Unknowing Purchase of Stolen Motorcycle Parts

My question involves personal property located in the State of: North Carolina

So this all starts with a Craigslist ad selling a Kawasaki KX65 Parts bike. It was basically a frame, front suspension and wheel, and an engine that was COMPLETELY destroyed. Rusted out etc etc etc. Well I got there to pick it up and it turned out to be a different model (KX85 instead) but for $50...I figured the few things I needed might be OK from the bike since they are similar. I get home and run the VIN number through NICB to verify it's not stolen. It comes back as good (more on this in a bit). So I run it through a Kawasaki VIN Decoder and discover that thing basket of parts used to be a 2011 Kawasaki KX85 at some point in its life. Now it's a basket of parts all destroyed and only adds up to @ 15% of a complete bike (maybe).

I do some research and find out that the bike's value is @ $2,500 - $3,000 in excellent condition (which of course it's no where near at this point). I have a 10 year old son and a 7 year old son who are just getting into bikes. So I decide that it's worth me putting $1500 - $2000 into to resurrect this bike into a worthy race bike for when my oldest gets to that point. So I go out and spend @ $2,200 or so in parts over the next 6-12 months and upwards of a good 20-30 hours in labor rebuilding this bike for my son. It came out AMAZING and he's excited about it, but he's still too short to ride it. So it sits for a few months before I decide to try making it rideable for him.

Long story short....someone stole the bike out of my garage @ 3 weeks or so ago. It was an obviously targeted theft since NOTHING else was taken and there were plenty of high dollar items laying around that would have been easier to sell and such. I call the local sherriff and get some pictures ready for him as well as the VIN number and all that jazz. He gets there, tells me they saw some kids pushing it earlier that morning, but have not found it as of yet. He thanks me for all the info I gave him about the bike and such.

He calls me a few hours later and tells me he has some bad news for me. Apparently, this VIN was reported stolen @ 18 months prior and that this was going to get interesting for sure.

They managed to recover the bike a few miles from the house. I have given them all my receipts and such for the $2,200 in parts I used to bring this bike back to life, along with eBay auction Ids for parts I bought there etc etc etc. The previous owner wants the bike back, I want my parts back....this could get ugly.

So my question is this.....who has rights to the bike as a whole at this point? I didn't really buy a bike from this guy off CraigsList (I did give the officers everything I had on the guy I bought it from), but I did apparently buy a stolen frame. I then proceeded to build a bike around a stolen frame without realizing it was stolen. NICB VinCheck is apparently not a valid VIN check, and know I know for sure about that, but it doesn't help my current scenario. Had I known it was stolen I would have called the cops and been out $50 on a pile of rusted out crappy parts. Now? I'm out $2,200 and it sounds like the sheriff isn't even really sure what to do here. The law says he's supposed to give the bike back to the previous owner, but with all the pictures and info I provided to him...he knows I didn't buy a full bike, and 85% (or so) of the parts on this bike were paid for out of MY pocket. To the point where the bike looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor.

The previous owner is obviously wanting the bike back, and I feel bad it got stolen in the first place, but with all the stuff I bought....I could quite literally go buy a $150 non-stolen frame...and put all my stuff on there and have a non-stolen bike.

Is there any legal recourse here? I do NOT want the previous owner taking the bike back with all my parts on it and ruining all the work I put into it. It originally got stolen off their front porch, and if it gets stolen again, it turns into a whole new level of messy. Any advice at all? The sheriff is going to talk to the DA today since he has no idea what to do here either.....so it sounds like we're in a weird legal place. I'm not sure it's worth suing the previous owner if they get the bike back....but I also don't think they deserve a brand new bike courtesy of my wallet due to one piece of this thing belonging to them. At this point I'm perfectly happy to strip all my parts off it and hand them back their frame....but I know it probably won't go down like that.

Any advice is VERY welcome here. Any previous cases that are similar would be awesome as well. I'll be consulting a lawyer shortly as well...but before I get to that point I figured I would post something out here...

Thanks!!

Scott from Raleigh, NC

Legally the bike is his. Given the fact that you purchased it in good faith not knowing that it was stolen gets you out of criminal responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that the bike is stolen property. You're likely screwed.

Here are a few pictures that may help solidify the condition of before and after.

Before pictures:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...5e&oe=57DB6DC5
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...68&oe=57A3215B

After Pictures:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...2d&oe=57DE1676
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-...93433025_o.jpg

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Quoting flyingron

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Legally the bike is his. Given the fact that you purchased it in good faith not knowing that it was stolen gets you out of criminal responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that the bike is stolen property. You're likely screwed.

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Oh I do understand that, but technically it wasn't a "bike" when I bought it. The stolen frame did however become the "base" for me building this bike. Which is where the grey area kind of kicks in. Even the police aren't 100% sure what to do here.

There's no GRAY area. The VIN on the frame is controlling. While you've added other essential parts as far as the police are concerned, the bike belongs to the other guy. You can argue perhaps he was unjustly enriched by the enhancement of the parts. I assume that since this was a dirt bike it wasn't insured by either of you so you don't have that issue.

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Oh I do understand that, but technically it wasn't a "bike" when I bought it.

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Doesn't matter.

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Even the police aren't 100% sure what to do here.

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I suspect they'll figure it out sooner or later or just keep the bike "in evidence" and nobody will get it without a court order.

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Quoting flyingron

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There's no GRAY area. The VIN on the frame is controlling. While you've added other essential parts as far as the police are concerned, the bike belongs to the other guy. You can argue perhaps he was unjustly enriched by the enhancement of the parts. I assume that since this was a dirt bike it wasn't insured by either of you so you don't have that issue.

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Yeah I suppose you're right, but that just doesn't feel "right" in this case. Now if I didn't have receipts and photo documentation about what I have done to it, then I would agree with you 100%. Heck even if it was a full bike when I purchased it...I would totally side with the previous owner as well. This wasn't a few upgrades to a stolen bike, it was a build a bike from the ground up scenario.

At this point, I'm not really expecting anything to come of this, but considering the "stolen" parts only amount to $50 out of my $2,250 "investment" here...the scales are a tad tipped the wrong way. I just have a gut feeling this is going to turn into a civil matter in the end, and it probably wouldn't even be worth my time. I guess time will tell.

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Quoting MotoGod

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...the scales are a tad tipped the wrong way.

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I don't think you really understand what people have already said in this thread. Legally, the other party is owner of the bike. Unless the owner grants you permission to remove everything you've done to it, you'll probably end up having to go to civil court to get payment. And even that may be a long shot.

End of the day, that bike is going back to its owner.

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Quoting Pringle

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I don't think you really understand what people have already said in this thread. Legally, the other party is owner of the bike. Unless the owner grants you permission to remove everything you've done to it, you'll probably end up having to go to civil court to get payment. And even that may be a long shot.

End of the day, that bike is going back to its owner.

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I do understand what people have said. I'm not a complete moron. I understand that the VIN dictates ownership. I get it. I've said my peace about it. The chips will fall where they may. My comment about the scales being tipped were in reference to a $50 basket of parts causing me to be out $2,200.

The only thing I am questioning here is the definition of the word "bike" or "vehicle" in this case considering the condition it was purchased in, versus it's current condition. I realize what a VIN is and what it does. This is an oddball scenario (as every officer connected to me as mentioned as well), so I was looking for opinions/advice on this is all. If the consensus out here is "You're Screwed" then I got what I was looking for out of an internet forum. Pretty simple...

$2,200 isn't going to make or break me in the end, and I can always build another one. If we had a better way of validating stolen versus non-stolen VINs, I'd only be out $50 and the previous owner would have had his frame and busted up stuff back 18 months ago. Alas, there isn't a better way at the moment, and unfortunately guys like me buying used "stuff" with a VIN get screwed in the end even though we make a good faith effort to validate it's a legit piece of "whatever" before we buy it....or before we do much with it.

...and Pringle, if it were that cut and dry the previous owner would have had the bike back in their possession @ 2 weeks ago, which is what led me here anyway. We shall see what happens.

It's a horrible situation, one where the best solution for both parties is to just strip the parts from the frame and everyone goes their separate ways. Unfortunately, I don't think it will work out that way.

Either way, let us know when you hear back from the PD.

If the original owner made an insurance claim for the motorcycle and the insurance company paid out on the claim, there's a strong chance that the party entitled to possession of the motorcycle is actually the insurance company. Of course, it's not going to be easy for you to figure out whether an insurance claim was made or what insurance company was involved unless the title owner volunteers that information, but if you have a friendly deputy working on the case perhaps that's something they'll try to determine in relation to the investigation of what should be done with the motorcycle.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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If the original owner made an insurance claim for the motorcycle and the insurance company paid out on the claim, there's a strong chance that the party entitled to possession of the motorcycle is actually the insurance company. Of course, it's not going to be easy for you to figure out whether an insurance claim was made or what insurance company was involved unless the title owner volunteers that information, but if you have a friendly deputy working on the case perhaps that's something they'll try to determine in relation to the investigation of what should be done with the motorcycle.

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It was not insured by the previous owner (nor by me), and it's not covered under homeowners..... The deputy and detectives have been great thus far. They know the scenario here inside and out, but they still aren't sure what to do. So our detective is actually speaking to the DA today about another case and he's going to try to poke and prod to see what he can uncover.

I'll definitely report back on what happens. At this point, I'm happy to re-purchase the frame from the previous owner, or sell him the parts I added to it....I just really don't wanna see either side get 100% of the bike without some form of payment. I'm happy to compensate them for the pieces I purchased (even though I already paid for them), but I imagine they won't be happy to pay me for the parts and labor I put into it. I suppose worst case I could always bill them for my labor and try to recover some money that way, but even then....it's a long shot.

Like I said, $2,200 isn't gonna make me or break me....it's just a crappy scenario, and I do feel for the previous owner. It's not the same bike that got stolen anymore though, so my feelings only go so far for them, and not far enough for me to just hand them $2,200 without putting up a bit of a stink in the process. I feel less bad when I know it got stolen off their front porch, so they didn't even attempt to secure it.

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Quoting flyingron

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You can argue perhaps he was unjustly enriched by the enhancement of the parts.

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Unfortunately, a claim of unjust enrichment wouldn't apply here. Unjust enrichment cases in these situations are those in which the party that is being unjustly enriched knows or has the opportunity to know that the plaintiff was improving his property and stood by and did nothing to stop it. He cannot simply let the other person make the improvements and claim the benefit without compensating that person. That’s the unjust element of it — he’s taking advantage of the other by staying silent and watching the work get done. Here, the true owner had no way to know what was being done to his bike frame. He's not to blame for this.

The true owner is entitled to his frame back. Presumably the OP can strip off the stuff he added and least reduce his loss from this. Or he can perhaps make a deal to buy the frame from the true owner at a price that makes it worth doing.

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Quoting MotoGod

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Yeah I suppose you're right, but that just doesn't feel "right" in this case. Now if I didn't have receipts and photo documentation about what I have done to it, then I would agree with you 100%. Heck even if it was a full bike when I purchased it...I would totally side with the previous owner as well. This wasn't a few upgrades to a stolen bike, it was a build a bike from the ground up scenario.

At this point, I'm not really expecting anything to come of this, but considering the "stolen" parts only amount to $50 out of my $2,250 "investment" here...the scales are a tad tipped the wrong way. I just have a gut feeling this is going to turn into a civil matter in the end, and it probably wouldn't even be worth my time. I guess time will tell.

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If nothing else, the frame belongs to the other guy. There is no tipping of scales because you put more into the bike than what the alstolen frame was worth. The frame is the other guys

i think you have a few problems others have dismissed. While it isn't a huge difference, you paid $50 but you later said if you took your parts and put them on a $150 frame you would have a complete bike. I suspect you used more than just the frame but what it suggests is you did not pay market value for what you did purchase. On top of that the seller advertised a 65cc bike yet it ended up being an 85cc bike. That is suspect. Then given the engine size differences the entire bike is a different sized bike.

All of those add up to red flags that suggest you may not be considered a "bonifide purchased" but one that had enough red flags to suspect the sale was not on the up and up. That puts you at a disadvantage in anything you do here.

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Quoting Taxing Matters

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The true owner is entitled to his frame back. Presumably the OP can strip off the stuff he added and least reduce his loss from this. Or he can perhaps make a deal to buy the frame from the true owner at a price that makes it worth doing.

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op isn't going to be allowed to remove anything. It's in the hands of the cops. They aren't going to return it to the op.

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Quoting MotoGod

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It was not insured by the previous owner (nor by me), and it's not covered under homeowners..... The deputy and detectives have been great thus far. They know the scenario here inside and out, but they still aren't sure what to do. So our detective is actually speaking to the DA today about another case and he's going to try to poke and prod to see what he can uncover.

I'll definitely report back on what happens. At this point, I'm happy to re-purchase the frame from the previous owner, or sell him the parts I added to it....I just really don't wanna see either side get 100% of the bike without some form of payment. I'm happy to compensate them for the pieces I purchased (even though I already paid for them), but I imagine they won't be happy to pay me for the parts and labor I put into it. I suppose worst case I could always bill them for my labor and try to recover some money that way, but even then....it's a long shot.

Like I said, $2,200 isn't gonna make me or break me....it's just a crappy scenario, and I do feel for the previous owner. It's not the same bike that got stolen anymore though, so my feelings only go so far for them, and not far enough for me to just hand them $2,200 without putting up a bit of a stink in the process. I feel less bad when I know it got stolen off their front porch, so they didn't even attempt to secure it.

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How do you know it isn't the same bike that got stolen? Do you somehow know the condition of the bike when it was stolen? It was stolen 18 months before you purchased it. A bike can get pretty trashed in a year and a half, especially when it as being ridden by somebody that paid nothing for it.

Your argument about feeling less bad about the true owner losing the bike because it was stolen from their porch is ridiculous. I don't think you would feel that way if they stole it out of your open garage or an unlocked garage. Your garage was closed and locked, right?


and your statement of suing them for the parts and labor. The parts; maybe but labor, not a chance since it is not a loss to you.

Agreed. There were more parts than just a frame. I guess I was summarizing a bit. The guy I bought it from knew it wasn't complete, and he just wanted it gone. I needed some nuts and bolts and such for my sons bike, and trust me I've sold many "piles of parts" for way less than they were worth as well. So it didn't really seem too suspect to me. Especially when his story was his buddy owed him money and ended up giving him this bike instead. I don't think the guy I bought it from stole it either, but who knows at this point. He very well could have.

The 65 and 85 do look VERY VERY similar. So it's not a huge stretch to think that he confused them. I thought it looked a bit bigger than a 65, but only when I got home did I even confirm it was an 85 after some research and stuff. Yes oddities for sure though.

I'm definitely not arguing that the frame is his. I will HAPPILY strip off all the stuff I did to the bike and give him back what I bought. I have 0 issues with this route, but I doubt it will happen. It's a waiting game now.

My statement about it not being the same bike anymore, was referring to the condition I bought it in, versus it's current condition. They said it was a full bike when stolen, but you're right...people treat bikes VERY badly when stolen. It blew up at some point, and they stripped a TON of parts off it and did whatever with them. Sold them, build something...I have no idea.

If the bike got stolen out of my unlocked or open garage, then I'm a moron. You don't leave an easily and highly desirable item like a dirt bike outside for people to steal...just like you don't leave your TV set in your driveway and such. It's a crappy scenario for sure. I'm perfectly happy to either give him back the parts I originally bought, or purchase them from him for a fair market value....but that decision isn't up to me at the moment. :-(

You are not likely to be given the opportunity to strip the bike. You likely won't be a to touch it again. That's just not how things work. The cops do not have the authority to allow you to work on somebody else's bike.


Honestly i cannot say what the resolution is. Hopefully the guy will work with you and either allow you to purchase his bike or pay you for your parts.

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Quoting jk

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You are not likely to be given the opportunity to strip the bike. You likely won't be a to touch it again. That's just not how things work. The cops do not have the authority to alloy you to work on somebody else's bike.


Honestly i cannot say what the resolution is. Hopefully the guy will work with you and either allow you to purchase his bike or pay you for your parts.

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Yup. It's in a holding pattern right now. Unless the previous owner is awarded the ENTIRE bike, they will not be happy though. So my guess is they won't take any offers I make on their parts since it will be SIGNIFICANTLY less than the value of the bike that got stolen from them. Nor will they want to pay for all the parts and such I put into the bike because it's @ half the retail cost they probably already paid for the bike before it was stolen.

I'll post back when I hear anything for sure. It's a curious scenario. Most people I have run it by immediately say I'm screwed, but then as they think about it and get all the info....they don't know anymore. So far just about everyone has said it could go either way. lol

Still no word back, but we have started chats with a lawyer just to get some consultation on this matter. Apparently, in his 20 years of practice he has never seen this type of scenario come up either so he's going to do some research, but his initial reaction was he didn't think the police could legally give the entire bike back to the original owner due to the fact that we've got all these parts (with receipts) bolted on that are worth WAY more than what we originally purchased, and especially since what we originally purchased could not be classified as a "vehicle" at the time of purchase.

Again, all speculation right now as no ruling has been made either way. Just figured I'd update the thread with info as I got it. It does sound like the original owner is being quite belligerent with the police at this point though demanding the bike back and not listening to even the story of how it came to be the way it currently is. So we'll see. We all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease most times, but the detective on the case has expressed to us his gratitude for being patient and more importantly kind human beings. lol So he's pretty sick of the original owners at this point, but he wants to make sure this is handled in the right manner.

So just another update here. The DA has released the bike to the original owner, but in speaking with her she essentially said that if we take it to a civil suit (ie small claims court) the session will last all of 30 seconds and we should win. Sooooo off to small claims court we go I suppose ;-)

It would be interesting to hear the legal theory that the prosecutor believes will allow you to prevail in court. You don't have a contract with the owner of the motorcycle, so you have no contract-based theory of recovery, and claims of quasi-contract (e.g., "unjust enrichment") you must normally show that the person receiving the benefit either induced you to make the expenditure or consciously received something he knew did not belong to him (e.g., a contractor hired to perform work on your neighbor's house makes a mistake of address and performs work on your house, while you stand by and watch). "The recipient of a benefit voluntarily bestowed without solicitation or inducement is not liable for their value." Rhyne v. Sheppard, 224 N.C. 734, 737, 32 S.E.2d 316, 318 (1944).

My understanding of it revolves around the fact that I didn't purchase a complete bike to start with, but I did purchase a chassis upon which I built a motorcycle. I guess we shall see. I'm no lawyer, nor do I pretend to be. We've consulted a lawyer who believes the same as the DA, so we shall see what happens in the end I suppose. The DA and the detective on the case tried to do everything they could to get it released to us instead, but since they are on the criminal side of things...there is no person charged with it...and really nothing they can do at this juncture.

What is your lawyer's legal argument for why you should prevail?

When you go into court, you can't expect the judge to simply say, "Well, you say a lawyer and a prosecutor told you that this was an easy case and I should give you money? Alright -- judgment for plaintiff!". While I grant, small claims court experiences can be odd and the outcomes at times have little to do with the actual law that the court should follow, small claims courts do make an effort to apply the actual law to any given case.

I'm a bit surprised the da and detective attempted (and maybe even conspired) to commit crimes. There is no legal basis for the state to consider releasing the bike to you so those two people were attempting to do something against the law. There is absolutely no doubt the true owner has all legal rights to his bike, or whatever you argue was left of it. Depriving him of his bike would be extending the injury he already has been subjected to.

While I understand your dilemma, sometimes in life that's the breaks.

But why there is no sympathy for you is you knew from the very first day you dealt with this there were issues. You ignored them and continued on like you had a lawful claim to the bike. When you do that you can lose any right to claim any losses you incur. That may be the result in your situation.

We have not hired a lawyer for small claims court at this point, nor do we plan to. I'm going in there with the documentation of condition at the time or purchase and at the time of return...as well as receipts and going after a claim to return personal property. She can keep the original parts I purchased that belong to her. I want the rest or the money for the rest....or she can sell me her portion of the bike. Either way is fine with me.

So I plan to argue ownership of all the stuff I purchased and installed on the bike.

From the very first day? I knew of NO ISSUES. I bought part of a bike in a basket for $50 (Fair value for what it was in the sellers eyes)...ran a VIN Check on it, then proceeded to start a project. I did my due diligence (or what I thought) before even doing anything with the basket of parts. Do you really think I had a clue the frame was previously reported stolen? I'm not a moron here...I buy, fix and sell blown up bikes ALL THE TIME. This is not the first time I have repaired a bike in a basket scenario. It was probably the worst one I ever did as far as parts being missing and such, but definitely not the first...and won't be the last. Considering I generally buy COMPLETE bikes in a basket for anywhere from $250 - $400....$50 was not an eye opener for something that was barely 20% complete.

Implying that I knew anything about the validity of the purchase is just stupid on your part. Had I had ANY inclination it was stolen, I would have called the authorities immediately, surrendered the basket of parts to them and would have been out $50.

The DA and Detective weren't conspiring to do anything criminal. They were trying to find a legal basis to release the bike to me....they failed to find that legal basis, so they released it to the original owners. Neither of them, nor anyone else in the department has EVER come across a scenario like this one, so they were making sure they did everything they could here because it's painfully obvious the bike (in it's current state) has more of my personal property on it than it did when I purchased it.

If I'm out $2,300, then I'm out $2,300. It will be an expensive lesson, but there is no way in hell I'm going to let the original owner get a pass here and not fight.

Yes, you were aware of problems. A bike advertised as a 65 was in reality was an 85. How many bikes have you owned? Ever not know what each of them were? It's really hard to buy parts unless you know at least that much.


And the da and detective both knew there was no way to release the true owners property to you so if they did anything more than ask the owner of they would give it up to you, yes, they were falling across the line where legal and illegal meet.

As to the fair value being $50 to the seller: since it was a stolen bike (no idea if they knew it was or not) it isn't possible to determine if that was a true value or some thief dumping a stolen bike for $50 which was $50 more than he spent on it.


as to the cop and da never running across anything like this; you must come from an area with absolutely no crime. That is a very common scenario.


Glad you can live with the $2300 loss since that is what it may come to.

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Quoting jk

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I'm a bit surprised the da and detective attempted (and maybe even conspired) to commit crimes. There is no legal basis for the state to consider releasing the bike to you so those two people were attempting to do something against the law.

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It sounds like they understandably wanted to help the OP avoid a financial loss, but at the end of their review they determined that they were unable to offer any such assistance and had to return the motorcycle to its owner in 'repaired' condition.

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Quoting MotoGod

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We have not hired a lawyer for small claims court at this point, nor do we plan to.

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You claim that you spoke with a lawyer, and that your lawyer advised you that you had a good chance of prevailing. You should pose follow-up questions to your lawyer: "What legal theory should we present in court, that will allow us to prevail" and, if the answer is "Unjust enrichment", "How can we prove unjust enrichment when the owner of the motorcycle did not know either that we had his motorcycle or that we were performing repairs upon it?" If your lawyer proposes another theory, tell us what it is and we can help you determine the elements of that theory such that you will know what you need to prove in court.

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Quoting MotoGod

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I'm going in there with the documentation of condition at the time or purchase and at the time of return...as well as receipts and going after a claim to return personal property. She can keep the original parts I purchased that belong to her. I want the rest or the money for the rest....or she can sell me her portion of the bike. Either way is fine with me.

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We get that you want money for the parts you installed. We understand why you want money for the parts you installed. Not all of us are unsympathetic to your position. But the gulf you must nonetheless cross is how you can prove that you are legally entitled to any compensation for the parts you installed. As you have been told, and shown through case law from your state, merely having repaired somebody else's motorcycle is not of itself enough to legally entitle you to compensation.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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It sounds like they understandably wanted to help the OP avoid a financial loss, but at the end of their review they determined that they were unable to offer any such assistance and had to return the motorcycle to its owner in 'repaired' condition.

You claim that you spoke with a lawyer, and that your lawyer advised you that you had a good chance of prevailing. You should pose follow-up questions to your lawyer: "What legal theory should we present in court, that will allow us to prevail" and, if the answer is "Unjust enrichment", "How can we prove unjust enrichment when the owner of the motorcycle did not know either that we had his motorcycle or that we were performing repairs upon it?" If your lawyer proposes another theory, tell us what it is and we can help you determine the elements of that theory such that you will know what you need to prove in court.

We get that you want money for the parts you installed. We understand why you want money for the parts you installed. Not all of us are unsympathetic to your position. But the gulf you must nonetheless cross is how you can prove that you are legally entitled to any compensation for the parts you installed. As you have been told, and shown through case law from your state, merely having repaired somebody else's motorcycle is not of itself enough to legally entitle you to compensation.

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Understood and appreciated. Still working out the answer to some of those things for sure. :-)