Right to Child's Cremated Remains During Separation

Please excuse me if this is in the wrong location, I'm just not sure where to put it.

I live in Virginia and my grandchild died of SIDS and was cremated. My Son and DIL are young with an unstable living condition and an emotionally volatile relationship. About a year after my grandson passed they gave me his remains since I could provide a stable respectful place until we could "send him on". My family is Native American and they chose together to release him in the fashion and location that my family has used for generations. It takes money to get there so we can't do it yet.

Each time they fight badly and say they are getting divorced my DIL texts me demanding his ashes back. Up until now it has always blown over before I had to respond. As soon as it did, she didn't want him back anymore.

This time however looks like it may actually happen. 3 days ago I got the demands and I explained that they had given him to me to keep safe. Unless they both came to me together and said they'd changed their mind about me having him, I would not give him to either of them alone. Because neither has anymore right than the other. It blew over again and she didn't want him anymore.

I awoke to 8 texts this morning that it exploded again and she would get him back no matter what.

There's more to it, but I was already having a hard time keeping this at this length. My question is: Since they gave him to me, so I have to give him to her if my son is adamantly opposed? I would not give him to my son either if my DIL wanted him to stay. This is not being "against" my DIL, I'm just looking out for my grandson.

This is a volatile situation for me and given the information I didn't put in here, I know what the "right" thing to do is. I'm wondering about the Legal thing. Do I have to give him to her without my son's permission?

I hate to think like this, but I don't know if cremated remains are regarded as property where they gave him to me and I don't have to give him back just because she alone changed her mind.

Thank you for your time and consideration in reading this. Any advice or information is greatly appreciated

They were given to you for safekeeping - not as a gift.

But I'm going to try and reach you as a fellow grandparent. Losing a grandchild is one of the most heartbreaking and soul-destroying experiences we can ever endure. The pain is unique and truly, it really does fall into the realm of "No, you don't know how I feel - please don't tell me that you do".

Your love for your grandson is massive and unending and it shows through just a few lines you've typed to a stranger. But to his parents, the pain takes on a whole different level and they're both still actively grieving. I think the only way you're going to find peace in your own heart with this, is if you actually speak to them both in person - preferably together - and perhaps suggest that they split the ashes. You can offer your help with this if you wish, or leave it to them. Go from there. The ashes are not yours to keep, and while you may not agree with what one parent wants to do, you're not in a strong place to actually refuse to hand them over if demanded.

Your grandson's ashes are property. You were asked by the owner to return them. You should have done so. You should have returned them to your DIL. End of story.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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They were given to you for safekeeping - not as a gift.

But I'm going to try and reach you as a fellow grandparent. Losing a grandchild is one of the most heartbreaking and soul-destroying experiences we can ever endure. The pain is unique and truly, it really does fall into the realm of "No, you don't know how I feel - please don't tell me that you do".

Your love for your grandson is massive and unending and it shows through just a few lines you've typed to a stranger. But to his parents, the pain takes on a whole different level and they're both still actively grieving. I think the only way you're going to find peace in your own heart with this, is if you actually speak to them both in person - preferably together - and perhaps suggest that they split the ashes. You can offer your help with this if you wish, or leave it to them. Go from there. The ashes are not yours to keep, and while you may not agree with what one parent wants to do, you're not in a strong place to actually refuse to hand them over if demanded.

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And I agree with this. Emotion is different than legal.

Absolutely, OG. Complete agreement here.

Thank you for your responses and for understanding how emotional this is for me. I also completely understand that it's harder for them as I have lost 3 children of my own.

Please note that I did tell her that I needed to speak to them both and would do whatever they both wanted.

While she, was an owner asked for him back, my son also an owner, said no. What am I to do in this situation when there are 2 owners telling me something different?

The reason my son is so opposed is that in her anger she threatened to spill his ashes next to the railroad tracks (which I heard directly myself, not hearsay) so he doesn't trust her. That's one of the things I didn't include originally because I was trying to focus on the actual legality of it versus the emotion.

Also, I would certainly be willing to try and talk to them both about splitting them. But I know it will be a while before they will even sit down together and I don't know what legal standing she has while I try to get them settle enough to even talk. And if she gets him before then the chance of a loving amicable solution goes out the window. That's the complete basis of my concern

Unfortunately the law is on Mom's side here. If she asks, she's entitled to them.

I will say though, there is also nothing illegal about giving them back to your son and basically forcing them to behave as adults and decide for themselves.

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Quoting veyoveyo@gmail.com

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Thank you for your responses and for understanding how emotional this is for me. I also completely understand that it's harder for them as I have lost 3 children of my own.

Please note that I did tell her that I needed to speak to them both and would do whatever they both wanted.

While she, was an owner asked for him back, my son also an owner, said no. What am I to do in this situation when there are 2 owners telling me something different?

The reason my son is so opposed is that in her anger she threatened to spill his ashes next to the railroad tracks (which I heard directly myself, not hearsay) so he doesn't trust her. That's one of the things I didn't include originally because I was trying to focus on the actual legality of it versus the emotion.

Also, I would certainly be willing to try and talk to them both about splitting them. But I know it will be a while before they will even sit down together and I don't know what legal standing she has while I try to get them settle enough to even talk. And if she gets him before then the chance of a loving amicable solution goes out the window. That's the complete basis of my concern

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And I'm so very sorry for your losses. :(

Also, I thought it important to note: these are a 24 and 21 yr old with bad psychiatric issues. My husband and I moved onto the property they were renting and lived in a camper so we could be available day and night instantly if they needed help (at there request) and they did, every day and many nights. So this isn't the typical grandparent relationship

Dogmatique, that's a very good idea. I really wish they would act like adults.

A quick F/U question: would this be something she would have to take me to civil court for? Or would a Sheriff come take them from me? I only ask because if she has to go to court then I could request a mediator between her and my son and step out of the whole process. Which would also give them some time to calm down and start acting like the adults they should be.

She could feasibly turn it into a criminal matter. Civil court isn't really the correct venue and if she actually sued you personally you would not be able to force mediation between the two of them (your son wouldn't be included in a lawsuit of that nature - she'd have to sue him, too).

Thank you for your responses. Ive been thinking and I really think the answer is to take him and release him immediately, together before they split. Even if we make the 9hr roundtrip in 1 day if we cant afford hotels. Since they both profess to still want to follow through with that decision.

This also resolves the fact that his urn belongs to my family and was only on loan until he moved on. I don't know what I would do if I had to give him up, because my family can't lose the urn but I would never want to "move" him to something else.

The anniversary of his death is April 21, which would be a beautiful day to do it. This would really resolve everything. I am proposing this to them each now and I pray they can be adult about it. I don't want a fight or to hurt anybody. I only want what's best for my grandson.

Thank you again for your replies.

First, I'm so sorry for your loss and for your family's loss.

If they do not agree with your above suggestion, perhaps it would be fair to get another urn and to divide up the ashes, one urn for the mother, and one for the father, and then they can both individually do what they feel is best. I understand that you have long-standing and strong beliefs, but as you know, the send off is for the living, anyway.

I hope they will be able to come together, and give your grandson the respect he deserves.