This is a load of bollocks.

This is the last I have say.

1) This wouldn't happen to anyone. It requires an act of force on someones part.
2) The term wielding indicates threatening someone with said knife, not simply holding it. What you've described is not wielding or threatening, simply possessing.
3) You say that you're not denigrating women but you are. You have, in several posts, said, in a nutshell, that she was a hysterical woman that needed to be controlled by her boyfriend.
4) In your last poost you state someting along the lines that any boyfriend would react in the manner that you describe. That is not true and is not a supportable statement. The way your "friend" acted indicates a need to contol others as if he knows better. Interestingly a common point of view among doctors, surgeons especially.
5) If your "friend" was illegally in possession of adderall that was not his then it can affect his professional future.

I'm going to make a value judgement. You're an idiot and if you're truly in med scchool and if you become a doctor I hope you are far away from me if I'm in need of medical care. You equivocate, prevaricate and act in a matter that only takes your personl views into account, thereby disccountinng evidence.

As my grandmother says"the world needs ditch diggers, too." I hope you have a good shovel.

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It's denigrating women to label a single woman as being crazy? What sane person attempts suicide the way she did, then falsely accuses the guy who tried to keep her from doing that of running a meth lab at their workplace. Also, I know the girl and she's nuts.

This individual, woman or not, WAS out of control. If you think committing suicide is not an indication of that, then you are crazy. If it's some sort of mysogynistic exercise of power to 'play' hero and save the dame from herself, in a case where a persons life really was at stake, and there's hard proof of that, then so be it. It sucks he had to hurt the feminists feelings that actual stereotypes of male domination were reinforced in this situation. SOMEONES life may have been effing saved! That's the truth.

Wielding also applies to holding a knife and threatening it towards yourself. As I said before this woman had turned a knife on him in the past in another similar situation. So he had THAT on the back of his mind too.

People are making this a male/female feminist issue when it's not. This could have happened between ANY gender, any age. It could happen in the classroom with a child, it could happen in the ER with a patient, it could happen in a mental facility with a male patient.

I'll take your views into consideration when you stop constantly nay saying mine because you are so closed minded about domestic violence issues.

I'm not an idiot dude.

Prevaricate? The very length of this post alone indicates that's the last thing I do. If you want straight up answers to your questions, I'll give them to you. You tell me to be open minded. When was the last time any alleged victim or prosecutor was open minded? Do you think a prosecutor would ever argue anything mitigative or in support of the accused in his own efforts? Would those who support the victim do that? Hell no. So why should I be any more supportive of the "alleged" victim? I think this girl conned the guy.

I think the suicide attempt was planned and I think it was fake. She was heard yelling "get off me, stop hurting me" as he was trying to take the knives away from her AFTER she had already slashed her wrists. She tried to leave the apartment with a knife because she KNEW he'd come after her, from past their experience. She intentionally made a scene to get someone else to call the police. She then told police he was manufacturing meth, something COMPLETELY unrelated to her and the situation at hand. True or not.

This girl is a bitch, she's crazy, and shes vindictive. She set my friend up, and she was able to get away with the 'crazy girl' card. She started this situation, she put him in a difficult place, he reacted the wrong way to a totally ****ed up and unprecedented situation. Now he is in trouble.

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Quoting Question4law

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I think the suicide attempt was planned and I think it was fake. She was heard yelling "get off me, stop hurting me" as he was trying to take the knives away from her AFTER she had already slashed her wrists. She tried to leave the apartment with a knife because she KNEW he'd come after her, from past their experience. She intentionally made a scene to get someone else to call the police. She then told police he was manufacturing meth, something COMPLETELY unrelated to her and the situation at hand. True or not.

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You can't have it both ways. Either she was crazy, out-of-control and suicidal or she was a cold, calculating, sane woman who set him up. I think it’s rather unlikely to have been the latter. You are supposing that she cut herself and threatened suicide, for which she’d potentially end up getting involuntarily committed for mental treatment and the stigma that goes with it, to set him up for what? Just for someone to call the police? That makes no sense. Hell, she could have simply reported the alleged meth lab to the police (or got a friend to do it) and avoid the drama, avoid hurting herself, and avoid the possible mental commitment. Had she just wanted to have someone call the police, all she’d have needed to do was manufacture a domestic dispute and claim he hit her or threatened her. Would have accomplished the same thing she was looking for with much less risk to herself. You support your friend and so buy his story without question and jump to the worst conclusion about her (with not apparent evidence to support it) to back him up. I can understand wanting to back up your friend. But being blind to the possibility that maybe he did do the wrong thing (even with the right intentions) and that perhaps the situation was not quite what he says it was does neither your nor him any good.

Attention Moderators:

While, as usual, I applaud and am in awe of Tax's patience, can we give him a break and close this thread down? It is no longer serving any relevant purpose.

An individual with psychopathy, borderline petsonality disorder, or bipolar disorder can have it both ways.

Your points are valid, but an impressionable, mentally ill individual, who had just attempted suicide is capable of being coerced or even figmenting new allegations against the accused in the presence of a safe house domestic violence volunteer and/or a detective. These people EXTRACT these sorts of confessions out of suspected domestic abusers. They try to leverage the full hand of the law against the accused so that they'll never do it again, and they'll think twice about retaliation.

This guy is NOT going to get convicted of manufactiring. There's no factual evidence. The problem is there is no accountability for the accusation either. False or not.