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Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop

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  • 03-18-2016, 03:06 PM
    Chazzey01
    Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    My question involves civil rights in the State of: Alabama

    I'll start from the beggining. I was on my way home from the grocery store. Getting ready to go fishing the next day I had my boat and trailer attached to my truck. I had just pulled into my front yard when I saw headlights turn onto my street and then the blue lights came on (I lIve outside of this particular citys line). I turned me truck off and waited for the officer to approach. When he walked up he informed me that one of my headlights was out and without missing a beat I turned my lights on and asked him which one was out. He walked to the front of my truck and came back and said they were both working. Then asked for my license and proof of insurance. I gave him my license and searched but couldn't find my insurance card. He came back with a no proof of insurance ticket.

    Went to court and plead not guilty and argued that my 4th amendment rights were violated when the officer acknowledge my headlights were indeed working. Which the judge ignored and set a day for trial.

    Trial date. After the prosecuter tried to talk me out of a trial we had our trial where I made a motion to suppress based on my argument that my 4th amendment was violated. The judge denied my motion and I appealed to circuit court.

    I might add that the traffic ticket does not have the full date or time listed on it.

    Also I don't have the money to really hire an attorney but won't qualify for a court appointed one.
  • 03-18-2016, 03:32 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Read this:

    "Section 32-7A-20: EVIDENCE OF COVERAGE AT TIME OF CITATION - No person charged with violating the requirements of this chapter to maintain or display, or both, evidence of insurance shall be convicted if such person produces in court satisfactory evidence that at the time of the citation the motor vehicle was covered by a liability insurance policy in accordance with Section 32-7A-4.


    All you had to do was bring your proof of insurance to the court to get the citation dismissed.

    Lucky for you that an appeal to the Circuit Court is a trial "de novo" which means that your case is heard from the beginning as if no trial had taken place.

    Get it right this time.
  • 03-18-2016, 03:44 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    Read this:

    "Section 32-7A-20: EVIDENCE OF COVERAGE AT TIME OF CITATION - No person charged with violating the requirements of this chapter to maintain or display, or both, evidence of insurance shall be convicted if such person produces in court satisfactory evidence that at the time of the citation the motor vehicle was covered by a liability insurance policy in accordance with Section 32-7A-4.


    All you had to do was bring your proof of insurance to the court to get the citation dismissed.

    Lucky for you that an appeal to the Circuit Court is a trial "de novo" which means that your case is heard from the beginning as if no trial had taken place.

    Get it right this time.

    I had it right the first time. What that doesn't say is that yes it will be dismissed right after your extorted for $160 court costs. There's nothing right about a money Hungary judicial racket
  • 03-18-2016, 03:56 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    What did the officer say in court, that the court accepted as the basis of the traffic stop?
  • 03-18-2016, 04:03 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Nothing. The prosecuter treated me in nothing more than a condescending manner. After denying my motion to suppress he basically told me if I didn't show him proof of insurance he was ruling me guilty and I could just make an appeal. So of course I did.
  • 03-18-2016, 04:14 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    You had arrived at your destination. At that point your stop was consensual. They don't need even a suspicion that you did anything to talk to you.
  • 03-18-2016, 04:22 PM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    I had it right the first time. What that doesn't say is that yes it will be dismissed right after your extorted for $160 court costs.

    Gee, you might have said that. Thanks for wasting my time looking up the law for you.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    What did the officer say in court, that the court accepted as the basis of the traffic stop?

    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    Nothing. The prosecuter treated me in nothing more than a condescending manner. After denying my motion to suppress he basically told me if I didn't show him proof of insurance he was ruling me guilty and I could just make an appeal. So of course I did.

    The judge gave you the opportunity to show your proof of insurance and you refused to do so because you wanted to stand on your 4th amendment rights instead of paying the $160.

    Well, frankly, I think the same thing will happen to you in the trial "de novo" if you pull that 4th amendment business again.
  • 03-18-2016, 04:27 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Even though I hadn't even parked yet? And the officer fully expressed the reason he stopped me was because my headlight was out. He hit his lights while I was turning into my front yard. Half in the road and half out. I don't understand how that isn't a clear violation of my 4th amendment rights.

    So what should I do?
  • 03-18-2016, 04:42 PM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    You had arrived at your destination. At that point your stop was consensual. They don't need even a suspicion that you did anything to talk to you.

    using that premise op has no obligation to provide license or registration or insurance and refusal to provide said documents cannot be the basis for a citation.

    The fact is it was not a consensual stop if op believed they did not have the right to walk away from the cop. Since cop used his flashy lights no reasonable person would believe they had the right to walk away.
  • 03-18-2016, 05:10 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    using that premise op has no obligation to provide license or registration or insurance and refusal to provide said documents cannot be the basis for a citation.

    The fact is it was not a consensual stop if op believed they did not have the right to walk away from the cop. Since cop used his flashy lights no reasonable person would believe they had the right to walk away.

    Now we are getting somewhere. My main issue here is were my 4th amendment rights violated based on the fact the officer admitted to me that in fact the reason he stopped me was invalid because my headlights were in fact working properly? Which in return would result in my motion to suppress being made valid!
  • 03-18-2016, 05:45 PM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    If that is the only reason I tend to agree with your argument. One huge problem is a claim it is a constitutional violation does not mean a thing. You have to support your case with valid argument and supporting case law.

    If the cop made a mistake and believed a light was out, well, you won't win. That would be reasonable suspicion although it was mistaken.
  • 03-18-2016, 05:45 PM
    free9man
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    My main issue here is were my 4th amendment rights violated based on the fact the officer admitted to me that in fact the reason he stopped me was invalid because my headlights were in fact working properly?

    You said the officer stated that the lights were working, that is not an admission that the reason was invalid. What did the officer testify to in court?
  • 03-18-2016, 06:04 PM
    flyingron
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    using that premise op has no obligation to provide license or registration or insurance and refusal to provide said documents cannot be the basis for a citation.

    Why not? He was driving. It's fair game to see the documents.
  • 03-18-2016, 06:06 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    He didn't testify the judge basically said if you can't provide insurance cards your guilty and that was it. Not much of a trial if you ask me.

    It's your typical money Hungary municipal court. Where they do whatever they can to just get you to pay. And I just don't understand how an officer can falsely claim something and disguise it aseems reasonable suspicion.

    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    Why not? He was driving. It's fair game to see the documents.

    But to make an unlawful stop just to take a swing at finding something illegal isn't unconstitutional?

    Would it matter if I had a passenger that witnessed all of this?
  • 03-18-2016, 06:23 PM
    Speedy Gonzalez
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    I think you are working under a bad assumption here. Can you prove that your headlight was in fact working when they were on the previous time? Maybe your switch is going bad or made poor contact, or a filament has a hairline fracture. Maybe turning them off and back on made them function properly. If it is plausible, which it absolutely is, then you have no 4th amendment case.

    Just because they worked the 2nd time does not mean they worked the first time. What is your proof other than having both light up upon turning them on again?

    Are you suggesting an officer would risk his career over a $160 fine?
  • 03-19-2016, 04:31 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    Why not? He was driving. It's fair game to see the documents.

    Using your comment it was a consensual contact vs. a detention the cop could not demand anything from the person. It is not fair game to see the documents without reasonable suspicion of a crime. A cop cannot make a stop and demand license etc. without a valid basis for the detention.

    Since your and my comment op has stated he had not stopped yet so this has not turned to a detention where there is apparently no reasonable suspicion aka unlawful. Given the use of the lights creates a scenario where a reasonable person would not believe they could walk away from the interaction hence a violation of 4th amendment rights.

    If cops only basis for detention was headlight and cop cannot articulate a reasonable justification for the detention it doesn't pass the 4th amendment requirement hence cops entire action was unlawful.

    Quote:

    Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
    View Post
    I think you are working under a bad assumption here. Can you prove that your headlight was in fact working when they were on the previous time? Maybe your switch is going bad or made poor contact, or a filament has a hairline fracture. Maybe turning them off and back on made them function properly. If it is plausible, which it absolutely is, then you have no 4th amendment case.

    Just because they worked the 2nd time does not mean they worked the first time. What is your proof other than having both light up upon turning them on again?

    Are you suggesting an officer would risk his career over a $160 fine?

    in today's world your suggestions are not plausible. The possibilities you suggest are reaching so far into unrealistic possibilities they are not likely to have happened.

    A cop does not risk his career for a stop like this. As usual, a civil rights violation means squat in court. No punitive damages means, at most, a tongue lashing for the cop from his supervisor and 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the time not even that. Cops often manufacturer excuse for stops. It happens very regularly and since there is no real fear of negative action against them, it is basically with impunity.

    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    He didn't testify the judge basically said if you can't provide insurance cards your guilty and that was it. Not much of a trial if you ask me.

    It's your typical money Hungary municipal court. Where they do whatever they can to just get you to pay. And I just don't understand how an officer can falsely claim something and disguise it aseems reasonable suspicion.



    But to make an unlawful stop just to take a swing at finding something illegal isn't unconstitutional?

    Would it matter if I had a passenger that witnessed all of this?

    the problem I see is you were basing your defense on nothing more than your statement the stop was unlawful. You have to prove your statement is in fact true. It is not up to the judge to accept your word of your claim. Constitutional violations can be very hard to prove. Many lawyers practice only this type of law because it is so specialized and should you need to avail yourself of one it will cost you hundreds of times the cost of the ticket.
  • 03-19-2016, 04:55 AM
    flyingron
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    What makes you think an officer can't ask for things in a consensual stop? You do not need to be suspected of a crime to be asked to produce your driver's license, etc...
  • 03-19-2016, 05:08 AM
    free9man
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    in today's world your suggestions are not plausible. The possibilities you suggest are reaching so far into unrealistic possibilities they are not likely to have happened.

    So you are saying that any and all cars manufactured today are essentially incapable of having faulty electrical switches/relays or that any and all bulbs manufactured for use in automobiles cannot be faulty? We don't even know what kind of truck OP was driving. It could be 40 years old for all we know and filled with aftermarket parts or had shoddy shadetree mechanic work done on it.
  • 03-19-2016, 05:17 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    What makes you think an officer can't ask for things in a consensual stop? You do not need to be suspected of a crime to be asked to produce your driver's license, etc...


    He can ask but has no right to demand so a ticket based on refusal to comply with a voluntary disclosure of a document is not a valid ticket.

    It doesn't matter here though since this was not a consensual stop so the cop has has to be able to articulate a probable cause for the detention.

    edit to correct; reasonable suspicion, not PC.

    Quote:

    Quoting free9man
    View Post
    So you are saying that any and all cars manufactured today are essentially incapable of having faulty electrical switches/relays or that any and all bulbs manufactured for use in automobiles cannot be faulty? We don't even know what kind of truck OP was driving. It could be 40 years old for all we know and filled with aftermarket parts or had shoddy shadetree mechanic work done on it.

    I am saying the possibilty of a defect such as you suggest being present and it being the only time presenting itself and immediately "repairing" itself is unrealistic. The improbability of the condition being present will not support a claim it happened here.
  • 03-19-2016, 05:46 AM
    free9man
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    I am saying the possibilty of a defect such as you suggest being present and it being the only time presenting itself and immediately "repairing" itself is unrealistic. The improbability of the condition being present will not support a claim it happened here.

    How do we know it's the only time it's happened? OP may have had this issue for a while and not known it. The issue may have just begun so it was the first time it happened. I'm not an electrical engineer but from my limited knowledge, a short does not necessarily happen EVERY time the affected switch is used. I've seen that in my own house and *gasp*, when I had a bad signal on my old Ranger. OP doesn't state that he's been religiously checking his headlights either before or after the stop so it could still be happening.
  • 03-19-2016, 06:12 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting free9man
    View Post
    How do we know it's the only time it's happened? OP may have had this issue for a while and not known it. The issue may have just begun so it was the first time it happened. I'm not an electrical engineer but from my limited knowledge, a short does not necessarily happen EVERY time the affected switch is used. I've seen that in my own house and *gasp*, when I had a bad signal on my old Ranger. OP doesn't state that he's been religiously checking his headlights either before or after the stop so it could still be happening.

    we don't know it's the only time it happened but since the state is burdened with proving their claims they will have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it is likely to have happened. Unless the state can prove it has happened before or show it is reasonable to believe the cop just happened to see the one and only time it has happened the state cannot prove its case.


    one does check their headlights religiously. Every time it gets dark they turn them on. If one does not illuminate it is quite obvious and as such, has checked them on a very regular basis, unless you want to put forth the argument op never drives when their headlights have been needed.
  • 03-19-2016, 07:22 AM
    PTPD22
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    we don't know it's the only time it happened but since the state is burdened with proving their claims they will have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it is likely to have happened. Unless the state can prove it has happened before or show it is reasonable to believe the cop just happened to see the one and only time it has happened the state cannot prove its case.

    I understand the point you are trying to make and, while it is correct (as far as it goes), it is moot. The state does not have to “prove” anything other than that the officer had a reasonable suspicion for the stop. If the cop testifies, “When the car turned the corner, I thought I saw a headlight out,” that is a reasonable suspicion. A reasonable suspicion does not have to be proven correct to be valid. The state does not have to prove, even by a preponderance of the evidence, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt, that the headlight was, in fact, out – or even that it is likely to have been out. All the state needs is a reasonable suspicion by the officer – even if that suspicion later turns out to have been mistaken.

    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    one does check their headlights religiously. Every time it gets dark they turn them on. If one does not illuminate it is quite obvious and as such, has checked them on a very regular basis, unless you want to put forth the argument op never drives when their headlights have been needed.

    Uhhhh…I have to disagree with you here. Unless one is driving on a very dark roadway (with little or no other light source), it is not at all uncommon for drivers to fail to notice a headlight out. I have pulled many people over for having a headlight out (or even not having their lights turned on at all!!) and have believed them when they told me they had been unaware of it. In fact, I have done it myself.

    The question with which I believe OP has the best chance of success is not whether or not a headlight was out. Rather, the question should be after the cop determined that his suspicion was likely mistaken (when OP turned lights back on and both were shown to be working), why did he/she not end the detention at that point. After the cop’s suspicion was reasonably alleviated, it would appear that the stop was unjustifiably prolonged with the license/registration/insurance checks. I have no idea what the case law for extending stops is in OP’s state is. But, in my state of Washington, extending the stop in this manner would be ruled impermissible.
  • 03-19-2016, 07:43 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting PTPD22
    View Post
    I understand the point you are trying to make and, while it is correct (as far as it goes), it is moot. The state does not have to “prove” anything other than that the officer had a reasonable suspicion for the stop. If the cop testifies, “When the car turned the corner, I thought I saw a headlight out,” that is a reasonable suspicion. A reasonable suspicion does not have to be proven correct to be valid. The state does not have to prove, even by a preponderance of the evidence, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt, that the headlight was, in fact, out – or even that it is likely to have been out. All the state needs is a reasonable suspicion by the officer – even if that suspicion later turns out to have been mistaken.

    Uhhhh…I have to disagree with you here. Unless one is driving on a very dark roadway (with little or no other light source), it is not at all uncommon for drivers to fail to notice a headlight out. I have pulled many people over for having a headlight out (or even not having their lights turned on at all!!) and have believed them when they told me they had been unaware of it. In fact, I have done it myself.

    The question with which I believe OP has the best chance of success is not whether or not a headlight was out. Rather, the question should be after the cop determined that his suspicion was likely mistaken (when OP turned lights back on and both were shown to be working), why did he/she not end the detention at that point. After the cop’s suspicion was reasonably alleviated, it would appear that the stop was unjustifiably prolonged with the license/registration/insurance checks. I have no idea what the case law for extending stops is in OP’s state is. But, in my state of Washington, extending the stop in this manner would be ruled impermissible.

    As I said before, and you agree with; the state has to be able to support a claim of reasonable suspicion. Given the headlights worked when the cop checked them his belief was proven invalid and any claim of reasonable suspicion removed.
    since the inspection was prior to the demand for documents the cop had no valid argument to continue to demand the Documents therefore the continued demand is unconstitutional.

    If the cop did not check the headlights he could have maintained the argument of reasonable suspicion but the cop invalidated his own argument

    as to your not having too prove the claim; the cop has to be able to articulate a valid argument for resonable suspicion. His claim was proven invalid upon the inspection of the headlights so the lawful detention ended at that time.

    i thought I saw a headlight out is not adequate. When arguing factual evidence it is subject to objection where the cop would in fact have to defend his ability to make that determination such as his position in relation to the op's car as well as obstructions and such. We are now dealing with more than a claim of reasonable suspicion but one of actual claimed evidence. That is a game changer.

    i have been responding as i read your post so my answer is disjointed but as I read to the end i see ultimately, at least in your state, you are in agreement that the ticket is not justified.
  • 03-19-2016, 01:38 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Dang I always miss the good stuff!

    So you've both answered some of the questions I had. I'm not a lawyer and generally don't push the issue but...... being pulled over in my own front yard for around 30 minutes was my last straw... Do I think a cop would risk his career over $160 court costs? I would hope not, but I've seen it first hand while growing up in a small down! Seriously how many times do you have to be told your tag light was out before you get fed up?!?!

    Regardless my whole argument was that I should have never really been stopped to begin with. At the least as one of you stated, once he saw my headlights working he should have been on his marry way! So to answer that question yes I think he falsely alleged that just to stop me and probe around in hopes of finding something illegal.

    It's a 2001 Chevrolet Suburban. Before circuit court I'll have a mechanic go through and test all of the headlights.

    My next question is what would be the best scenario for me to argue my point?
  • 03-19-2016, 01:41 PM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Case law on a very nearly identical situation
  • 03-19-2016, 03:23 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    So I would make a motion to suppress, and include this article when filing my motion?

    Like a Terry stop, the tolerable duration of police inquiries in the traffic-stop context is determined by the seizure’s “mission”—to address the traffic violation that warranted the stop, Caballes, 543 U. S., at 407, and attend to related safety concerns, infra, at 6–7. See also United States v. Sharpe, 470 U. S. 675, 685 (1985); Florida v. Royer, 460 U. S. 491, 500 (1983) (plurality opinion) (“The scope of the detention must be carefully tailored to its underlying justification.”). Because addressing the infraction is the purpose of the stop, it may “last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.” Ibid. See also Caballes, 543 U. S., at 407.
  • 03-19-2016, 03:40 PM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    You Are simply missing the point. You need to make proper motions to dismiss the ticket based on the ticket being invalid as the cop had no lawful right to detain you and demand you produce the documents he did. As such the failure to turn over your proof of insurance cannot be the basis for a valid ticket. You will also have to prove why the detention was not valid and you do that with case law of similar situations where the cops actions were deemed unlawful due to a lack of reasonable suspicion to allow for the stop. It will also require testimony of the cop stating his reasonable suspicion and the fact that suspicion was proven to be incorrect once you were stopped and that the proof the reasonable suspicion was not just was prior to being required to turn over the documents in question.

    You will also likely be faced with then situation another stated esrlier that the detention was not a legally defined detention and the exchange of documents was done willingly. That will require supporting case law to show that the circumstances involved were such that a reasonable person would not believe they had the right to refuse to comply with the cops demands.

    All all of this will have to be done in the proper form and timing to mean a thing. That is where you would likely lose even if you find supporting case law.
  • 03-19-2016, 03:43 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    As I said before, and you agree with; the state has to be able to support a claim of reasonable suspicion. Given the headlights worked when the cop checked them his belief was proven invalid and any claim of reasonable suspicion remo ved.

    That's NOT what he said. Read the part where the event that gave rise to reasonable belief can be incorrect and the detention can still be valid. An officer can be mistaken as to the light out, but so long as he had a reasonable belief at the time of the stop to believe it was out, the detention would be valid. As PTD mentioned, whether the detention could be extended beyond the determination that a light was not out is a question of state law - which we do not know. But, in general, if you have a valid detention you can then ask for other documents. In my state that would include license, registration, and insurance. It is probably much the same in the OP's state.

    A cite for inoperative headlights would have been impossible to support, but, if the OP's state law allows for the request of these documents upon a detention, then at least that part is valid.

    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    So I would make a motion to suppress, and include this article when filing my motion?


    Like a Terry stop, the tolerable duration of police inquiries in the traffic-stop context is determined by the seizure’s “mission”—to address the traffic violation that warranted the stop, Caballes, 543 U. S., at 407, and attend to related safety concerns, infra, at 6–7. See also United States v. Sharpe, 470 U. S. 675, 685 (1985); Florida v. Royer, 460 U. S. 491, 500 (1983) (plurality opinion) (“The scope of the detention must be carefully tailored to its underlying justification.”). Because addressing the infraction is the purpose of the stop, it may “last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.” Ibid. See also Caballes, 543 U. S., at 407.

    In order to make a proper motion to suppress, you will need sufficient coaching to make the proper motion - in form and content - before the court. If you are unable to make the appropriately acceptable motion, you will likely lose. Unfortunately, the cost for an attorney to do this is likely far more than the $160 you are faced with paying upon presentation of proof of insurance. So, it may come down to a really tough choice - stand your ground and risk paying the full bore of the fine (likely in excess of $160), the cost of an attorney to make the motion for you, or paying the $160 up front and move on. It may be a frustrating and un-palatable series of options, but they may be the only ones you realistically have.
  • 03-19-2016, 03:50 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    It's your typical money Hungary municipal court.

    As an aside, your state is not in Hungary (a nation in Europe). If you meant the court was money hungry, then I would ask the question what, if any, part of the fine does the court get to keep? If the court doesn’t keep any part of the fine, then it would have no incentive to rule against you just to get the fine money. That doesn’t mean the court got the ruling correct. But just assuming that the court is out for the fine may not be an accurate assumption.
  • 03-19-2016, 04:00 PM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That's NOT what he said. Read the part where the event that gave rise to reasonable belief can be incorrect and the detention can still be valid. An officer can be mistaken as to the light out, but so long as he had a reasonable belief at the time of the stop to believe it was out, the detention would be valid. As PTD mentioned, whether the detention could be extended beyond the determination that a light was not out is a question of state law - which we do not know. But, in general, if you have a valid detention you can then ask for other documents. In my state that would include license, registration, and insurance. It is probably much the same in the OP's state.

    A cite for inoperative headlights would have been impossible to support, but, if the OP's state law allows for the request of these documents upon a detention, then at least that part is valid.



    In order to make a proper motion to suppress, you will need sufficient coaching to make the proper motion - in form and content - before the court. If you are unable to make the appropriately acceptable motion, you will likely lose. Unfortunately, the cost for an attorney to do this is likely far more than the $160 you are faced with paying upon presentation of proof of insurance. So, it may come down to a really tough choice - stand your ground and risk paying the full bore of the fine (likely in excess of $160), the cost of an attorney to make the motion for you, or paying the $160 up front and move on. It may be a frustrating and un-palatable series of options, but they may be the only ones you realistically have.

    read the part that in is state if the rs is discovered to be proven invalid they must terminate the detention.
  • 03-19-2016, 04:13 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Taxing Matters
    View Post
    As an aside, your state is not in Hungary (a nation in Europe). If you meant the court was money hungry, then I would ask the question what, if any, part of the fine does the court get to keep? If the court doesn’t keep any part of the fine, then it would have no incentive to rule against you just to get the fine money. That doesn’t mean the court got the ruling correct. But just assuming that the court is out for the fine may not be an accurate assumption.

    Hungry*** my phone hate me....

    So I cant file a motion on my own? Or push for a dismissle? I'm having a hard time not trying to do this on my own. It can't get any worse than it already is.
  • 03-19-2016, 05:23 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    read the part that in is state if the rs is discovered to be proven invalid they must terminate the detention.

    I failed to read where anyone ruled that the reasonable suspicion WAS invalid. Further, how do you determine that the officer did not make a stop on the good faith belief that a light was out? It is exceedingly difficult to argue a lack of reasonable suspicion existed. What may be an issue (assuming he will pay an attorney or can get some assistance in researching the relevant case law) is whether the detention must be terminated if there is reason to believe that the RS was faulty. I am unaware of any case law, but the OP's state may have some. Additionally, even if the detention was over, there is still the possibility that the officer can request other documents from the OP. I know that out here I can ASK for anything on a consensual contact. The law will limit what I can do if he declines. Though, under the circs, I suspect that this would not be seen as a consensual encounter ... but, AL may have different standards.

    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    Hungry*** my phone hate me....

    So I cant file a motion on my own? Or push for a dismissle? I'm having a hard time not trying to do this on my own. It can't get any worse than it already is.

    You CAN file a motion on your own, but, if you do so you will be held to the same standard that a practicing attorney will be. Perhaps you can get some help at a local law library or law school.

    Oh, and a phone's auto-correct can be a royal pain in the tailpipe.
  • 03-19-2016, 05:42 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Yes I just found the address to supreme court library in Montgomery. About an hour from my home. Might make a day out of it.
  • 03-19-2016, 06:05 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post

    So I cant file a motion on my own? Or push for a dismissle? I'm having a hard time not trying to do this on my own. It can't get any worse than it already is.

    If you know how to do it and have a good argument on the law to make then sure, you can do it yourself. If you are currently represented by an attorney, though, you must first fire the attorney and have him/her file a motion to withdrew from the case. Once you are representing yourself, you can file whatever motions are appropriate yourself.

    A good motion to dismiss will cite the applicable case law that backs up your position. Just saying it's a 4th Amendment violation without citing cases that are on point doesn’t get you very far. Don’t assume the court will do the legal research for you. That is what the courts expect able attorneys to do. And pro se parties need to be able to do that too, if they wish to succeed.
  • 03-19-2016, 08:04 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    When you claim "The officer said he investigated me over for my headlight being out, and it wasn't," the court will typically want to have a hearing before offering any relief on the motion and, for a ticket, may reserve ruling on the motion until the conclusion of the officer's trial testimony instead of having a separate pretrial hearing.
  • 03-20-2016, 03:04 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I failed to read where anyone ruled that the reasonable suspicion WAS invalid. Further, how do you determine that the officer did not make a stop on the good faith belief that a light was out? It is exceedingly difficult to argue a lack of reasonable suspicion existed. What may be an issue (assuming he will pay an attorney or can get some assistance in researching the relevant case law) is whether the detention must be terminated if there is reason to believe that the RS was faulty. I am unaware of any case law, but the OP's state may have some. Additionally, even if the detention was over, there is still the possibility that the officer can request other documents from the OP. I know that out here I can ASK for anything on a consensual contact. The law will limit what I can do if he declines. Though, under the circs, I suspect that this would not be seen as a consensual encounter ... but, AL may have different standards.


    You CAN file a motion on your own, but, if you do so you will be held to the same standard that a practicing attorney will be. Perhaps you can get some help at a local law library or law school.

    Oh, and a phone's auto-correct can be a royal pain in the tailpipe.

    Once the lights were proven to be functioning the reasonable suspicion was allayed. So, rs no longer present no lawful right to continue detention.


    also to clarify; I think part of what you were referring to was my statemebt to ptd22's startement that in his state the continued detention to check documents was impermissible.
  • 03-20-2016, 03:22 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    Once the lights were proven to be functioning the reasonable suspicion was allayed. So, rs no longer present no lawful right to continue detention.

    That's not necessarily correct. AL law may say that, but, it may not. The detention based upon reasonable suspicion is not necessarily terminated if the lights appear to be working.

    Further, there may have been some other reason for the officer to have continued the detention above and beyond the lights. Since he did not testify, we do not know if there was or was not some other reason. It may cost the OP a pretty penny to "call" in this hand of poker.
  • 03-20-2016, 03:38 AM
    jk
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That's not necessarily correct. AL law may say that, but, it may not. The detention based upon reasonable suspicion is not necessarily terminated if the lights appear to be working.

    The lawful basis for the detention is proven to be invalid. Are you saying a cop can simply lie and say "I thought [whatever] and it be ruled a lawful stop and any action allowed under a reasonable suspicion detention be allowed to continue? I see this as well beyond any individual state law and well into constitutional law. The fed courts have determined one must be able to articulate rs. Fine, a mistake is considered in that determination as not invalidating the rs but I cannot see anything that would allow a mistake proven to be a mistake to simply be ignored and allow a detention to continue as if the rs was still in play. That flies in the face of the intent of allowing a stop due to rs and allows any claim of rs to allow a detention for any amount of time. Just can't agree with that.

    The special exemption of a search warrant due to rs was crafted to allow a situation where a cop had an articulable belief there was in fact a crime afoot. If the rs is clearly disproven by factual evidence there is no longer any lawful basis for any detention, period. Allowing the detention to continue based on a a claim of rs that has been clearly shown to be invalid denies one the right to freedom from unreasonable searches.
  • 03-20-2016, 08:56 PM
    Chazzey01
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That's not necessarily correct. AL law may say that, but, it may not. The detention based upon reasonable suspicion is not necessarily terminated if the lights appear to be working.

    Further, there may have been some other reason for the officer to have continued the detention above and beyond the lights. Since he did not testify, we do not know if there was or was not some other reason. It may cost the OP a pretty penny to "call" in this hand of poker.

    What other reason? The officer clearly stated the only reason for stopping me was because my headlight was out. Which it clearly was not, according to his own admittance that both lights were on and working. So enlighten me as to why "this hand of poker" could cost me more money? The officer didn't testify because the judge and prosecuter seemed to be in such a rush to shut me up that there was never really a trial. The officer didn't even remember my particular traffic stop. I overheard him tell the prosecuter that right before he frantically started reading through the file.
  • 03-20-2016, 10:10 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Appealing a Ticket Conviction by Alleging an Improper Traffic Stop
    Quote:

    Quoting Chazzey01
    View Post
    What other reason? The officer clearly stated the only reason for stopping me was because my headlight was out.

    That may be what he said at the time, but that doesn't mean he did not note something else later. Until it goes to court and he may be compelled to argue the RS, you really do not know. The officer is under no legal obligation to inform you of the reasonable suspicion for the detention.

    Quote:

    Which it clearly was not, according to his own admittance that both lights were on and working. So enlighten me as to why "this hand of poker" could cost me more money?
    Because you do not want to go to trial, you want to make a motion - an act that you admittedly do not know how to do and will cost you much more than $160 to pay someone to do on your behalf.

    Quote:

    The officer didn't testify because the judge and prosecuter seemed to be in such a rush to shut me up that there was never really a trial.
    Did you ask to go to trial? It did not sound like it from what you wrote. It sounded like you wanted to make a motion and declined to mount a defense otherwise.

    Quote:

    The officer didn't even remember my particular traffic stop. I overheard him tell the prosecuter that right before he frantically started reading through the file.
    Then you might want to take a chance on appeal and hope he has the same faulty memory if your appeal is actually a new trial as was previously indicated. Though, if he suddenly recalls the incident and is able to articulate good cause for the stop, you may be toast.
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