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Township Claims That it Does Not Have Copies of Inspection Reports

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  • 01-25-2016, 12:07 PM
    trevor463
    Township Claims That it Does Not Have Copies of Inspection Reports
    I will try to keep this brief. (Edit: This is in state of NJ).

    Back in 2014, I put in a couple of complaints to the local township construction office (they are the building inspections people) regarding conditions in an apartment complex. One of the complaints was minor, but the other ended up being a big deal.

    In 2015, I requested from the construction office copies of the relevant documentation from these inspections. I kept getting put off over a period of weeks. Finally, I put in an open records request.

    I (only) then received a reply in a day or two that "We do not have any permits or inspections showing on our system related to [my complaints] in 2014.."

    This is hard to believe. One of these complaints was a serious structural safety issue throughout the apartment complex, and involved extensive inspections and repairs over a period of months. I had emailed the construction official (inspector) while this was going on in 2014 and requested a copy of any reports. He had replied and said that the issue was still ongoing, but that he would provide the results after everything was done. I found out later that he had left his position shortly after all this concluded.

    I guess my question is... are these townships required to generate/keep copies of inspection reports, work ordered, etc., in cases like this? I did briefly look into this, but so far, I seemed to only find requirements for documentation for inspections of NEW construction. Thanks.
  • 01-25-2016, 01:08 PM
    L-1
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    I'm just going to hazard a guess here as a 33 year retired government bureaucrat.

    "...the issue was still ongoing..." usually means the employee hasn't written any reports yet in connection with the matter at hand.

    If the employee left his position shortly thereafter, it could be that prior to his departure he never completed any paperwork at all on this issue, hence, no records exist. It doesn't happen that often but I have seen it occur.
  • 01-25-2016, 01:39 PM
    trevor463
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    "...the issue was still ongoing..." usually means the employee hasn't written any reports yet in connection with the matter at hand.

    No, the inspections and remediation were indeed still ongoing. He had done a preliminary inspection of a random sampling of units, and found much wrong. At the point I had contacted him, he was coming back within a week (and did) to perform a comprehensive inspection of the entire complex.

    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    If the employee left his position shortly thereafter, it could be that prior to his departure he never completed any paperwork at all on this issue, hence, no records exist. It doesn't happen that often but I have seen it occur.

    He would have still had SOME documentation.

    I did a web search for the inspector involved some time ago. It seems he has decades of experience, sits on one or more professional boards, has testified as an expert witness. I dealt with him twice via email, and also saw/overheard him do his inspections in my area of the complex. He was very diligent and professional. Did what he said what he would do. Assured me confidentiality (even though I didn't care). Given this, the serious safety issues involved, and the extent of the work ($$$) ordered, I find it really, really hard to believe that there was no documentation generated and handed over. The people I have dealt with in that construction office since he left didn't seem too bright or competent. Their handling of my request for information was odd. I suspect laziness/incompetence/misconduct on their part, not the inspector's.

    Thanks.
  • 01-25-2016, 01:53 PM
    L-1
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    OK.
  • 01-25-2016, 04:32 PM
    budwad
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    If you have a complaint or want to check into this further, you can contact the Division of Codes and Standards or the dept. of Code Official Information or the Construction Reporter at the Department of Community Affairs in Trenton.

    As an aside, we used to have a building inspector that would never look up (something to do with his neck I guess). He would do his inspection and then rip the number off the inspection sticker and staple it to your application folder. That was the extent of the report. If he found anything that needed changing, he would say, "fix it or I will get you the next time." He never came back to see if it was fixed and by the time the next inspection was due, it would be covered up but he would ask, "I remember you had something that you had to fix. Did you fix it?" Of course I did.
  • 01-25-2016, 05:43 PM
    trevor463
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    Quote:

    Quoting budwad
    View Post
    If you have a complaint or want to check into this further, you can contact the Division of Codes and Standards or the dept. of Code Official Information or the Construction Reporter at the Department of Community Affairs in Trenton.

    Thanks, but I think you have gotten off track from my question. My question was one about the record keeping requirements on the part of the construction office in the local township, not about building codes or inspector licensing. The inspection occurred in response to a tenant complaint regarding serious potential hazards at an existing, occupied apartment complex. This was not new construction, or an inspection for a certificate of occupancy.

    Quote:

    Quoting budwad
    View Post
    As an aside, we used to have a building inspector that would never look up (something to do with his neck I guess). He would do his inspection and then rip the number off the inspection sticker and staple it to your application folder. That was the extent of the report. If he found anything that needed changing, he would say, "fix it or I will get you the next time." He never came back to see if it was fixed and by the time the next inspection was due, it would be covered up but he would ask, "I remember you had something that you had to fix. Did you fix it?" Of course I did.

    Per my response to L-1, the inspector here was definitely not like this. Furthermore, this wasn't a standard inspection (such as for a certificate of occupancy). The inspection occurred because of a complaint of a serious structural failure, and a concern that there might be more on the property. Even a lazy, careless, etc. inspector would be on notice that he could not just rubber stamp this. Finally, the inspector was warned that he was being contacted because the property ownership/management could not be trusted to address the problem, despite its seriousness.
  • 01-25-2016, 05:52 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    You can ask the agency about its policies for creating and retaining records and, from there, determine if the agency followed its rules in relation to the records that might have been generated from your complaints, but apparently were not. Of course, nothing in that is going to make records suddenly appear if they weren't in fact created.
  • 01-25-2016, 05:59 PM
    L-1
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    My whole point was:

    1. Reports are often not written until a project is completed because there are too many variables. Sometimes an author will wait until the event is over to write his report, so he doesn't have to go back, amend or re-write things.

    2. If you have multiple projects going, sometimes you just can't complete them all and get every report written before your employment ends. When that happens, things get left for the next guy to piece together and try to finish. In turn, some reports may never get written.

    But of course, you know best.
  • 01-25-2016, 08:25 PM
    trevor463
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    You can ask the agency about its policies for creating and retaining records and, from there, determine if the agency followed its rules in relation to the records that might have been generated from your complaints, but apparently were not.

    Thanks. A good idea, but...

    1) The "agency" is a small local township construction office with an administrative lady and 2-3 inspectors (electrical, building, plumbing), one or more of whom may be part-time or contract.

    2) "Policies"? I think they MIGHT have some semi-standard ways of doing things.

    3) It would be a waste of time to ask. As stated, I put in several records requests directly to the construction office over a period of about two months, and kept getting put off. It was only after I put in a formal records request to the township's designated record custodian that I got a (prompt) response from that same construction office. Why? Because the state law requires that prompt response. That is why I was wondering if anyone knew of any state requirements pertaining to record keeping (vs. record disclosure) as applies here.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Of course, nothing in that is going to make records suddenly appear if they weren't in fact created.

    Well, that's the point. The inspector almost certainly created records. Did the construction office keep or maintain them? Were they required to by law?

    Note the wording of their reponse to my open records request... ""We do not have any permits or inspections showing on our system..." OK, do they have relevant records not "on the system"?

    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    My whole point was:

    1. Reports are often not written until a project is completed because there are too many variables. Sometimes an author will wait until the event is over to write his report, so he doesn't have to go back, amend or re-write things.

    In your previous post, I undertood you to mean that the inspector said that the effort was ongoing as an excuse to put off providing what I had requested.

    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    2. If you have multiple projects going, sometimes you just can't complete them all and get every report written before your employment ends. When that happens, things get left for the next guy to piece together and try to finish. In turn, some reports may never get written.

    I have no knowledge that the inspector left his position without adequate time to wrap this up. He might have left a couple of months afterwards for all I know.

    Even if he left without actually writing a "report", anything he left for the next guy would be "records". I did request all relevant documentation, although I don't know if the inspector's notes, etc. would be subject to open records laws.

    I would think that the township would keep records for their own CYA. If there is a problem with an injury or death later, or if the property owner wanted to contest the findings because of the substantial hassle and cost, I would think that the township would want to have all the documentation available.


    Quote:

    Quoting L-1
    View Post
    But of course, you know best.

    I honestly don't get this.
  • 01-25-2016, 09:58 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Township is Claiming They Don't Have Inspection Reports
    Quote:

    Quoting trevor463
    View Post
    The inspector almost certainly created records.

    Because... you say so.
    Quote:

    Quoting trevor463
    Did the construction office keep or maintain them?

    According to them, no.
    Quote:

    Quoting trevor463
    Were they required to by law?

    Only if they existed.

    You are free to litigate your public records request, and to attempt to prove that the records exist and are being wrongfully withheld.
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