Pacing Ticket on a Freeway, VC 22350

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California.

About a week ago, I got a speeding ticket for going 15mph over the 55 mph speed limit on a freeway. The method the officer is used pacing (driving next to me in other lane). I have a lot of questions to ask since I can't really afford an insurance increase in premiums nor would I like to pay the hefty fine.

1) How much time do I have to send a TBWD? The ticket only indicates the appearance date for court. (Did not received courtesy notice yet.)

2) Can I request a engineering/traffic survey using VC40803(b) despite this being a pacing case?

3) The traffic conditions were very light and smooth so can I argue about VC22350?

4) There are 2 parts to the freeway. One part of the freeway has a 55 mph speed limit for about 10 miles and then 65 mph for the rest. I believe the 55mph is urban area. I think the whole freeway should be 65mph because I tried driving 55 mph throughout that 10 miles, and it is very slow with many cars would cutting me off. Can i use this as an argument?

5) What other tips do you guys have regarding this? This is my very first speeding ticket, so I am kind of nervous.

Thank you. Appreciate the help.

You must file for the TBD before the appearance date on the ticket. You may or may not get a courtesy notice; it is after all only a courtesy.
The speed trap rule only applies to electronic speed detection which the courts have held that pacing (despite the electronic nature of most speedometers these days) do not qualify.
If you were cited for 22350, you can try rebutting the supposition that the exceeding the prima facie limit was safe given the conditions. You'll probably still lose, but you can try. Going faster than the statutory MAXIMUM speed is going to be hard to sell as safe. If you were cited for 22349, this is not rebuttable.
The fact that others are driving faster doesn't mean squat.

No reason to be nervous, just expect that you're going to lose as you have no real defense.

How do people usually fight this? I seen a lot of threads saying always use TBWD to try to fight tickets even if guilty.

Looking at VC 22350, it seems the only argument a cop can make is that I was driving too fast making it unsafe for other people. I been driving on US-101 to work for over a year. The morning traffic is very light. 10 lanes total with 5 lanes per side.

I really don't think driving 65-70 in the carpool lane early morning (7am) is an endangerment to all other drivers. I recorded a video of me driving the speed limit of 55 mph on the slowest lane (most right lane) and it seem to me that could cause more traffic accidents than driving to the flow of traffic. Driving at 55 mph speed limit resulted in me getting cut off by trucks, and other cars and being tailgated by tons of people because i was bottlenecking traffic. Imagine going 55mph in the carpool lane driving that speed and high speed cars trying to cut me off after being tailgated.

Would this argument actually work? I dont really have much to argue aside from the speed safety issue which the code states.

Thanks for the help.

I think you have misunderstood how things work in this particular situation.

Normally, the maximum speed limit on a California freeway in most areas is 65 MPH. If, through a traffic engineering survey, the state determines 65 MPH to be an unsafe speed over a particular stretch of freeway, it may lower that speed to whatever the traffic survey deems to be reasonable and proper.

You can question the officer until the cows come home about weather, traffic, road conditions, etc., and none of what he says will matter, because you are not fighting his opinion on what is safe, you are fighting the conclusions and findings of the traffic engineering survey as to what is safe. If you ask the officer, he will tell you he lacks the expertise and training to discuss the survey and you will have to take things up with the author.

Next, you admit to driving 70 MPH, which is 5 MPH in excess of the state's maximum speed law for most freeways. Right off the bat the judge is not going to have any sympathy for you. But even if you were only doing 65 MPH, in order to challenge the traffic engineering survey, you will need to produce your own witness who has sufficient expertise and training in traffic engineering to review the state's study, then do his own study and if he disagrees with the state's findings, testify in court on your behalf. I guessing a traffic engineer might charge you between $35,000 and $50,000 to do that. (A traffic engineering study to confirm or deny the state's study is time consuming, particularly when it comes to drafting the report.)

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/en...eed-limits.pdf

I know it's the principle of the thing and money is not important, so grab the yellow pages and look for a traffic engineer, or better yet, call CalTrans and see if one of their retired engineers might do it for you more cheaply as a retirement job.

Of course, you also have to consider the possibility that CalTrans doesn't go around arbitrarily lowering the speed limit from 65 MPH to 55 MPH just for grins and giggles. Did you also consider the possibility that you are guilty and should just pay the fine, consider it a lesson learned and move on with life? (Reality - what a strange concept.)

I did not receive a ticket for violation 22349. I am not sure why you keep mentioning the traffic survey and the 65 speed limit.

All I am saying before was that I feel the speed limit should be increased to 65 mph for the whole freeway itself. This is a suggestion. At peak hours, going 55mph is very reasonable due to traffic. But early mornings and late nights when traffic is not heavy at all, going 55 mph IS VERY unreasonable and will result in being tailgated and raged at. I have tested this myself after getting the ticket.

I do understand that you are trying to help me, but from the look of the post, it just seems like you want me to pay my fine, stop whining and move on. I have already thought of maybe pleading guilty and hope for a fine reduction, however, as I have stated from my first post, money is an issue. Which as a result, I created a post to seek other options. I do not deny the fact that I wasn't going 70-65 mph. I clearly stated that, however, I do VERY STRONGLY deny the fact that my speed at that current time and driving conditions are unsafe. The unsafe part is debatable, which is why I have taken a video of me driving 55 mph at early hours where traffic is not heavy at all and the traffic flow is DEFINITELY not 55mph or anything lower (not sure if this is debatable in court).

I am not trying to create drama nor do I want to start anything nor do I want to sound like an asshole. I am just looking for help on this situation if possible. Thank you.

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Quoting xxSid

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I do not deny the fact that I wasn't going 70-65 mph. I clearly stated that, however, I do VERY STRONGLY deny the fact that my speed at that current time and driving conditions are unsafe.

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I was trying to explain the how and the why of the law so you would have a better understanding of your situation but I seem to have failed. Not a problem. Let's try again.

In some instances, the law requires that speed limits at certain locations be established by traffic engineering studies. Because you were on a freeway where the speed limit is normally 65 MPH but has been lowered to 55 MPH, that is the case in your matter.

These studies are carried out by engineers, They are very complex and time consuming, and are based on a long list of factors. In my last post I gave you a link to the manual that describes what goes into a traffic engineering study. It is not for the faint of heart. If you get a copy of the traffic engineering study for the area involving your citation, it will tell you how CalTrans determined that driving over 55 MPH on that particular stretch has been deemed to be unsafe. That decision was not based on traffic, roadway conditions and visibility alone, but (again) a long list of factors found in the manual I referred you to.

So, the purposes of CVC 22350, whether going over 55 MPH is unsafe has been determined by a traffic engineering survey. The fact that you believe the speed limit should be higher is irrelevant to the court, because after considerable study, traffic engineers have determined otherwise and the court will take the word of experts over that of a lay person who has no expertise in traffic management.

For you to convince the court that it is safe to exceed 55 MPH over that stretch of road, you need to hire your own traffic engineer to conduct a current traffic
engineering study and independently determine two things. First, he must determine that a higher speed is now justified. Second, because you were going 70 MPH, he must determine that 70 MPH was justified over that stretch of road.

Both of those things are almost impossible to do. Engineering is a reasonably precise science. CalTrans (who did the first study) does not raise or lower speed limits without justification to support its actions. I truly doubt you will find a traffic engineer who is going to honestly testify in court, under oath, (risking perjury and the loss of his license) that Caltrans was off by 20 MPH in determining a safe speed limit as defined by California's speed setting criteria.

So do I think you are guilty? You have already admitted doing 70 MPH. CVC 22349 sets the maximum speed limit at 65 MPH unless a traffic survey justifies a 70 MPH speed limit. In this case there was a survey but it justified a 55 MPH limit. You can figure out my answer.

It's not a matter of you being innocent, its simply that you don't want to be guilty. I don't think anyone can help you. You are basically a sinking ship with no cargo to throw overboard. Your best bet is to opt for traffic school.

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Quoting L-1

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CVC 22349 sets the maximum speed limit at 65 MPH unless a traffic survey justifies a 70 MPH speed limit. In this case there was a survey but it justified a 55 MPH limit. You can figure out my answer.

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Firstly, I would like to thank you for the information.

I will go and request a ETS survey. There is a possibility that the ETS might be outdated, but my hopes aren't too high.

I would like to ask why have a VC 22350 violation code if everything is based off ETS. I mean surely they can just make a violation code for people to pass a specific speed limit or maximum speed limit. I do not get why there is a VC 22350 if I can not argue about this. The police officer could of easily written me a VC 22349 ticket and not VC 22350 ticket.

On a side note: Let's say I record 10x videos of me driving 65 mph and 10x videos of me driving 55 mph, with accordance to traffic flow of course and comparing them. WOULD this evidence mean ABSOLUTELY nothing because I have already passed the speed limit? I don't get HOW i am actually deemed a dangerous driver based off the fact that I passed the speed limit.

Let's just say I did the same for 70 mph. WOULD this mean NOTHING? HOW are they able to determine that I AM unsafe ASIDE from stating that I HAVE passed the speed limit?

Absolutely NO WAY TO CHALLENGE? If X amount of people pass me in an X amount of videos that I take on the road at speed limit, would that not mean X amount of people are breaking the law? If the X amount is a large number, does that not mean anything or does that mean I am the only person who follows the law? I know ETS is a long study and very complex, but would my proof not mean anything? THE numbers wouldn't mean anything?

The officer paced me and passed me a few times when pacing, but he wrote down a specific number and not a range. I stated a range of 65-70 mph, do this mean NOTHING? The road changes from uphill to downhill at certain areas where he paced me. Unless I am on cruise, it will pretty hard to keep a constant speed without it deviating.

Edit: Forgot I was paced and not clocked using a radar or any electronic device, probably not gonna be able to get an ETS.

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Quoting xxSid

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I would like to ask why have a VC 22350 violation code if everything is based off ETS. I mean surely they can just make a violation code for people to pass a specific speed limit or maximum speed limit. I do not get why there is a VC 22350 if I can not argue about this. The police officer could of easily written me a VC 22349 ticket and not VC 22350 ticket.

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If a valid survey supporting the posted speed limit exists, then it is prima facie evidence of unsafe speed when you exceed that posted limit. It then shifts the burden of proof to you to try and prove that the speed you were traveling was safe for the conditions that were present. However, that is probably going to be a tough sell (especially since you also exceeded the maximum speed limit), but, you can try.

Keep in mind that if you go to trial and you lose, the option of traffic school may not be there for you. Most courts will not offer traffic school after losing at trial. Sometimes they will, but most apparently do not. So, you may have to ask yourself whether the risk of added insurance rates are worth the roll of the dice.

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On a side note: Let's say I record 10x videos of me driving 65 mph and 10x videos of me driving 55 mph, with accordance to traffic flow of course and comparing them. WOULD this evidence mean ABSOLUTELY nothing because I have already passed the speed limit? I don't get HOW i am actually deemed a dangerous driver based off the fact that I passed the speed limit.

Let's just say I did the same for 70 mph. WOULD this mean NOTHING? HOW are they able to determine that I AM unsafe ASIDE from stating that I HAVE passed the speed limit?

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Because VC 22350 says you were travelling at an unsafe speed. Not to mention that would be foolish since you'd be providing evidence of additional violations.

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Absolutely NO WAY TO CHALLENGE? If X amount of people pass me in an X amount of videos that I take on the road at speed limit, would that not mean X amount of people are breaking the law? If the X amount is a large number, does that not mean anything or does that mean I am the only person who follows the law? I know ETS is a long study and very complex, but would my proof not mean anything? THE numbers wouldn't mean anything?

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It is NOT a defense to the law to say that other people are also violating the law. Other people shoplift and get away with it, that doesn't make it okay for you to do it. Same thing with speeding, running stop signs, rolling through red lights, etc. The fact that not everyone gets caught does not make it okay and lawful for you to do it.

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The officer paced me and passed me a few times when pacing, but he wrote down a specific number and not a range. I stated a range of 65-70 mph, do this mean NOTHING? The road changes from uphill to downhill at certain areas where he paced me. Unless I am on cruise, it will pretty hard to keep a constant speed without it deviating.

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And your range of 65 to 70 are ALL in excess of the posted 55 MPH limit. So, that range will only serve to incriminate you, not exonerate you.

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Edit: Forgot I was paced and not clocked using a radar or any electronic device, probably not gonna be able to get an ETS.

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You can ask for the survey as it is public record. That is what will support the posted speed limit.

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Quoting xxSid

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I will go and request a ETS survey. There is a possibility that the ETS might be outdated, but my hopes aren't too high.

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It very well could be. However, there are rules that allow for it to be extended for up to 7 or 10 years (I don't remember which, am headed out to dinner in a few minutes and don't have time to look it up.)

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Quoting xxSid

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I would like to ask why have a VC 22350 violation code if everything is based off ETS. I mean surely they can just make a violation code for people to pass a specific speed limit or maximum speed limit. I do not get why there is a VC 22350 if I can not argue about this.

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VC 22350 has two purposes. It allows CalTrans and local authorities to raise or lower a speed limit that is normally set by law, if a variety of permanent conditions justify it. It also allows an officer to write a driver who is driving at or below the posted speed limit if doing so is temporarily unsafe because of weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of the highway, or because some other circumstance causes them to endangers the safety of
persons or property.

Contrary to common belief, the courts have never recognized CVC 22350 as a justification to exceed posted speed limits.

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Quoting xxSid

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On a side note: Let's say I record 10x videos of me driving 65 mph and 10x videos of me driving 55 mph, with accordance to traffic flow of course and comparing them. WOULD this evidence mean ABSOLUTELY nothing because I have already passed the speed limit? I don't get HOW i am actually deemed a dangerous driver based off the fact that I passed the speed limit.

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The 65 MPH video would only be evidence of an additional violation of the law. Again, what is unsafe is determined by all the factors in the traffic study. Without seeing it, there is no way to tell what criteria justified the speed reduction to 55.

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Quoting xxSid

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Let's just say I did the same for 70 mph. WOULD this mean NOTHING? HOW are they able to determine that I AM unsafe ASIDE from stating that I HAVE passed the speed limit?

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See my above answer regarding 65 MPH.

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Quoting xxSid

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Absolutely NO WAY TO CHALLENGE?

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Again, get a contradictory traffic engineering survey.

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Quoting xxSid

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If X amount of people pass me in an X amount of videos that I take on the road at speed limit, would that not mean X amount of people are breaking the law?

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Absolutely.

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Quoting xxSid

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If the X amount is a large number, does that not mean anything or does that mean I am the only person who follows the law?

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Yep.

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Quoting xxSid

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THE numbers wouldn't mean anything?

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It means there's not enough Chippies out there to catch all the fish in the lake.

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Quoting xxSid

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The officer paced me and passed me a few times when pacing, but he wrote down a specific number and not a range. I stated a range of 65-70 mph, do this mean NOTHING? The road changes from uphill to downhill at certain areas where he paced me. Unless I am on cruise, it will pretty hard to keep a constant speed without it deviating.

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He gave you a break. You were doing 70 and he wrote you for 65. This is done for a number of reasons. First, it takes into consideration that your speedometer is not calibrated and may have only said 65. While it's your responsibility to have a calibrated speedometer, he knocked off 5 MPH in case you had a good faith belief you were only doing 65. Second, if you go into court and give a really lame excuse (as many people do), the judge will see the officer already gave you a break, think you are trying to take a second bite of the apple and could lose any sympathy he may have for you. Lastly, there is no requirement that the officer write the highest speed driven or a speed range. Between the time you were doing 70 and the time your car came to a halt it passed the 65 MPH mark, so using that speed (or any speed between 56 and 70) was appropriate.

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Quoting xxSid

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The road changes from uphill to downhill at certain areas where he paced me. Unless I am on cruise, it will pretty hard to keep a constant speed without it deviating.

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Don't count on cruise as a defense. Cruise does not maintain your set speed going uphill, it allows you to exceed your set speed going down hill, and again, most vehicle's speedometers are not calibrated, so you may set it for 65 but (depending on calibration) wind up going 59 or 72 without knowing it. I go by the speedometer in my GPS. While it too, is not calibrated, I suspect it is a lot more accurate than my speedometer.

Time to go. It's Taco Friday!

Thanks for the information.

He actually wrote me down for 70.

I have a few questions I want to ask, if anyone could answer these too, that would be great.

1) If I am able to get an ETS, and see that it is outdated (7 years correct?), Will that help my case at all? Who would I ask to get a ETS report?

2) There is a court website to pay traffics, how long does it usually take to show my citation? Half my ticket is hard to read, so I am hoping to get more information through the website since courtesy notice may or may not be mailed to me.

3) Typical fine amount for CV22350?

4) If I drive at 55 mph speed limit in the carpool lane and tons of people cut me off (too slow?), would I get a ticket for unsafe driving because I am impeding traffic?

Thanks for the help.