California
A Friend of mine lives in a storage unit!
It is not a normal home, but it has been her home for over 20 years, She initially moved in without permission, But over time, She and the management made arrangements for her to stay and serve as onsite armed security in exchange for free rent. One night some dark dressed men came into the outdoor facility after hours by getting through the locked gate or by climbing over the fence, She saw them on security cameras and steeped out of her unit to get a better view. As soon as she opened her door and walked outside she could see that they were police. They immediately detained and searched her for weapons, They discovered a concealed weapon and arrested her. She has since been charged.
I feel this charge is inappropriate because the facility was locked and she beveled it to be private at the time of the encounter.
Are there any grounds for fighting this?
Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
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02-02-2016, 08:02 AMtoadCarrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
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02-02-2016, 08:07 AMjkRe: Conceald Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
even using your argument she was outside of her "home". That removed any argument of some claim of right while a person is within their own home.
to explain a bit:
Consider each individual unit an apartment. The area outside of an apartment is not part of an apartment. Any rights a home owner may have while on their curtilage do not apply to the common areas of an apartment grouping. Their rights start and end at their door. -
02-02-2016, 11:41 AMadjusterjackRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitPossibly.Quote:
Quoting toad
CA Penal Code Section 25605 allows a person to carry "either openly or concealed, anywhere within the
citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident, any handgun."
No guarantees, but there might be a technicality in there that might help her, but she is going to need an attorney who specializes in firearms law to defend her and it's going to take a lot of money to accomplish it.
While I tend to agree with JK that she was outside her residence, she may well have been within her place of business providing security for the property. -
02-02-2016, 12:31 PMjkRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
I see the point but boy does that open a lot of cans of worms. No employment records? Nobody paid taxes on anything here? Is there any special permits or licensing required for an employer to engage an armed guard?
while it might be the lesser of two evils I would expect such a defense to be fraught with many hurdles and people with their hands out expecting money. -
02-02-2016, 12:49 PMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitIf she is living in a storage unit, then it is an illegal arrangement all around.Quote:
Quoting toad
What was she charged for?Quote:
One night some dark dressed men came into the outdoor facility after hours by getting through the locked gate or by climbing over the fence, She saw them on security cameras and steeped out of her unit to get a better view. As soon as she opened her door and walked outside she could see that they were police. They immediately detained and searched her for weapons, They discovered a concealed weapon and arrested her. She has since been charged.
How can we know whether the charges are appropriate without knowing what the charges are? The code sections she has been arrested for will be a big help.Quote:
I feel this charge is inappropriate because the facility was locked and she beveled it to be private at the time of the encounter.
Your friend needs an attorney.Quote:
Are there any grounds for fighting this?
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02-02-2016, 12:52 PMtoadIt is more comparable to a timeshare than an apartment.Agreed, However;Quote:
Quoting jk
I think there are important differences to consider. Her dwelling is more comparable to a timeshare, in that after 5:30 pm she has exclusive use of the outdoor space behind a locked gate. And she is the only onsite occupant. -
02-02-2016, 12:58 PMjkRe: It is more comparable to a timeshare than an apartment.
that doesn't make it better. In fact it removes the employment argument and the fact is; it is not legally her curtilage even in the conditions suggested.
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02-02-2016, 01:00 PMcdwjavaRe: It is more comparable to a timeshare than an apartment.Once again, WHAT HAS SHE BEEN CHARGED WITH?Quote:
Quoting toad
There are a number of potential offenses here ... not to mention that the police may very well go after the property owner as well. -
02-02-2016, 01:25 PMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitPossession of a concealed and loaded weapon,,,,Legally ownedQuote:
Quoting cdwjava
Ok, I will get it.Quote:
The code sections she has been arrested for will be a big help.
She has been assigned to a public defender.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
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02-02-2016, 01:33 PMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
There are a number of possible permutations for carrying a concealed weapon - that's why it's important to know which section.
As has been mentioned, once she left the storage unit she called "home" (arguably, it was not a home), she could be in violation of PC 26505 as she was not in her residence and likely cannot have be considered an employee. It's only a misdemeanor, so it's not likely to result in much of anything, unless she has some additional offenses, is on probation or parole, or has prior convictions for violence or felonies.
She will almost certainly NOT be permitted to return to the storage unit so you might consider helping her by arranging for housing for her. -
02-02-2016, 06:00 PMWho'sThatGuyRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
How well do you know this person?
In CA there are many things that can prohibit a person from possession of a firearm.
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag...hibcatmisd.pdf
Any person who is convicted of a felony, or any offense enumerated in Penal Code sections 29900 or 29905
• Any person who is ordered to not possess firearms as a condition of probation or other court order listed in Penal Code section 29815, subdivisions (a) and (b)
• Any person who is convicted of a misdemeanor listed in Penal Code section 29805 (refer to List of Prohibiting Misdemeanors)
• Any person who is adjudged a ward of the juvenile court because he or she committed an offense listed in Welfare and Institutions Code section 707(b), an offense described in Penal Code section 1203.073(b), or any offense enumerated in Penal Code section 29805
. Any person who is subject to a temporary restraining order or an injunction issued pursuant to Code of Civil Procedure sections 527.6 or 527.8, a protective order as defined in Family Code section 6218, a protective order issued pursuant to Penal Code sections 136.2 or 646.91, or a protective order issued pursuant to Welfare and Institutions Code section 15657.03
• Any person who is found by a court to be a danger to himself, herself, or others because of a mental illness • Any person who is found by a court to be mentally incompetent to stand trial
• Any person who is found by a court to be not guilty by reason of insanity
• Any person who is adjudicated to be a mentally disordered sex offender
• Any person who is placed on a conservatorship because he or she is gravely disabled as a result of a mental disorder, or an impairment by chronic alcoholism
• Any person who communicates a threat to a licensed psychotherapist against a reasonably identifiable victim, that has been reported by the psychotherapist to law enforcement
• Any person who is taken into custody as a danger to self or others under Welfare and Institutions Code section 5150, assessed under Welfare and Institutions Code section 5151, and admitted to a mental health facility under Welfare and Institutions Code sections 5151, 5152, or certified under Welfare and Institutions Code sections 5250, 5260, and 5270.15
• Any person who is addicted to the use of narcotics (state and federal)
• Any person who is under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year (federal)
• Any person who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions (federal)
• Any person who is an illegal alien (federal)
• Any person who has renounced his or her US Citizenship (federal)
• Any person who is a fugitive from justice (federal) -
02-04-2016, 12:10 AMtoadRe: It is more comparable to a timeshare than an apartment.25400(a)(2)Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
Thanks for the help. -
02-04-2016, 02:11 AMcdwjavaRe: It is more comparable to a timeshare than an apartment.25400. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
the person does any of the following:
(2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
She should speak with an attorney. Depending on her prior criminal history (if there is any) she could find this charged as a felony. -
02-05-2016, 05:41 PMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitWe reviewed the list, none are applicable. Thanks for the heads up.Quote:
Quoting Who'sThatGuy
Thanks for the reference.Quote:
Quoting adjusterjack
I think there are a couple reasons to doubt that a crime took place.
1. We know that the state must assert that she knew the weapon was in her pocket. Even if the state fails to recognized her unit as a residents, She had lawful possession of the space which includes a right to conceal a weapon while in it. If she was in her unit with a weapon in pocket and fell asleep due to illness tiredness, or any reason, that is not a crime. And if she was suddenly woken by police breaching the gate it is understandable that she would not have immediately remembered what a weapon was in her pocket especially if she exited the unit prior to fully waking up.
additionally,
2. Regardless of if she is legally considered to be an employee by the state, She clearly had possession of the gated space and was permitted to secure the facility after-hours. Even if the state took the position that she was not employed or that she was not there by right, they would still need to prove that the defendant knew her possession of the premises was unlawful. So long as the owner allowed her the privilege or option to control the grounds, "regardless of if it was for just compensation" or even in a case of legal adverse possession, It would not be a crime to carry a weapon during the commencement of such activity's. In fact, depending on the neighborhood it may be advisable.
Do you think my doubts that a crime occurred is reasonable? -
02-05-2016, 07:10 PMWho'sThatGuyRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit1. I'm sure it would be illegal for someone to establish residency within a storage unit. The fire department, building inspector nor the city has granted this space to be a dwelling. And even if it weren't illegal, you would need the building manager or owner to testify in court about the residency. You would need a copy of a lease. And it would be very helpful if she can provide mail in her name for that address delivered from the U.S. Postal Service.Quote:
Quoting toad
So the manager may just open a can of worms for himself if you try to establish residency in court.
2. If she try's the employment route, it would be helpful to have a W2, or pay stub. I'm sure the IRS doesn't want to hear that she is working to pay her rent and that the landlord isn't paying workers comp nor taxes for her and she isn't claiming the free room as income. -
02-07-2016, 03:47 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitYou may be correct, But, your statement implies that it is possible.Quote:
Quoting Who'sThatGuy
I need your opinion, I challenging your view though, because; I think you got that wrong and an American's freedom is on the line.
Please help me here. Let me know if you truly think I am way off the mark.
The way I see it,,,,
"Section 25605 (b)" basically says:
".......The restrictions shall not apply to a legal resident's place of residence, ....."
So in order to be exempt the person must be A LEGAL US RESIDENT However; It dose not require that the person reside in a LEGAL dwelling unit.
The right to bear arms is a constitutional right which generally apply's to ware they reside provided it is on private land and not in an automobile, Thankfully the exemption is applicable to those who reside in substandard structures, and in structures not originally purpose built as dwellings. These rights seem to coexists with the community's right to limit or deny the use of some structures as dwellings, The exemption rights protect unwanted, and squatter type residents just the same as it does for conventional dwellers. This right exists until a residency is extinguished either voluntarily, or by court order.
The 2nd amendment rights reflected in the states exemptions are more relevant than the local zoning ordinances. Any enforcement of local zoning laws need to be commenced in a way that the state laws are not usurped and without infringing on constitutional rights.
For example, If a tenant occupied a conventional house and the structure sustained damage to the roof, and that damage caused the structure to fall below the community's minimum housing standards, the police could not arbitrarily decide that the structure ceased to be a residence knock on the door and start arresting occupants for having weapons. I find this to be true even if the residents Knew of the deficiency and were given written notice. And even in a cases ware a landlord expressed disapproval of the continued use in writing, the owner or community leaders would still need to give proper legal notice of there intent to forcibly abate the use, and provide a specific amount of time to comply and allow the occupants an opportunity to challenge such demands in court.
Bear in mind these actions would only be appropriate if someone wanted to abate the use in the first place.
I hope I got that right, or I need to fix my roof this weekend :) -
02-07-2016, 04:24 AMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
It will be interesting to see if the property owners will acknowledge her "residence" in a storage unit as that will open them up to potential civil and criminal penalties. And the court may not see the unlawful occupation of a storage unit as a residence as qualifying. But, as she was NOT INSIDE HER RESIDENCE when found with the firearm, that exception is moot.
Now, she can try and argue that this was her place of business, but, absent some proof of her employment or the owners' acknowledgement of her employment (again, opening them up to civil and/or criminal penalties - much larger ones), then that argument, too, will fall flat.
I will predict that her attorney will seek a plea deal that may minimize or eliminate any jail time, but it will still be a guilty plea. -
02-07-2016, 05:02 AMjkRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
It doesn't say legal US resident. It says "legal resident". That is speaking to a persons status as a resident where they are. It is to differentiate them from a trespasser or squatter or any other situation where there is no legal residency established. It has nothing to do with being a legal US resident.
That can still be interpreted different ways.
1. You cannot legally reside in a storage unit so therefor you cannot be a legal resident
2. You are or aren't a legal resident in the pertinent location. The problem with this definition it ignores whether one can actually legally reside in the location.
You can chase statutory definition and case law and probably find the accepted definition. -
02-07-2016, 08:23 AMMr. KnowitallRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitI have instant skepticism here. I find it exceptionally unlikely that the storage company set her up with the ability to monitor its security cameras from inside a storage unit.Quote:
Quoting toad
No, her storage unit is nothing like a timeshare.Quote:
Quoting toad
You told us, "They immediately detained and searched her for weapons, They discovered a concealed weapon and arrested her", and I doubt that if she tries to lie by claiming that she was brandishing the gun, people will believe her over the officers who searched her and discovered the weapon.Quote:
Quoting toad
To the extent that argument might apply to the interior of her unit, it does not apply to the exterior -- where she was caught with the concealed gun and arrested.Quote:
Quoting toad
Your story before was, "She saw them on security cameras and steeped out of her unit to get a better view", something she obviously did not do in her sleep. Are you here to try to help her come up with a convincing lie?Quote:
Quoting toad
Says... you?Quote:
Quoting toad
It would, of course, be interesting to know what she told the police when the caught her with the firearm -- whether she simply told them that she was living unlawfully in the unit, or whether she told a more involved story about being an off-the-books employee providing armed security. If she made any such claims, it would be interesting to know whether the owner of the storage facility backed her story up, in full or in part, or said that they had no idea that she was living in her storage unit. But until you share those important facts with us, we are left to guess.
Being lawfully present on the premises is a different matter than having lawful possession of the premises. If I go to Wal-Mart to shop, and am lawfully present in their store, I have no argument that I lawfully possess the store. I can work there stocking shelves, and I still don't lawfully possess the store. I think it's more than safe to infer that your friend had not complied with licensing requirements to be an armed security guard even with an openly displayed weapon, let alone a concealed weapon.Quote:
Quoting toad
Nonsense. A property owner cannot disregard the law when hiring armed security guards.Quote:
Quoting toad
The statute says, "any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state", so what it is actually doing is carving out an exception that applies only to adults lawfully present in the U.S.Quote:
Quoting jk
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02-07-2016, 08:44 AMjkRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
Thanks K. I wasn't going to read the statute. I figured op was simply attempt to twist things to find some bs excuse why this was legal. I simply read what he posted and what he posted does not say what he said, at least without the further statements you have included. ��
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02-08-2016, 12:38 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitI think we are in agreement on that. I think you could even take your point one step further and say, that people cannot break into a vacant home and legally live there either.Quote:
Quoting jk
But when I reed the law, I still think it protects those who end up living inside of storage units which they legally possess.
Would you mind looking at that again? Thanks (:
25605 (b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, a handgun within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident. -
02-08-2016, 02:52 AMjkRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
For you want to argue inside the unit was her residence, fine. Everything else applies to outside of her little cube.
To argue her place of business; you need to define that. I suspect that would refer to her business; not while working at the business of another. If true, this is out the door.
Private property lawfully possessed; here you keep wanting to argue she was a hired guard. An employee does not lawfully possess the property they are guarding. The possession is referring to things like a home or building they actually have a leasehold on.
So, once she stepped outside of the unit itself, she loses all rights to possess a gun. -
02-08-2016, 04:06 PMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
Has the person that has the authority to hire a security guard backed up her story ? What proof do you have if they have ?
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02-18-2016, 12:39 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitSorry for the delay, I have sort of given up on this forum. I was depressed partly because I feel beet down by some of the comments on here, Although I may have deserved it. I'm a bit overwhelmed by how people tend to view arrested people as guilty people. I may have acted arrogantly, or argumentative. I'm sorry if i did, This is a sad situation to me. And I truly believe she is innocent. I feel she is not a perfect person, and lived a poor life which is unwise and perhaps a sin, but I don't think she committed a crime. It is sad that one is only presumed innocent until proven to be out of money. Although that sounds funny, I believe it. If you would like to help me, I appreciate it. If you think she deserves jail time or if you don't like me or my style, or if you don't like guns, or poor people, that's OK, But please understand I am human and i'm not emotionally ready to deal with strong opposition. I am seeking help to improve the situation.Quote:
Quoting Mercy&Grace
To answer your question: No, She has not asked anyone to back her story. "I understand this sounds unbelievable,
She was given permission to live on the property by the owner. And The owner did ask her to keep an eye on the property at night. I understand if you don't believe it. but the fact of the matter is, the property suffers from repetitive theft crimes. People often break into the property at night and get into storage units to steel property. Those people deserve to go to jail but rarely do.
The fact is, the owner didn't like people breaking in to the property at night, breaking doors and steeling stuff. They were loosing customers because of it.
Again, this may sound nuts to you, but it is just the way it is. The owner, did get quotes for armed security. The cost was more than the budget could justify I didn't see the quote but I estimate the cost to hire an armed guard overnight would be $20 an hour or $6,000 a month. The owner decided not to hire those companies do to the cost. My friend was staying in her unit every day until 6pm closing time. Then every night she would leave the property, fined a parking lot and sleep in her car. Then in the morning she would come back to be with her belongings. Over time she became friends with the owner and staff. Slowly she started helping and doing odd jobs for them, "sometimes for pay with a real paycheck, sometimes for free rent, other times for favors". Eventually they grew to trust her. she would help secure units after they were broken into, One day after doing work on the property, the owner approached her and offered that instead of leaving to go sleeping in a car, why don't you just stay here. She was so happy because she was inside the gate and able to sleep inside of a structure! And with all her belongings! and on a bed! She was super happy and expressed a willingness to do any favor if they would allow her to stay. The owner asked her to keep an eye on the property at night. She jumped at the opportunity! He liked that she was armed and expressed approval. I know it sounds odd at first. but it is just the way it is. It was based on a relationship of favors and trust developed over time, and based on the needs of both parties. There relationship has been deteriorating lately and I don't think the owner would want to say much in regards to the arrangement. -
02-18-2016, 06:13 AMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
I don't think anyone is saying she is some foul and nefarious evildoer, but, the fact remains that she is likely to face the consequences for at least the illegal possession of a concealed firearm. And, the fact still remains that she was in an unlawful living situation and carried a firearm, concealed, where she had no lawful authority to do so. As with any criminal allegation, if it is filed by the DA, she will have to defend herself in court. Because it is a misdemeanor, she should also be eligible for legal counsel paid for by the state.
She may have had no better option for a roof over head, but that does not make the situation legal. She may have not intentionally meant to break the law when she concealed a gun and walked outside her storage unit, but, she did and she will have to deal with that.
As I previously mentioned, the most likely end result here will be a plea to probation and - probably - no jail time. -
02-18-2016, 08:07 AMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
You have to realize that the laws are the same for everyone. It doesn't matter if someone is homeless or they live in a mansion, the laws apply to both. How punishment is carried out may vary, but that depends on things like criminal history. It also doesn't matter if someone knew they were committing a crime or not, when it comes to be charged. Or if someone told them they had permission to do certain things.
It may or may not matter to some degree if your friend had permission to be there. But, if it matters, the person that gave the permission will have to testify in court or possibley give a written statement. Your friend just saying it, won't make any difference. I am assuming since they haven't been charged with tresspassing or something similiar, that the person in authority hasn't pressed or agreed to thoe charges. You also have to keep in mind that the permission that may have been given your friend is very limited. Permission to be on the property at night is one thing, but that doesn't matter when it comes to having a gun. You also need to realize that under the circumstances, it is possible that the owner could be get into trouble under the circumstances. So the owner or person that told them they could stay there may not tell the truth.
I feel for those that are homeless and those that are poor and so do the others here. But, the laws don't care if someone is homeless or poor. Laws don't have emotions. Where is your friend living now ? Do you know if she has meet with her attorney aand if so what does the attorney say ? When is her court date ? -
02-21-2016, 12:49 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitFirst off, thanks for helping.Quote:
Quoting Mercy&Grace
1. I'm surprised its so difficult to even establish that it could be legal for her to have a weapon on private property. If there is no legal way to have a gun outside then there is no point to proving anything.
FIREARMS IN THE HOME, BUSINESS OR AT THE CAMPSITE
Unless otherwise unlawful, any person over the age of 18 who is not prohibited from
possessing firearms may have a loaded or unloaded firearm at his or her place of residence,
temporary residence, campsite or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the
person. Any person engaged in lawful business (including nonprofit organizations) or any
officer, employee or agent authorized for lawful purposes connected with the business may
have a loaded firearm within the place of business ..... (Pen. Code, §§ 25605 & 26035.)
2. The sad thing is her innocents is seemingly based on future testimony and the memory of someone with a motive to be forget. Seems to me she is being presumed guilty until someone is willing to admit otherwise.
Some may say she should have gotten a written agreement. Homeless persons seeking to trade service for shelter don't usually get that in writing. Asking for a written agreement could have ended it altogether.
If I ask permission to wash your windshield for $0.25 a day and you agree. Its an agreement even if you only agree because you feel sorry for me. Now imagine a month goes by and I show up asking you to sign a contract, Obviously you would tell me to go away. Then several years pass and you are hauled to court to testify about the agreement. In preparation your lawyer says you could be in violation of minimum wage laws. I would not be surprised if you had a hard time remembering our agreement.
Hope i'm not being to argumentative, I'm just upset with the system, and the lack of noticeable presumption of innocents but rather what feels like a requirement to prove ones innocence in this case.
I seriously believe she is technically innocent and I think she did nothing immoral or I would not bother to help.
I'm looking for help.
Thanks in advance. -
02-21-2016, 12:58 AMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
However, she was not INSIDE her home, business, or a campsite. But, as I mentioned, absent a significant criminal past or some other aggravating factor, chances are a plea deal akin to a slap on the wrist (i.e. probation and a fine) are about all she is likely to face. There is always the small chance that the DA will not file at all simply due to staffing and budget constraints.
Even if the owner admits to a crime and agrees he allowed her to stay there (in writing or in person), that does not magically give her the right to live there or to carry a concealed weapon on the property.
About the only help you can provide her is to suggest she speak only to her attorney and listen to that attorney's advise ... anything she talks to YOU about CAN be used against her if YOU would be called to the stand to testify. -
02-21-2016, 02:08 PMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitThe storage unit that she was staying in was Not a residence or campsite. She doesn't own nor did she have lawful possesson of the property. She was Not engaged in lawful business nor was she an officer, employee, or agent authorized for lawful purposes connected with the business. Paying someone 25 cents to wash a windshield is Not the same thing as asking someone to guard property and them using a gun to do so. In order for someone to be considered an officer, employee or agent authorized for lawful purposes connected with the business, certain rules must be followed that in the situation were not.Quote:
Quoting toad
Sadly, people do take advantage of the homeless and those that are having hard times. That is why a written agreement is important. The person that asked her to do this knew that he was breaking the law by asking her to do it and allowing her to stay in the storage unit. He didn't do it to help her out, he did it to help himself out and to not have to pay someone for doing the job. He remembers, but he isn't going to testify to what he did or give a written statement because he will end up in more trouble than he may already be in. If he was an honest person, he wouldn't have taken advatage of her and her situation. I don't think she knew she was doing anything wrong, but that is not an excuse fo rbreaking the law. On the other hand the person that asked her to do this, did know.
For what it's worth, the person that asked her to do this will sow what they have reaped, one day. She has to deal with the legal system on earth, but I believe that God Is In Heaven and He will turn this situation into something that will benefit her in the long run. She nor you may be able to see it before it happens, but the Lord has a way of righting wrongs that have been done to us. -
02-21-2016, 05:53 PMjkRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
They will reap (harvest) what they have sown (planted). Ya got it backwards there. Before you can harvest you have to plant.
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02-21-2016, 06:57 PMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
jk, Thank you. I apologize for my mistake. I need to stop typing when I get really tired.
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02-23-2016, 05:22 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
First of all thank you for your time, I would like to make a case for why this whole thing should be dismissed, please don't be offended if I test your statements.
I think it is clear to see that rules have been broken. Not sure, but I feel this contributes to a feeling that laws were broken, and if a crime was committed, she looks like a law breaker and is probably "guilty". I think it is easy to loose track of the importance of determining if the exact crime occurred as charged, or more importantly, if it can be proven. Just to be clear, I don't intend to help guilty people. But at the same time I believe people do not need to prove there innocents in this country.
Seems like you are saying he found a way to get her to do a job. I hope I'm not unreasonably twisting words here, but doing a job and being an employee seem quite similar to me. I'm not ready to say she is an employee. I don't want to argue on that point. I already understand it is easy to argue that she was not an employee. I am sure plenty of people could hammer me with countless points outlining how and why she was not an employee. I am sure some could site rules, or employment procedures that were not followed. I don't really need that. I got it, Those things were noted and contributed to her being arrested in the first place. I do think arguments could be made ether way to some degree though. I can see it would not be easy to convince this community that it was an employee employer relationship. In fact, think it would be easier to argue that she was not an employee on the surface.Quote:
Quoting Mercy&Grace
My question, or contention is that the state would have a difficult time proving to me that an employee / employer relationship did not exist to some degree. Specificity I think the state would have a hard time explaining why she was paid with a paycheck at times, Why she was permitted to stay overnight. Why she was given free rent in exchange for helping. Why she was asked to cut off locks, why they told customers she was night security? Why she was doing jobs. Why they were Ok with her walking around with a gun? Why wasn't she charged with trespassing. Why did she say she was a security guard upon arrest? Was she in an abusive Employee/employer, Landlord /tenant relationship. And If she was not working for the business, Why didn't they call the police and kick her out for cuing off locks and working on the place?
I would weigh this against: Why wasn't she paid property? Why didn't she contact the labor board? Why would she work without seeing a regular paycheck? Why didn't she have workmans comp? Why were so many things undocumented?
I turned to the states website and the Feds to try to define Employee, The state and federal government define it differently at different times and under different circumstances. They mainly compare employee to contractor but they do attempt to define it.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf
(Quote)
Today’s workplace includes a variety of
workers in contingent arrangements—independent
contractors, leased employees, temporary employees,
on-call workers, and more—perceived
to be a result of employers’ desire to reduce labor
costs and employees’ desire to increase their flexibility,
among other things..................
........But how does Federal law treat workers in contingent
and alternative work arrangements? That
is, are such workers viewed as employees who
are entitled to legal protections under Federal legislation?...........
..................The question “Is a worker an employee?” may
seem like a simple one to answer on its surface.
The dictionary definition of “employee” says
succinctly that an employee is “a person who
works for another in return for financial or other
compensation.”3 Under that definition, independent
contractors would appear to be employees.
However, the legal definition of “employee” is
concerned with more than the pay received by a
worker for services provided. Black’s Law Dictionary
defines “employee” as “a person in the
service of another under any contract of hire,
express or implied, oral or written, where the employer
has the power or right to control and direct
the employee in the material details of how
the work is to be performed.”4.....................
.....................Determining a worker’s status
The potential benefits to both employers and workers of the
proper characterization of the working relationship raises the
question, How is the legal determination made as to whether a
worker is an employee or an independent contractor? Generally,
the totality of the circumstances—that is, all the conditions
under which a person is working—governs the characterization
of that person as an employee or an independent
contractor; the label a company places on the worker has
no bearing on the matter. Again generally, a person is an employee
if the employer has the right to control the person’s
work process, whereas a worker is classified as an independent
contractor if the employer does not control the process,
but dictates only the end result or product of the work. Note
that the employer does not actually have to control the work
process: the mere ability of the employer to take control is
sufficient to create an employer-employee relationship.......................
It goes on for 11 pages explaining this topic.
The Labor Commissioner has this:
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_indep...contractor.htm
(Quote)
There is no set definition of the term "independent contractor" for all purposes, and the issue of whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor depends upon the particular area of law to be applied. For example, in a wage claim where employment status is an issue, DLSE will often use the five-prong economic realities test to decide the issue. However, in a separate matter before a different state agency with the same parties and same facts, and employment status again being an issue, that agency may be required to use a different test, for example, the "control test," which may result in a different determination. Thus, it is possible that the same individual will be considered an employee for purposes of one law and an independent contractor under another.
This is confusing enough to me, I think it is irrelevant what the employer chooses to labels her as it is irrelevant to the definition of an employee. Failure of an employer to verify employment would seem to invite major civil liability in this case though.
I hope you agree and can give me some pointers on which of my points hold water if any. I feel I'm the only one who doesn't think she is guilty, and that is scary to me. I'm a little scared of your potential backlash,,, so if you disagree please be nice (:
Thanks
and
good night. -
02-23-2016, 09:16 AMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
She is/was not a Security Guard. The State Of California has requirements for Security Guards and based on what you have said here she doesn't meet those requirements. So she couldn't be employed as a Security Guard. If she wasn't employed as a Security Guard, what was she doing there ? She said she was their Security Guard, what evidence does she have of that ?
In a court of law, evidence is required. If she had not been armed and was saying that she was there as an employee, what proof does she have ? Does she have a copy of the checks she was paid with ? What proof does she have that she was asked to cut locks ? What proof does she have that customers were told that she was a night Ssecurity Guard ? Although cutting off locks and telling customers that she was a night Security Guard in no ways means that she is employed. What proof does she have that they owners were ok with her walking around with a gun ? Her being in an abusive employee/employer relationship has nothing to do with what she is charged with, but what proof is there if that ? There is no tenant/landlord relationship. Her saying what someone told her or what someone said to others is not evidence.
I commend you for trying to help your friend. But, I don't see how you're going to be of help to her trying to comprehend the laws as a layman. You aren't being objective, which is understandable. The only thing that you're going to accomplish with this is getting yourself and her worked up and upset. I would like to make a few suggestions. Try and help her find a permanet place to live. The homeless are given preference with government housing. Going to a shelter is the quickest way to do this. Although, you don't have to be living in a shelter to be considered homeless. If she has mental and/or physical problems, find some places that she can go for outpatient treatment. If she isn't able to work because of mental and/or physiclal conditions, help her apply for SSI or SSDI at your local Social Security Office. -
02-23-2016, 09:57 AMmmmagiqueRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
If (when) she gets out, perhaps the storage unit owner could rent your friend a small apartment and give her a small salary in exchange for her (legally) guarding the premises overnights. That would be a win/win for both of them. The owner wouldn't have to pay anywhere near $6000 per month, and your friend would have a safe place to sleep. (during the day, as she'd be working at night.)
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02-23-2016, 01:55 PMWho'sThatGuyRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
In the State of California, security guards must be licensed and must apply for that license from the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS).
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02-23-2016, 03:35 PMMercy&GraceRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
Are you sure that she has been living in the storage space and thinking that she is working there as a Security Guard for over 20 years ? That is a very, very long time for something like this not to be caught.
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02-29-2016, 11:42 PMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitYes. I have known her since before she moved in. They agreed for her to stay in her unit overnight in exchange for her help with the property, and to make it easier for her to keep a watchful eye at night. One of her tasks was to report people who tried to stay without permission.Quote:
Quoting Mercy&Grace
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02-29-2016, 11:52 PMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitDoesn't make her crime legal, nor does it mean that the property was also her residence for purposes of carrying concealed. Her "employment" and residence were both unlawful.Quote:
Quoting toad
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03-01-2016, 12:37 AMtoadRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage UnitFirst of all I was answering the question.Quote:
Quoting cdwjava
Second,
I think all crimes are by definition illegal?
I am unaware of any law or case law that stipulates that the employment or agent need to meet specific criteria such as w2, the state does recognize employment through verbal agreements.
When I read the law at: http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag...orms/hscsg.pdf it states:
"....any officer, employee or agent authorized for lawful purposes connected with the business may
have a loaded firearm......"
You may know more than me but, just reading that and knowing nothing more I don't see a crime. Storage unit business are a form of lawful business, working on storage unit property to improve or secure it is also lawful purpose, the fact that it was undocumented and not compliant with every law dose not seem to make the business or the purpose of the business unlawful to me. If the law said Lawfully employed that might be different, but it says "Employed for lawful purposes".
Seems to me if I authorize you, a former police officer as my agent to look over my property, You have the right to do it.
I appreciate your input but, I don't see your position sported in the actual text in the law. I'm not saying it is not there or that you are wrong, I'm Just saying I don't see it spelled out in the law. -
03-01-2016, 01:40 AMcdwjavaRe: Carrying a Concealed Weapon While Living in a Storage Unit
What it "seems" to you does not make it lawful.
HERE is what the state has to prove (from the state of CA jury instructions):
The defendant is charged [in Count ] with unlawfully carrying a concealed firearm on (his/her) person [in violation of Penal Code section
25400(a)(2)].
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:
1. The defendant carried on (his/her) person a firearm capable of being concealed on the person;
2. The defendant knew that (he/she) was carrying a firearm;
AND
3. It was substantially concealed on the defendant’s person.
Let's see ... one, check ... two, check ... three, check.
Let's see ... defenses:
Belief she was in grave danger (PC 25600) ... nope.
Possessed on defendant's own residence, property, or place of business (PC 25605) ... nope.
Transporting the weapon between those places listed above (PC 25525) ... nope.
Involved in the production of a television show or movie (PC 25510) ... nope.
Peace officer or other duly authorized active duty or retired official permitted to carry a concealed firearm (PC 25450) ... nope.
So, being permitted to trespass and reside unlawfully does not magically transform those grounds into HER place of business. It is only the place that she was not kicked out of. Sorry. Quid pro quo - an illegal arrangement, at that - does not make it HER place of business.
Quite frankly, this is not going to turn into a huge deal. If he had possessed a pocket knife with the blade extended and in her pocket, or a screwdriver tucked concealed in her waistband she would be facing much more serious penalties than she will for carrying a loaded and concealed firearm. It is likely that a plea to probation, a fine, and perhaps a few days of jail time (maybe) is in her future. Fortunately for her she left the screwdriver in the storage unit.