My question involves criminal law for the state of: Florida and Kentucky
Lived and worked in Ky.
Flew to Fla, rented car for one day, the next day I called and extended car rental to a week to drive home to Kentucky for a one way drop off. They gave my friend the keys, let her pick out the car, and let her drive out of the lot after checking our paperwork on video.
Initially had no other authorized drivers. Added one the next day on phone, but was later told this was invalid as was not in writing. Made payment.
Kept car the week, drove home second day. My friend, left to turn the car in at the end of the rental period. This was person I mentioned above. She did not. She was supposed to be going away with boyfriend for a few days on way to turn car in. Two days later, I am advised she had not. It took me another day to get her to respond to me. She stated the car was left with the keys in it, and must of been stolen. She said she had been hospitalized and was unable to turn it in due to illness. She said she almost died.
She sent others to look for it.
I was notified she had not turned it in, by 2 letters, addressed to my residence in Ky, advising it be turned in to the nearest office, which would of been Ky. She did not notify me of any of these events. The car company did not call me. I was notified by these letters, then contacted by an investigator. When notified, I immediately contacted the police, the sheriff, and the county attorney. I also gave a report to the airport police in Fla. They refused to file a report under Ky law, they said I had gifted her the car. They refused to let her once I made contact with her and got her side of it. They said the car company had to do it, as they were the owners. The car company refused, insisting Fla law required me to obtain it. The Ky police stated They were not bound by Fla law. I offered to pay the rental monthly until the car could be found. They refused. I reported it to my insurance, who informed them they needed them to report it and confirmed the police would not file a report. They filed a stolen car report in fla against me after they spoke to my insurance company. They stated I rented the car and disappeared. The police officer also stated I had disappeared. Both parties denied knowledge or communication with me. A sheriff came to my home and spoke with me about it. People I worked with were questioned. Nothing happened in Ky. Fla filed a warrant for my arrest with specific intent of fraud/failure to return a hired vehicle. They and their investigator spoke to me many times...
I was not notified of the warrant. I was informed that they would pursue video at the place of theft and notify me of any changes.
6 months later, I find out she has the car when I am on vacation in SC. She is driving the car. I contact the police in Ky. They said they would look into it. A week later, she is still driving the car. Others in Ky report it to the police with no arrest or intervention. I contact Fla. They do not respond. The investigator called me back. Within one hour of him calling the police in Ky, they arrested her with the car. Initially, they refused extradition. They enforced extradition after I helped them locate the car.
I was transported to Fla and face a 3rd degree felony. I spent a month in jail. I have never been in any trouble. I have witnesses and emails.
My questions are:
Do I have a civil case for suit?
What state would be proper for this to be heard in? Who has jurisdiction?
Thank you in advance for your input.
Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
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05-22-2016, 11:25 PMLizzytizzyFailure to Return a Hired Vehicle
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05-22-2016, 11:37 PMMr. KnowitallRe: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleAgainst your friend? It sounds like your friend is a world-class deadbeat. If you get a judgment, does she even have two cents to rub together that she could apply toward the amount she's ordered to pay to you?Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy
Your story is unclear. You first say that you rented a car for one day while in Florida, and then called to extend the rental to a week. You then suggest that your friend picked out the car and obtained the keys, suggesting that you weren't present. In any event, as you drove home to Kentucky, and you have not alleged that your friend committed any wrongful acts in a state other than Kentucky, it would appear from what you've told us so far that any litigation against your friend should occur in Kentucky.Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy;
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05-23-2016, 06:31 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleMy question was to be where does the car rental agency file their suit against me? This is what they did. They filed in Florida against me. They filed criminal charges against me. I feel that if any suit is to be filed, it should of been in Ky. I rented the car in Fl. It was to be turned in to Ky, the demand letter was sent there, the theft, attempts to report it, witnesses (except those who were spoken to on the phone) recovery, and everything else pertaining to the case happened in Ky. I offered to pay for the rental monthly until the car could be located. They refused. Ky police required they call them to report it stolen and authorize who could be in the car. They said neither of us could file a report as we did not own the vehicle. They said that once I allowed her to use the keys, and since the car rental agency was now insisting it was unauthorized use as I did not have this in writing, that I had gifted her the car. They said otherwise we would have to wait until the car was found, then the person found with it, could be charged with the theft of it. They would not do anything at all, until I spoke to Florida authorities once I had a report of the car and location and Florida contacted them. They would not do anything when others or myself reported it prior or after to the known location of the car.Quote:
Quoting Mr. Knowitall
I do not feel as if I did anything criminal. Arguably there may be a civil suit for rental fees. They reported no damages to the car. They refused to honor the insurance I purchased as her name was not on contract. My personal insurance did verify with them that they would cover any collision charges once the car was recovered, but without a theft report, and with the way the Ky police said it had to be reported to get one, they could not pay for theft, unless this was remedied. They reported the car stolen in Florida, and reported no one had heard from me since I rente the car. I feel Florida parties involved falsified the report in order to obtain a warrant which led to them arresting me, jailing me, extraditing me, and criminally charging me over a civil dispute, using a statute that enables bill collectors to allege whatever they like, with no penalty to the person filing the report, and this robs the individual of due process. At no time was I allowed to revoke authorization. I do not know what I could of done differently. I went to every agency I could. I was advised only the Ky police could give me a report and the police flat out refused under any circumstances to file a report of any kind at any time. I know this sounds bizarre. I am flabbergasted. I cannot believe that there was no remedy but to wait for the recovery of the car. I even had difficulty of having the car recovered. They still waiting until an authority of Florida contacted them. I have witnesses to this fact. Even under the broadest tears I feel I could of been charged with negligence, but certainly not theft. I did not move, my address and job remained the same. I paid for the rental as long as they accepted payment. I contacted all I was supposed to and stayed in contact with them. They did not extradite her. She was arrested in Ky and will stand trial in Ky. Her and the boyfriend. They could of alleged monetary damages. I feel they also were negligent. I feel that by refusing rental fees a the time of the injury, they surrendered the right to sue for them. I feel they intentionally falsified documents in order to obtain a recovery and obtain arrest, and jurisdiction over me.
Thank you so much for attempting to answer my questions. God bless you. -
05-23-2016, 06:43 AMjkRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
You rented the car in Florida. You said you were going to turn it in in Kentucky. You didn't. That makes Florida the only state with actual involvement. That was where the car was taken from after which it as never returned.
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05-23-2016, 06:48 AMflyingronRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
The car rental company doesn't file charges. They make a complaint. It is society that his harmed by your criminal behavior and the state is who prosecutes the case.
As for the civil suit venue, it can likely be filed either in Florida (where the contract was created that you breached) or in Kentucky (where you are residing).
If I'm reading your meandering rant correctly, the criminal charges arise from Florida. It does seem that there are enough aspects here to support a theft charge. Being charged with a felony pretty much mandates an attorney. You need to bring this entire soap opera to a good attorney. -
05-23-2016, 07:38 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
I appreciate your response. No one can agree where the criminal suit be filed. The only thing that occurred in Florida was the signing of the rental. No torts occurred in Florida. The witnesses are in Ky. The demand notice was sent to Ky. The notice demanded it be returned in Ky. Ky police said to have owner call them. They refused.
I understand this whole thing is a mess. You can be assured that I do not want to be in this soap opera of events as you call it. I'm faced with criminal charges. How could I have done anything differently? I had no reason to believe that my friend would not turn in the car. She had lived with me for a long time.
I am speaking with attorneys. I have to try and hire one, but I'm not even sure what state to do that in. The public defender hints it should be dismissed and filed in Ky. I guess I must sound like a bad person. I really tried to do everything I could. The minute I was made aware of the warrant, I turned myself in. They declined to extradite me. Well I know I did the right thing. I helped them get the car back. I hope to litigate this in Ky. Those are the laws I was bound by when reporting it. I do thank you and apologize for the rambling of my questions and story. I appreciate all your time and effort in giving me your opinions. -
05-23-2016, 08:12 AMadjusterjackRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
You've been charged in Florida. You hire a lawyer in Florida.
You've been sued in Florida. You hire a lawyer in Florida.
It's that simple.
The more you mess around without lawyers the worse it will be for you. -
05-23-2016, 08:14 AMbudwadRe: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleYou are a very poor judge of character to start with and just too lazy to take care of your own business. You leased the car in your name and signed the contract. That makes you responsible for it. The fact that you added your friend as a driver does not release you from your bailment to deliver the car. You didn't deliver the car, it was reported stolen, and now you are facing criminal charges.Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy
FYI, this is not a civil litigation as you keep intimating that will be dismissed or moved to a new jurisdiction. This is criminal prosecution by a state, that being FL.. -
05-23-2016, 08:39 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
A poor judge of character I might be. I had no idea that my friendship or trust would be betrayed. No prior behavior would of given rise to that suspicion.
I don't see how I was lazy. I tried. The car was stolen and not by me. A theft report would of been obtained had they only verified I had rented the car to the police since I had no paperwork. It all was in the car. They only had to tell the police I was the renter and no one else was or that they were authorized to drive the car. The police said this must be done in Ky. The police said neither of us were owners of the car. Neither of us could say who was allowed to drive it. They only had to make a phone call. They would not. The insurance company also informed them to make a report. I went to the states attorneys office in Ky. No office in Ky felt I had stolen this car.
I understand I was responsible for the car. I was deprived of the ability to return it. It was out of my control. It had been stolen. I reported it. Searched for it. Tried in every manner possible to mitigate the injury with the company. The company felt all they had to do was send those letters. The investigator for the company told me he would testify for me if he was called. I know I am facing criminal charges. I just don't understand why. There has been a motion filed to dismiss this. I can't hire anyone until I know what my course of action is. The judge reserved the motion. I have no idea how long. In the mean time, I wait. I have no clear direction. I am still figuring out how to fix this. Sir, with all due respect, laziness is not the issue IMO here. Thank you, however, for your opinion.
I refer to civil litigation because I feel when this is all said and done, I would be libel for monetary damages. I have no idea what I face from a criminal perspective. I do not think a jury would think as you do. I have proof and several witnesses that I had nothing to do with the theft of this car. They would verify that I tried in good faith. The car company wasn't being asked to report who stole the car. They only had to verify who could drive it and who had rented it, and that I had notified them I no longer knew where it was. I don't understand why this couldn't of been done. -
05-23-2016, 08:48 AMflyingronRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
You seem to think that the car company has some duty to go hunting for the car just because you lost it. Nope, it's up to you to return it or pay them the value of the car in addition to other loss of use damages. Your responsibiliy doesn't end just because you said "someone stole it."
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05-23-2016, 09:12 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
On the contrary. I offered to be responsible for it. I didn't exactly lose it. I was informed it was stolen. I attempted to report it as a theft to any and all parties. I did offer to compensate them until it was found. They declined. They said they only wanted the car. I had rented cars from them, in this fashion, for 8 years. I had cars sometimes for 6 months or more. I never had an issue prior. They got the car back. Everyone I knew was searching for that car. It was found and multiple attempts were made in Ky to notify the authorities. The car had been reported stolen in Florida. They actually said to me that if Florida wanted the car, they could come look for it, that unless they contacted them, it wasn't their problem. They refused to do anything until I convinced the investigator in Fla to call the police in Ky like I had asked from the beginning. They had the car within the hour. Had they made this phone call 6 months prior, I do not feel all of the rest of this would of happened.
How does someone report something stolen if it cannot be found, permission was revoked, and they are faced with different laws from different sites in the course of how it must be reported? So what I feel you are telling me is that I should be charged with theft? That I specifically intended a theft to happen? I could see negligence. Carelessness maybe if the authorized use was questioned. People that steal things don't generally continually involve themselves with the police to have a thing found IMO.
The only duty I asked of the car company was to verify I was the renter, who they felt was authorized to drive it, as only the could revoke this due to Ky law, and to verify I had notified them to verify these circumstances. Had one phone call been made, I feel the outcome of this case would of been different.
Again, I sincerely thank you for your opinions. I will surely find out. Even here there are conflicts. No one is addressing what to do when one has theft and cannot get the police to write any kind of a report. Even a report stating they cannot make a report... Arguably, I erred, but I do not feel I committed a felonious crime. A breach of contract. Damages to the accuser... But I never intended that this car would not be returned. -
05-23-2016, 09:18 AMjkRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
If nobody was authorized to drive the car other than yourself, why was your friend picking up the car?
but as far as you were concerned the car was not stolen from you. You gave the friend permission to drive it. In fact, I have seen somebody in a similar situation walk away from court a free person based on the argument the lessee gave them permission to drive the car and never rescinded it.
the criminal charges stem from the action in Florida. It doesn't matter if you said you were going to Kentucky California or Alaska, you picked up the car in Florida and it was never returned to the rental agency in any state.
I suppose if you want to get real argumentative the Feds could lay charges as well but since you did not dispossess the vehicle from the rental agency anywhere but Florida, florida is where your criminal charges stem from.
Your friend on the other hand can face charges in both Florida and Kentucky. The theft in Florida and possession of stolen property in Kentucky. -
05-23-2016, 09:37 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
The original reservation had her as a user. The contract I signed did not. The next day I called them to correct this. They gave her the keys, let her pick out the car. It's on video. They checked her documents before leaving. I was with her.
I gave her permission to turn it in. I did not give her consent to keep it. There are multiple texts and emails insisting that the car be returned, stating she was not allowed to drive it. She had emailed, texted, and talked about this to others. She knew she was no longer allowed to have it. She hid the car for 6 months. The whole time prior, I was under the impression once I got her story that it had been stolen.
I am not trying to be argumentative. I apologize. My conflict lies that had I been in Florida, I could of revoked her use within 3 days, and filed a theft report. Kentucky does not consider this a theft. They call it joyriding. This is the reason I could not file a theft report. No one in Ky thought I had anything to do with stealing the car. I offered to try to remedy this with the car company. I have emails and witnesses that would corroborate my version. They did falsify their complaint to obtain the warrant.
I would welcome the federal investigation. That way if procedure was not handled correctly, perhaps this could be fixed so that someone else in my situation did not face this same situation. I swear that I had nothing to do, nor intended that this car not be returned rightfully to its owner. One cannot make anyone do anything, whether it is write a report or make a phone call. It doesn't change the fact that it was stolen. I truly hope she is prosecuted by both states. That would be just. If I need to pay, then I am willing to do so. I did not commit an intentional theft. I failed to return it due to it being stolen from my agent, or myself, depending how you approach it.
I truly do thank you for your comments. -
05-23-2016, 09:40 AMqwaspolk69Re: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleThis does not make any sense. If you were with her when getting the car, why did she have to pick it up for you?Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy
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05-23-2016, 09:43 AMMr. KnowitallRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
Your lawyer in Florida may be able to convince the prosecutor that you should not be prosecuted for the charged offense. It's not clear from your earlier comments, whether a public defender has been appointed to represent you on that charge, but if you are in fact represented by a public defender's office they can pursue their theory that Florida is not the proper venue for the charge and may see how the prosecutor responds when they explain the full facts of the case.
You can certainly file a police report for "joyriding" in Kentucky. Given that the car dealership was clearly working through the police in Florida, you could also have spoken with the police in that state.
Quote:
Quoting K.R.S. Sec. 514.100. Unauthorized use of automobile or other propelled vehicle.
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05-23-2016, 09:57 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
We arrived at the airport. The original reservation was for a car that she felt was unsafe. She was on the original. The new contract did not have her on it. I called to correct this and extend the rental the next day. Their policy Is that this must be in writing. I even purchased insurance to cover her, though I was pretty sure mine would. Mine did. When I tried to use this insurance to cover the theft, they used the fact I didn't have her on the contract in writing.
She went back and said the car was unsafe that we had been given and requested another be given. She complained. They gave her a different car. I am used to driving in small towns, and she was a better driver. She went and got the car changed as I was dealing with luggage and making arrangements where to stay.
Try telling that to the police. They said according to me, she had authorized use. I gave her the keys. The agency would have to tell them she wasn't on the contract. I no longer had a copy of the agreement. The car rental agency refused to do anything but send them 2 letters. They said once consent was given, I didn't have the right to revoke it. Only the car company could. They said it had to be the owner of the car to make a theft report. They said also that with them sending those letters, I no longer had the right to drive it, or authorize who did... -
05-23-2016, 10:03 AMqwaspolk69Re: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleMaybe you should have read the second contract before you signed it. Why didn't you just fix it that day if you were at the rental place with her? So even though they told you that you had to get her added in writing you chose to ignore that?Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy
So she changed the car twice? I have no idea what is going on. -
05-23-2016, 10:03 AMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
I did speak to the police in Florida. I gave them a report. This was not put in their complaint. Their investigator gave me the number. Ni confirmed with the investigator I did so.
They had a reservation with everything taken care of prior to receiving the car. I contracted over the phone. The contract was ready when I got there. I did not realize when I signed the contract that she was not authorized. You are right that I did not read everything on it. But in all honesty, most people don't. The airport was loud. Orlando. It was extremely busy. If it was discussed I do not remember it. I had no reason to doubt this. They gave her the keys. They allowed her to change the car, drive it, leave the premises with it. Even if it was argued I didn't sign authorization, they gave it to her. They even had us go to a checkout booth to check out. When I realized the next day, I was going to drive home, and keep it for the week, I checked the contract, as it had rates on it that were different than they were quoting on the phone. I noticed the error. I asked them to fix this on the phone. They affirmed. They did not tell me it had to be in writing until I had a problem.
Yes, the PD is trying to get it dismissed. I am a medical professional. I lost everything I owned, now have an arrest record, and cannot even get a job at McDonalds. I am labeled as a fugitive from justice and having been accused of fraud, am unemployable. I am Ruined. I was never notified of any of Floridas intent until months late when I was informed the car had been found. I was given head lice while incarcerated. I don't need to go on. I assure you, I have suffered. I am still stuck in limbo. I understand I made errors in judgement, but I do not believe they were what I am charged with. I believe that I was harmed by a statute that fails to give due process by them sending two letters. The felony warrant was issued. I was arrested, shackled, transported across state lines, and jailed again. I am now facing charges in Florida for crimes committed in Ky by someone else... Yes, I am involved. If a theft report had been filed, in the manner the police requested, this would not have happened. The airport police in Florida also did not mention my report. This was made to look like I stole the car outright. The facts I have given do not support it. I am not charged with negligence, but intentional fraud. I hope this makes sense. -
05-23-2016, 11:52 AMqwaspolk69Re: Failure to Return a Hired VehicleLesson learned not to trust people in all honesty. Also if people do not read contracts before they sign them, I have little pity. I just am confused as to why she drove the car if you rented and you needed it. That is my confusion. You keep saying they gave her the keys and she was able to change the type of car but she is not the one who rented it. That should have set off red flags.Quote:
Quoting Lizzytizzy
Hindsight is 20/20 but it just seems odd she was given all this authority when she was just an additional driver. -
05-23-2016, 01:59 PMLizzytizzyRe: Failure to Return a Hired Vehicle
I understand what you are saying. We went together. Originally I made the reservation so that we could both drive. She lived with me. She often would do all the busy work as I was often working long hours. I already stated she was the better driver. In all honesty, I did not read every single word of that contract. I do not think many people do when it is as long as they are. I looked at it, tried to read what I could. I had previously verified that the terms were what they were. I called to ask how to get them corrected the next day. We were together, traveling together. If it was my husband, my sister, my whatever, she was with me. The reason that giving her the keys (them) is important I believe is that THEY authorized her to use the car whether I did or not. They are the owner. Also, it further gave me the impression that what I believed to be true in the contract was valid. I was not advised there were any problems or additional requirements. In all the years of renting a car, this was never an issue.
The shame isn't in me trusting someone whom I felt to be a friend. One is supposed to do that. I will not judge, God will. But if wrong was to be guessed, to the way I was raised in thinking, it was when she began this mission and betrayed me with no intention of ever revealing any truths or making things right.
I am gentle and quiet. She is the opposite. I rented the car, but I assumed as a driver she could drive it as much as I.
I satisfied every requirement on the front end. When the theft occurred, I attempted to report it. I went to every agency I could, spoke to the county attorney, spoke to Fla. the car rental agency was not interested in assisting me in any manner. Someone mentions that how does someone go on someone's word it is stolen. What is a stolen report, if not that...? When I look up the law, case law seems to favor this being managed in Ky. Even in Florida, I wasn't charged with car theft. The law is very specific in rental property. They must prove I had specific intent to deprive them of the vehicle. I am charged with failing to deliver it. I am the only reason they got the car back. This state requires me to have willingly done this, which why I assume, that they falsified the reports by omitting the contacts I had made and reports I had given of theft. They didn't report the car stolen in Flla, until my car insurance informed them, that they could not not cover the theft without it, and notified them of the polices need in Ky under Fla law. It is one of the few states where this is treated differently. I was bound by those laws as I was a resident of that state, it occurred in that state, and the majority of the witnesses are in that state. I called, emailed, and cooperated on every level.
Hopefully, all will work out. She was charged and is standing trial. I am stuck in Florida waiting on ruling of dismissal. How long can a judge reserve a motion? God never closes a door without opening a window. All in all, whatever your opinion my be, I thank you all. I know this can be confusing and has rambled on, but there are so many contributing factors that it makes the whole thing very complicated. The statute was created to keep people from renting property and just keeping it. In many cases people would sell or dispose of it, possibly making the payment invalid, or giving false addresses. I honestly rented a car. I thought it was returned. I thought it had been stolen or she had come to harm. Then I thought it had been stolen from her. I was very upset with her, but I offered to try to take care of it financially in the beginning while trying to figure out what to do. I do not think arresting me and doing all that was done was appropriate. If they had the right to do what was done, why lie and omit information on the police report used to get the warrant?
I realize there is a gamut of information, but it was because I did address it, tried to reconcile it, and continued to fix it over several months. As you all had many questions, so did they. The explanations make it seem more plausible, than on the surface. It is a mess. Hopefully, it might help someone else. Sometimes things get stolen and people cannot get a police report. Sometimes things differ from state to state. The argument for prosecution in Ky was because the theft occurred in Ky. I was held to the law of Ky when it was reported. The car rental agency designated Ky as the receiving agent, not them. I did not fail to return it to them. It was not ever to be returned to them. They might have an argument for money, which makes it civil, but not criminal.they sent the demand letters to Ky, the address of record. No crime was ever committed in Fl. Even if one argues breach of contract, the terms of the contract were that the receiver was to be Ky. They were the agent harmed...of the car. Monies paid were valid until the fla agency denied any additional acceptance of them. I have witnesses to validate these twisted events.